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22:07:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
22:07:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
22:07:48 <trackbot> Date: 08 November 2017
22:08:06 <npdoty_> Meeting: Decentralized Social Networking & Games
22:08:11 <npdoty_> chair: cwebber2
22:08:18 <npdoty_> [introductions]
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22:11:52 <npdoty_> https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
22:11:53 <Loqi> [Christopher Allan Webber] ActivityPub
22:12:11 <npdoty_> cwebber2: actors can send messages to the rest of the world and an inbox to receive messages from outside
22:12:19 <npdoty_> ... activities can include notes, likes, shares, etc.
22:13:05 <npdoty_> ... not too far away from the old-school idea of MUDs etc. where actors take actions (pick up book, etc.)
22:13:20 <npdoty_> ... have more interactive spaces, a cyberpunk future where you participate with objects
22:13:54 <npdoty> scribenick: npdoty
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22:14:29 <npdoty> https://octodon.social/web/getting-started
22:14:31 <Loqi> woot
22:15:20 <npdoty> cwebber2: demonstration of mastodon, two different social network users on two different servers
22:17:45 <npdoty> christopher_allen: what are the possibilities for "porting" an account to another server?
22:18:10 <npdoty> nolan: only informal solutions like changing their "names" to indicate moved accounts
22:18:37 <npdoty> cwebber2: Social Web Incubator Community Group is covering that topic
22:20:45 <npdoty> cwebber2: private messages aren't end-to-end encrypted, just communicated between servers (transport-encrypted) and some basic trust in the administration
22:22:16 <npdoty> ... could use DIDs as the identifier instead of just account URLs
22:23:34 <npdoty> ... server-to-server side effects are specified, but that relies on server access to the contents of ActivityPub messages
22:24:27 <npdoty> nolan: e2e scenario doesn't seem like the most high-value use case
22:24:41 <npdoty> ... relative to account export/import features
22:25:17 <npdoty> cwebber2: but is still raised as a privacy issue ("advisory privacy")
22:29:25 <npdoty> npdoty: one way that people have tried is to use Keybase where you sign a statement that proves that you own multiple accounts
22:29:48 <npdoty> ... which handles both key discovery and proof of connection of two accounts
22:29:55 <npdoty> is there transparency for that?
22:30:25 <npdoty> drummond: decentralized identifiers also allow you to specify those claims, including moving between accounts
22:30:55 <npdoty> nolan: concern about usability, given that the competition is a streamlined centralized social networking service
22:31:17 <npdoty> cwebber2: what would the user interface look like?
22:32:19 <npdoty> drummond: have seen lots of demos for services like Signal where the UI really is getting to the point of being comfortable
22:32:35 <npdoty> cwebber2: social networking sites can make it much easier to actually build a web of trust
22:34:01 <npdoty> cwebber2: historically when people talked about blockchains for everything! zooko emphasized the utility of an entrypoint to cryptographic systems that have a human-usable experience
22:34:25 <npdoty> https://ring.cx/
22:35:13 <npdoty> a social network can introduce people into a cryptographically secure system
22:36:20 <npdoty> contrasting to the keysigning party stereotype :)
22:36:37 <npdoty> topic: games
22:36:57 <npdoty> christopher: cross-game chatting or other interactions
22:37:57 <npdoty> [lots of experience with MUDs and MOOs, cwebber2 gives a demo]
22:39:00 <npdoty> games can include both chat and interaction with a world that you walk around
22:39:28 <npdoty> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LambdaMOO
22:39:29 <Loqi> LambdaMOO
22:39:58 <npdoty> christopher: objects can be more complicated, respond to different kinds of verbs, etc.
22:40:47 <npdoty> cwebber2: these games were typically community programmable, users could build objects that would interact
22:42:49 <npdoty> nolan: in a federated system, how would you prevent cheating?
22:44:08 <npdoty> Lessons from Habitat, and a 1980s game Habitat, that had collaborative interactions, that used consent/capabilities
22:44:26 <npdoty> Second Life has similar techniques
22:44:30 <npdoty> could use VRML as well
22:46:58 <npdoty> smart contracts to enable secure capabilities
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22:47:43 <npdoty> sending messages from actor to actor about your position, etc.
22:47:52 <Loqi> tantek: ajordan left you a message 1 day, 19 hours ago: just read through the logs, very interesting! glad y'all had a good/productive time and I just love "hey we had a meeting!" on that page :-)
22:50:16 <npdoty> federated environments, could involve exchange of currencies between them
22:53:43 <npdoty> how much of this is possible to implement with ActivityPub today?
22:54:24 <npdoty> cwebber2: we could have customized software that had existing Mastodon-style feeds in some columns and have another column that is the game, with updates to the game state
22:54:52 <npdoty> ... the effort to build that could be a compelling use case for adoption of federated social networking
22:56:06 <npdoty> [cryptocurrency conversation]
22:58:42 <npdoty> next steps?
23:00:30 <npdoty> cwebber2: interest in trying out game development next year
23:00:44 <npdoty> webrtc and data channel for peer-to-peer connections
23:01:07 <npdoty> [adjourned]
23:01:11 <npdoty> rrsagent, draft minutes
23:01:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-social-minutes.html npdoty
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01:29:14 <azaroth> cwebber2: Okay okay :)
01:32:36 <cwebber2> hi hi
01:33:09 <cwebber2> azaroth: welcome to #social :)
04:06:38 <nightpool> cwebber2: updated https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/5631 with what I think the "next steps" are for mastodon and some places I'd like input on from other developers.
04:06:39 <Loqi> [cwebber] #5631 Submit ActivityPub implementation report
04:08:06 <nightpool> it covers all the "No"s except Add/Remove (what are those even for anyway?), inbox fetching (probably not worth the pain), and tombstones (which we don't implement but I wasn't able to select "N/A")
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16:34:55 <puckipedia> nightpool: the add/remove are for Collections
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16:56:46 <puckipedia> I'm going json-ld to rdf serialization properly but not the inverse and rdf lists are really weird
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17:32:07 <puckipedia> status update: twemoji work. status update two: they are really really large
17:32:23 <puckipedia> also list serialization works!
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17:39:09 <cwebber2> puckipedia: yay!
17:39:10 <Loqi> 😊
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18:16:16 <pdurbin> We're implementing some JSON-LD support in Dataverse in the current sprint. I just thought I'd mention it. :)
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