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17:01:01 <rdeltour> present+ George
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17:01:03 <mateus> present+
17:01:11 <tzviya> present+
17:01:17 <rachel> present+
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17:01:20 <lsullam_> present+
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17:01:24 <evan> present+
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17:01:26 <JunGamo> present+
17:01:27 <tzviya> scribenick: rdeltour
17:01:28 <rachel> Present+ Avneesh
17:01:32 <toshiakikoike> present+
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17:02:13 <rdeltour> tzviya: quick introduction, some new faces today
17:02:36 <clapierre> present+
17:02:48 <garth> present+ Garth
17:03:39 <marisa_demeglio> present+
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17:03:46 <liisamk> present + Liisa McCloy-Kelley
17:03:52 <DanielWeck> present+ Daniel Weck
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17:04:22 <George> present+ George
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17:05:03 <dsinger> present+ dsinger
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17:05:25 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
17:05:34 <rdeltour> tzviya: yesterday we went through a lot of stuff
17:05:35 <timCole> present+ Tim_Cole
17:05:47 <rdeltour> … discussion on the lifecycle of a publication, and packaging
17:06:00 <dwood> dwood has joined #pwg
17:06:04 <dwood> present+
17:06:13 <DaveBrowning> DaveBrowning has joined #pwg
17:06:29 <ivan> ivan has joined #pwg
17:06:32 <rdeltour> … we basically agreed we had 4 stages: discover, identify, select, obtain
17:06:39 <rdeltour> ... that's were we are with WP
17:06:50 <DaveBrowning> Present+
17:06:51 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
17:06:56 <ivan> present+
17:07:02 <rdeltour> … we also talked about i18n
17:07:03 <garth> q?
17:07:14 <rdeltour> ... discussion about UA and where we are with browsers
17:07:20 <ivan> Guests+ David_Singer
17:07:29 <rdeltour> … the point is to have a FPWD
17:07:32 <hyejin> hyejin has joined #pwg
17:07:33 <rkwright> present+
17:07:58 <rdeltour> … we did close one issue (smile)
17:08:13 <rdeltour> ivan: we had some discussions about the manifest / waybill
17:08:34 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group F2F — 2017-11-07
17:08:37 <rdeltour> topic: Media Overlays
17:08:57 <ivan> Chair: tzviya, garth
17:09:03 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
17:09:03 <Zakim> Present: George, mateus, tzviya, rachel, lsullam_, duga_, evan, JunGamo, Avneesh, toshiakikoike, clapierre, Garth, marisa_demeglio, Daniel, Weck, dsinger, dauwhe, Tim_Cole, dwood,
17:09:07 <Zakim> ... DaveBrowning, ivan, rkwright
17:09:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see hyejin, ivan, DaveBrowning, dwood, timCole, rkwright, George, DanielWeck, clapierre, toshiakikoike, JunGamo, lsullam_, Zakim, RRSAgent, duga_, leonardr, evan, liisamk,
17:09:07 <Zakim> ... mateus, garth, dsinger, Avneesh, BillM, Karen_, rdeltour, mattg, tzviya, plinss, dauwhe, marisa_demeglio, rachel, github-bot, dbaron, jyasskin, astearns, bigbluehat, ShaneM,
17:09:07 <Zakim> ... wseltzer
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17:09:28 <ivan> scribejs, set dsinger David Singer
17:09:30 <bigbluehat> present+
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17:10:59 <laudrain> Present+ Luc
17:11:20 <rdeltour> marisa_demeglio: let's talk about synchronized audio ebooks
17:11:37 <rdeltour> … EPUB 3 introduced media overlays, to sync narrated audio with the text of the publication
17:11:50 <rdeltour> ... done with the SMIL language, got historical precedent with the DAISY format
17:12:05 <rdeltour> … SMIL is a very complicated language, we just use a small subset
17:12:16 <rdeltour> ... the SMIL file sits in the publication, referenced in the manifest
17:12:38 <rdeltour> … [quick demo with Readium
