IRC log of device-api on 2017-11-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-device-api-irc
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-device-api-irc
22:06:29 [anssik]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
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meeting: Device APIs
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scribe: Anssi_Kostiainen
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ScribeNick: anssik
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chair: Vincent_Scheib
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agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2017/SessionIdeas#Device_APIs_session
22:07:20 [anssik]
zakim, save agenda
22:07:20 [Zakim]
the agenda has not been entered yet, anssik
22:07:30 [anssik]
rrsagent, draft minutes v2
22:07:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-device-api-minutes.html anssik
22:07:42 [anssik]
Topic: Agenda bashing
22:07:58 [shigeya]
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22:08:19 [scheib]
Ansii: Device WG is re-chartering soon
22:08:24 [ScottSimmons]
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22:08:31 [scheib]
anssik: Looking for signals for evolving the charter
22:08:59 [anssik]
dom: permissions and user consent relationship to this group
22:09:10 [anssik]
rrsagent, draft minutes v2
22:09:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-device-api-minutes.html anssik
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22:10:14 [ScottSimmons]
present+ ScottSimmons
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22:10:15 [dom]
Present+ DomHM
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present+ Fuqiao
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present+
22:10:54 [CyrilV-BPCE]
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22:10:59 [anssik]
vincent: interest to gather implementers interest outside Chromium
22:11:06 [CyrilV-BPCE]
present+
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22:11:44 [jeffh]
present+
22:12:11 [Yam_ACCESS]
Toshihiko Yamami, ACCESS, a browser vendor, but I have almost no knowledge about device API, sorry.
22:12:29 [jyrossi]
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22:12:31 [reillyg]
present+
22:12:45 [anssik]
Vincent: Pattrick Kettner from Microsoft working on a polyfill implementation for Edge
22:12:48 [darktears]
present+
22:13:17 [anssik]
... Web Bluetooth on top of WinRT specifically
22:13:39 [anssik]
... notably not part of the Edge implementation
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22:13:54 [Yam_ACCESS]
s/Yamami/Yamakami/
22:14:56 [hirokias]
present+ Hiroki_Asakimori
22:15:13 [weiler]
present+ weiler
22:15:22 [dydz]
present+ Daniel Bates
22:15:55 [anssik]
unknown: Microsoft has some concerns about security model of Web Bluetooth
22:16:18 [anssik]
Vincent: I've been in contact with partners, e.g. there's a product called Pocket Lab
22:16:37 [anssik]
... goal to have devices that can be used throughout the year to address physics and math learning opportunities
22:17:01 [anssik]
... have been successfully using Web Bluetooth API for Chrome OS, Android, macOS
22:17:21 [anssik]
... native app for iOS and Windows with a plan to deprecate as soon as possible due to development cost
22:17:27 [anssik]
... also web dev model preferred
22:17:39 [anssik]
... another product, Puck.js, for the makers market
22:17:49 [anssik]
... have shipped ~10K devices to date
22:18:05 [anssik]
... programmable, run JS on device, interface over WebBT
22:18:23 [anssik]
... have implemented their own browser in iOS, injected WebBT implementation
22:19:52 [anssik]
... we are measuring usage of the Web Bluetooth API, roughly several 100s of individual opt in every week
22:20:08 [anssik]
... Web USB is coming along, a bit lower usage
22:20:34 [anssik]
... another real-world usage is in drones that are interfaced with over WebBT
22:20:56 [anssik]
... WebUSB is utilized to flash Android devices
22:21:14 [anssik]
... this is under active development
22:21:40 [anssik]
... utilization by 3rd party for CPR training
22:22:44 [anssik]
... both WebUSB and WebBluetooth provide security advantage due to lower exposure
22:23:26 [tomayac]
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22:23:57 [anssik]
... under the Web model, I grant access to a single device, can revoke the access and no residual access possibility remains
22:24:17 [anssik]
... drastically stricter security model compared to native
22:24:42 [anssik]
unknown: there's the web sandbox, and this is adding capabilities to that sandbox
22:25:00 [anssik]
... generally thinking about web security, do not provide access to content process
22:25:15 [anssik]
... installed app could be a PWA, we're watching
22:25:24 [anssik]
... any comments from Apple?
22:25:38 [anssik]
unknown(Apple): wondering about use cases?
22:25:43 [darktears]
anssik, dydz ^^
22:26:05 [anssik]
s/unknown(Apple)/dydz
22:26:29 [anssik]
... what are the problems that WebBT is trying to solve? Can we reframe the problem somehow?
22:26:57 [anssik]
reillyg: the tradeoff between gaving capabilities to web sandbox
22:27:00 [tomayac]
Puck.js: https://www.espruino.com/Puck.js+Web+Bluetooth
22:27:06 [anssik]
... people are just going to buy these devices
22:27:32 [anssik]
... we can take advantage of the superior security model, if developers build web apps versus native apps
22:27:51 [anssik]
... we require appropriate user concern
22:28:18 [anssik]
.. re use cases, we have a number of device APIs on the Web platform, for camera etc.
22:28:27 [anssik]
s/.. re/... re
22:29:13 [anssik]
... we're enabling people to develop apps for small use cases
22:29:22 [anssik]
RRSAgent, generate minutes v2
22:29:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-device-api-minutes.html anssik
22:29:42 [anssik]
dydz: can't we solve this using browser extensions?
