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22:06:29 <anssik> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
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22:06:41 <anssik> meeting: Device APIs
22:06:45 <sho> sho has joined #device-api
22:06:47 <anssik> scribe: Anssi_Kostiainen
22:06:52 <anssik> ScribeNick: anssik
22:06:59 <dom> dom has joined #device-api
22:07:00 <anssik> chair: Vincent_Scheib
22:07:07 <anssik> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2017/SessionIdeas#Device_APIs_session
22:07:20 <anssik> zakim, save agenda
22:07:20 <Zakim> the agenda has not been entered yet, anssik
22:07:30 <anssik> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
22:07:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-device-api-minutes.html anssik
22:07:42 <anssik> Topic: Agenda bashing
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22:08:19 <scheib> Ansii: Device WG is re-chartering soon
22:08:24 <ScottSimmons> ScottSimmons has joined #device-api
22:08:31 <scheib> anssik: Looking for signals for evolving the charter
22:08:59 <anssik> dom: permissions and user consent relationship to this group
22:09:10 <anssik> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
22:09:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-device-api-minutes.html anssik
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22:10:14 <ScottSimmons> present+ ScottSimmons
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22:10:15 <dom> Present+ DomHM
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22:10:23 <xfq> present+ Fuqiao
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22:10:54 <shigeya> present+
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22:10:59 <anssik> vincent: interest to gather implementers interest outside Chromium
22:11:06 <CyrilV-BPCE> present+
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22:11:44 <jeffh> present+
22:12:11 <Yam_ACCESS> Toshihiko Yamami, ACCESS, a browser vendor, but I have almost no knowledge about device API, sorry.
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22:12:31 <reillyg> present+
22:12:45 <anssik> Vincent: Pattrick Kettner from Microsoft working on a polyfill implementation for Edge
22:12:48 <darktears> present+
22:13:17 <anssik> ... Web Bluetooth on top of WinRT specifically
22:13:39 <anssik> ... notably not part of the Edge implementation
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22:13:54 <Yam_ACCESS> s/Yamami/Yamakami/
22:14:56 <hirokias> present+ Hiroki_Asakimori
22:15:13 <weiler> present+ weiler
22:15:22 <dydz> present+ Daniel Bates
22:15:55 <anssik> unknown: Microsoft has some concerns about security model of Web Bluetooth
22:16:18 <anssik> Vincent: I've been in contact with partners, e.g. there's a product called Pocket Lab
22:16:37 <anssik> ... goal to have devices that can be used throughout the year to address physics and math learning opportunities
22:17:01 <anssik> ... have been successfully using Web Bluetooth API for Chrome OS, Android, macOS
22:17:21 <anssik> ... native app for iOS and Windows with a plan to deprecate as soon as possible due to development cost
22:17:27 <anssik> ... also web dev model preferred
22:17:39 <anssik> ... another product, Puck.js, for the makers market
22:17:49 <anssik> ... have shipped ~10K devices to date
22:18:05 <anssik> ... programmable, run JS on device, interface over WebBT
22:18:23 <anssik> ... have implemented their own browser in iOS, injected WebBT implementation
22:19:52 <anssik> ... we are measuring usage of the Web Bluetooth API, roughly several 100s of individual opt in every week
22:20:08 <anssik> ... Web USB is coming along, a bit lower usage
22:20:34 <anssik> ... another real-world usage is in drones that are interfaced with over WebBT
22:20:56 <anssik> ... WebUSB is utilized to flash Android devices
22:21:14 <anssik> ... this is under active development
22:21:40 <anssik> ... utilization by 3rd party for CPR training
22:22:44 <anssik> ... both WebUSB and WebBluetooth provide security advantage due to lower exposure
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22:23:57 <anssik> ... under the Web model, I grant access to a single device, can revoke the access and no residual access possibility remains
22:24:17 <anssik> ... drastically stricter security model compared to native
22:24:42 <anssik> unknown: there's the web sandbox, and this is adding capabilities to that sandbox
22:25:00 <anssik> ... generally thinking about web security, do not provide access to content process
22:25:15 <anssik> ... installed app could be a PWA, we're watching
22:25:24 <anssik> ... any comments from Apple?
22:25:38 <anssik> unknown(Apple): wondering about use cases?
22:25:43 <darktears> anssik, dydz ^^
22:26:05 <anssik> s/unknown(Apple)/dydz
22:26:29 <anssik> ... what are the problems that WebBT is trying to solve? Can we reframe the problem somehow?
22:26:57 <anssik> reillyg: the tradeoff between gaving capabilities to web sandbox
22:27:00 <tomayac> Puck.js: https://www.espruino.com/Puck.js+Web+Bluetooth
22:27:06 <anssik> ... people are just going to buy these devices
22:27:32 <anssik> ... we can take advantage of the superior security model, if developers build web apps versus native apps
22:27:51 <anssik> ... we require appropriate user concern
22:28:18 <anssik> .. re use cases, we have a number of device APIs on the Web platform, for camera etc.
22:28:27 <anssik> s/.. re/... re
22:29:13 <anssik> ... we're enabling people to develop apps for small use cases
22:29:22 <anssik> RRSAgent, generate minutes v2
22:29:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-device-api-minutes.html anssik
22:29:42 <anssik> dydz: can't we solve this using browser extensions?