17:12:49 <rdeltour> s/Readium/Readium]/
17:13:26 <rdeltour> marisa_demeglio: we heard the audio, and saw the text highlighted as audio proceeded
17:13:29 <George_> George_ has joined #pwg
17:13:38 <DanielWeck> https://github.com/w3c/publ-wg/wiki/Requirements-and-design-options-for-synchronized-multimedia
17:14:07 <rdeltour> … requirements: audio playback is synchronized, navigate in the audio the same way you navigate in the text
17:14:44 <rdeltour> ... escape complex structures (e.g. out of a table), some customization (eg. don't follow footnotes)
17:14:57 <ivan> present+ takeshi
17:15:00 <rdeltour> leonardr: these all sound like UA requirements
17:15:08 <rdeltour> marisa_demeglio: yes, except it has to be defined in the spec
17:15:38 <rdeltour> tzivya: one of the thing this group has to figure out is what to do with media sync, whether to create a TF, a Note, etc
17:15:47 <tzviya> s/tzivya/tzviya
17:16:01 <rdeltour> leonardr: OK, was trying to understand what was the dividing line between UA and content spec
17:16:14 <rdeltour> marisa_demeglio: good question, as daniel said it's mostly metadata
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17:16:41 <rdeltour> leonardr: identifiying things semantically is a different thing than things like trying to escape structures
17:17:19 <rdeltour> danielweck: as a content creator, I want to be able to identify categories of content (page numbers, aside) that would automatically be skipped during playback
17:17:33 <rdeltour> … as a user, I want to select / opt-in this behaviour
17:18:10 <rdeltour> marisa_demeglio: more user requirements: playing the audio faster, time-based navigation (fast-forward)
17:18:26 <rdeltour> … for WP, we looked at a few different candidates
17:18:48 <Cristina_> Cristina_ has joined #pwg
17:18:56 <rdeltour> ... TTML and Web VTT intend to embed text captions in videos, not really fit, we want the inverse
17:19:11 <rdeltour> … Web Animations have no declarative syntax
17:19:25 <rdeltour> ... SMIL, which nobody loves
17:19:36 <rdeltour> … I think we can do better
17:19:44 <rdeltour> ... XML processing in the browser is not optimal
17:19:56 <timCole> q+
17:19:58 <rdeltour> … Web Annotations look more promising
17:20:11 <dwood> Web Annotations++
17:20:12 <rdeltour> ... in a way you can see MO as an annotation for a publication
17:20:15 <tzviya> ack tim
17:20:19 <ivan> q+
17:20:23 <garth> garth has joined #pwg
17:20:27 <garth> q?
17:20:37 <garth> present+ Garth
17:20:41 <tzviya> ack iv
17:20:48 <takeshi> takeshi has joined #pwg
17:20:48 <rdeltour> timCole: [scribe didn't hear]
17:21:01 <rdeltour> ivan: how do we specify what we need?
17:21:19 <rdeltour> … we also have to see how we can provide some initial implementation, polyfill, etc
17:21:33 <rkwright> q+
17:21:58 <rdeltour> ... if I look at the list, probably the Web Animation is in a different category. not declarative syntax but it has some implementations
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17:22:25 <laurentlemeur> present +
17:22:29 <rdeltour> … SVG and others reformulate what they do based off Web Animations
17:22:38 <tzviya> ack rk
17:22:42 <liisamk> q+
17:23:00 <rdeltour> rkwright: what are the requirements in terms of backward compatiblity?
17:23:12 <rdeltour> … SMIL and MO are used, we have to support them forever in RS
17:23:30 <rdeltour> ... we can do something cool with new tech, but then I have two different ways of doing the same thing
17:23:40 <rdeltour> garth: our charter is very specific on this point
17:24:02 <rdeltour> … roundtripping to EPUB 3 is intended for EPUB 4
17:24:17 <timCole> Re Web Annotations - a subset of the WA data model focused on locating content within WPub is being developed with extensions
17:24:38 <timCole> We will want to track closely relevant to media overlays
17:24:40 <rdeltour> ... it depends a lot on the approach taken, but providing backward compatibility is a SHOULD for EPUB 4
17:24:42 <tzviya> q?