22:30:19 [anssik]
reillyg: question of tradeoff, forcing extensions path puts us in same position as with native apps
22:30:33 [anssik]
... we're removing extensions, since the extensions make the browsers worse
22:30:57 [anssik]
anssik: no interop for extensions
22:31:12 [tomayac]
WebExtensions run on Android Firefox
22:31:45 [anssik]
shwetank: no extensions for mobile browsers in general
22:32:12 [anssik]
dydz: this increases fingerprintable surface area
22:33:25 [anssik]
... concern we are building an OS platform on the Web
22:33:55 [anssik]
... re WebBT, how to ensure the API does not increase fingerprintability, so that people can not scan your devices
22:34:11 [anssik]
... how to mitigate the risk of such APIs
22:34:25 [anssik]
s/mitigate/mitigate the fingerprinting
22:34:45 [anssik]
Vincent: WebBT and WebUSB do not expose any information prior to user's explicit consent
22:34:56 [anssik]
... similarly to filesystem access
22:35:13 [anssik]
... do not increase any fingerprintable surface area
22:35:53 [anssik]
... currently some of sensors exposed through deviceorientationevent are being redesigned to provide enhanced privacy protection
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22:36:20 [xfq_]
Generic Sensors API: https://w3c.github.io/sensors/
22:36:52 [anssik]
... for some generic sensor-based concrete sensors, Chrome expose low fidelity of sensor data to not need to prompt the user while also protect users' privacy
22:37:23 [anssik]
... for high fidelity, can fall back to explicit user consent
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... TAG has published a note re fingerprinting
22:38:54 [dydz]
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22:41:26 [anssik]
dydz: Safari's deviceorientationevent should be restricted to the top-level frame, but not sure
22:41:53 [anssik]
... not familiar with WebRTC model, how it addresses privacy issues
22:42:09 [anssik]
... camera data is scoped to <input type=file> access
22:43:53 [anssik]
anssik: would you be more comfortable if WebBT would reused <input type=file> as its user-facing UI
22:44:17 [anssik]
Daniel(Apple): we have couple of users to ask user for permission
22:44:35 [anssik]
... Geolocation we reprompt every 24 hours
22:44:46 [anssik]
... we want to create right UX for each of these powerful features
22:44:57 [grassel]
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... want to get better sense of developer use cases, problems that are being solved
22:45:21 [anssik]
... we want to understand the use cases better
22:46:51 [anssik]
Vincent: philosophy, we provided content to be rendered on the Web using canvas 2D, WebBT and WebUSB are well-adapted industry standards, we want to leverage these standards rather than create application-specific APIs, e.g. solution that'd be FitBit-specific
22:47:13 [anssik]
... out sensors are used in industrial, medical areas, sensors that are just transmissing data
22:48:02 [anssik]
... arduino community is huge, many of these could be programmed over WebUSB for education purposes which is a significant market
22:48:22 [anssik]
... convenience to go to a web page, use it as your IDE is a powerful too for programmable devices
22:49:21 [anssik]
... other usages: 3D printing, go to a web site print directly to your 3D printer, nicer out-of-box experience for toys
22:49:31 [anssik]
... in general lower the startup cost of development
22:50:31 [scheib]
anssik: Essentially, the long tail
22:50:32 [dydz]
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22:50:49 [scheib]
... Wrapping that up let's transition to discussing future of the device group
22:51:01 [scheib]
... Considering taking on geolocation API on
22:51:11 [scheib]
... no longer being maintained elsewhere
22:51:23 [scheib]
... can upgrade the API to be more contemporary
22:51:39 [scheib]
... also considering taking on Web Bluetooth, but seeking support from the community
22:51:54 [scheib]
... heard that several are monitoring progress
22:52:08 [scheib]
... apple has raised some concerns, specifically wanting to know the desired use cases
22:52:49 [scheib]
... Specifically re Geolocation, any thoughts? None, seems clear to move forward
22:53:14 [scheib]
... Web Bluetooth, anyone who believes we should wait and keep the specification in incubation longer?
22:53:45 [anssik]
https://github.com/w3c/dap-charter/
22:53:59 [scheib]
... several issues open on github discussing charter
22:54:01 [anssik]
https://github.com/w3c/dap-charter/issues
22:54:11 [scheib]
... please contribute thoughts there
22:54:12 [anssik]
https://w3c.github.io/dap-charter/DeviceAPICharter.html
22:55:20 [anssik]
anssik: Device and Sensors WG is rechartering for 2018
22:55:27 [grassel]
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22:55:32 [anssik]
... now is the time to submit your feedback, please use GH issues for that
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hi
22:57:48 [larsgk]
anssik: hi
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RRSAgent, generate minutes v2
22:59:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-device-api-minutes.html anssik
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22:25:02 [scheib]
Will discuss pointer lock & pointer clip
22:25:51 [scheib]
https://github.com/w3c/pointerlock/issues
22:27:31 [scheib]
https://github.com/w3c/pointerlock/issues/24
22:27:38 [scheib]
movementX/Y double instead of long
22:29:54 [scheib]
https://github.com/w3c/pointerlock/issues/23 movementX/Y when zoom in/out
22:53:15 [scheib]
:P previous block all was sent to wrong room. Whoops.
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