22:30:19 <anssik> reillyg: question of tradeoff, forcing extensions path puts us in same position as with native apps
22:30:33 <anssik> ... we're removing extensions, since the extensions make the browsers worse
22:30:57 <anssik> anssik: no interop for extensions
22:31:12 <tomayac> WebExtensions run on Android Firefox
22:31:45 <anssik> shwetank: no extensions for mobile browsers in general
22:32:12 <anssik> dydz: this increases fingerprintable surface area
22:33:25 <anssik> ... concern we are building an OS platform on the Web
22:33:55 <anssik> ... re WebBT, how to ensure the API does not increase fingerprintability, so that people can not scan your devices
22:34:11 <anssik> ... how to mitigate the risk of such APIs
22:34:25 <anssik> s/mitigate/mitigate the fingerprinting
22:34:45 <anssik> Vincent: WebBT and WebUSB do not expose any information prior to user's explicit consent
22:34:56 <anssik> ... similarly to filesystem access
22:35:13 <anssik> ... do not increase any fingerprintable surface area
22:35:53 <anssik> ... currently some of sensors exposed through deviceorientationevent are being redesigned to provide enhanced privacy protection
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22:36:20 <xfq_> Generic Sensors API: https://w3c.github.io/sensors/
22:36:52 <anssik> ... for some generic sensor-based concrete sensors, Chrome expose low fidelity of sensor data to not need to prompt the user while also protect users' privacy
22:37:23 <anssik> ... for high fidelity, can fall back to explicit user consent
22:37:47 <anssik> ... TAG has published a note re fingerprinting
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22:41:26 <anssik> dydz: Safari's deviceorientationevent should be restricted to the top-level frame, but not sure
22:41:53 <anssik> ... not familiar with WebRTC model, how it addresses privacy issues
22:42:09 <anssik> ... camera data is scoped to <input type=file> access
22:43:53 <anssik> anssik: would you be more comfortable if WebBT would reused  <input type=file> as its user-facing UI
22:44:17 <anssik> Daniel(Apple): we have couple of users to ask user for permission
22:44:35 <anssik> ... Geolocation we reprompt every 24 hours
22:44:46 <anssik> ... we want to create right UX for each of these powerful features
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22:45:11 <anssik> ... want to get better sense of developer use cases, problems that are being solved
22:45:21 <anssik> ... we want to understand the use cases better
22:46:51 <anssik> Vincent: philosophy, we provided content to be rendered on the Web using canvas 2D, WebBT and WebUSB are well-adapted industry standards, we want to leverage these standards rather than create application-specific APIs, e.g. solution that'd be FitBit-specific
22:47:13 <anssik> ... out sensors are used in industrial, medical areas, sensors that are just transmissing data
22:48:02 <anssik> ... arduino community is huge, many of these could be programmed over WebUSB for education purposes which is a significant market
22:48:22 <anssik> ... convenience to go to a web page, use it as your IDE is a powerful too for programmable devices
22:49:21 <anssik> ... other usages: 3D printing, go to a web site print directly to your 3D printer, nicer out-of-box experience for toys
22:49:31 <anssik> ... in general lower the startup cost of development
22:50:31 <scheib> anssik: Essentially, the long tail
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22:50:49 <scheib> ... Wrapping that up let's transition to discussing future of the device group
22:51:01 <scheib> ... Considering taking on geolocation API on
22:51:11 <scheib> ... no longer being maintained elsewhere
22:51:23 <scheib> ... can upgrade the API to be more contemporary
22:51:39 <scheib> ... also considering taking on Web Bluetooth, but seeking support from the community
22:51:54 <scheib> ... heard that several are monitoring progress
22:52:08 <scheib> ... apple has raised some concerns, specifically wanting to know the desired use cases
22:52:49 <scheib> ... Specifically re Geolocation, any thoughts?  None, seems clear to move forward
22:53:14 <scheib> ... Web Bluetooth, anyone who believes we should wait and keep the specification in incubation longer?
22:53:45 <anssik> https://github.com/w3c/dap-charter/
22:53:59 <scheib> ... several issues open on github discussing charter
22:54:01 <anssik> https://github.com/w3c/dap-charter/issues
22:54:11 <scheib> ... please contribute thoughts there
22:54:12 <anssik> https://w3c.github.io/dap-charter/DeviceAPICharter.html
22:55:20 <anssik> anssik: Device and Sensors WG is rechartering for 2018
22:55:27 <grassel> grassel has joined #device-api
22:55:32 <anssik> ... now is the time to submit your feedback, please use GH issues for that
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22:57:14 <larsgk> hi
22:57:48 <larsgk> anssik: hi
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22:59:34 <anssik> RRSAgent, generate minutes v2
22:59:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-device-api-minutes.html anssik
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22:25:02 <scheib> Will discuss pointer lock & pointer clip
22:25:51 <scheib> https://github.com/w3c/pointerlock/issues
22:27:31 <scheib> https://github.com/w3c/pointerlock/issues/24
22:27:38 <scheib> movementX/Y double instead of long
22:29:54 <scheib> https://github.com/w3c/pointerlock/issues/23  movementX/Y when zoom in/out
22:53:15 <scheib> :P previous block all was sent to wrong room.  Whoops.
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