17:25:14 <rdeltour> ivan: I think the problem raised by Ric is that the SMIL subset, in terms of expressing what we need, is something that will live on for a while
17:25:20 <laurentlemeur> q+
17:25:28 <rdeltour> … it's an unfortunate fact that that syntax will not live on for a long time
17:25:38 <tzviya> ack liisamk
17:25:42 <rdeltour> ... for publications done on the Web, it's unrealistic to keep that
17:26:06 <rdeltour> liisamk: we talked abou the idea of using the packaging structure for audio books, how does that relate to what we're using here?
17:26:30 <rdeltour> … are we thinking it enables synchronization?
17:26:48 <George> Q+
17:27:12 <rdeltour> marisa_demeglio: there's a gap there from EPUB 3 on what we do with books with more audio, or audio-only
17:27:18 <garth> s/very specific/very specific (facetiously)/
17:27:23 <clapierre> q+
17:27:26 <George> q-
17:27:26 <rdeltour> … the user has some high-level structure with TOC, but not the full text
17:27:31 <garth> q?
17:27:43 <dsinger> q+
17:28:00 <rdeltour> rkwright: we see that form the publishing point of view, then add audio, then we have comics. all of these have different requirements
17:28:15 <rdeltour> tzviya: we're not just talking about accessible audio, but audio books for everybody
17:28:32 <tzviya> ack lau
17:28:34 <rdeltour> … trade audio books could replace the specialized publications
17:29:15 <BillM> q+
17:29:19 <rdeltour> laurentlemeur: refining what Ric said: if we keep the same kind of model as SMIL, our work will be lower than if we move to something entirely different like Web Annotations
17:29:25 <rdeltour> … the solution will impact the development
17:29:49 <rdeltour> ... to answer to Lisa, if you want audio books in EPUB 4, the problem is much simpler than if we want synchronization
17:30:05 <rdeltour> … there's a strict parallel to a ToC pointing to text and a ToC pointing to audio
17:30:18 <rdeltour> ... we need to have a solution for audio books, it's not necessarilty this one
17:30:18 <tzviya> ack cl
17:30:50 <tzviya> ack ds
17:30:53 <rdeltour> clapierre: Marisa showed sentence-level highlighting, you can have word-level, character-level, to be considered
17:31:29 <Karen> Karen has joined #pwg
17:31:37 <rdeltour> dsinger: this question was asked in a whole bunch of forums: how do I keep my page [???]
17:32:10 <laudrain> q+
17:32:14 <rdeltour> ... we have to put together a lot of tools
17:32:29 <tzviya> ack billm
17:32:31 <rdeltour> … you may have all the pieces you need, but it takes a while to gather them
17:32:40 <dauwhe> s/[???]/synchronized with some multimedia running inside the page/
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17:33:16 <rdeltour> billM: I think more generally we call it Media Overlays not audio overlays, we can imagine e.g. VR overlays
17:33:34 <dsinger> syncing media with the page is a struggle in DVB, ATSC, 3GPP, MPEG and other places. we should see if we can find a common solution there; there are a lot of pieces that, when put together, help, but they are all over our specs (e.g. VTT, TTML, JS, DOM, HTML and so on)
17:33:37 <rdeltour> … that's an example where keeping it flexible may enable more use cases
17:33:43 <tzviya> ack laudrain
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17:34:10 <rdeltour> laudrain: it w/b very useful for dyslexic people to be able to highlight syllables in words
17:34:23 <DanielWeck> present+ Daniel Weck
17:34:59 <garth> q?
17:35:00 <rdeltour> marisa_demeglio: people have mentioned a lot of the issues we ran into
17:35:20 <rdeltour> … there are a lot of similarities between sync video+text, audio+text, etc
17:35:33 <rdeltour> ... we'll have to put some parameters on what type of content we want to tackle
17:35:53 <rdeltour> … if we piggy back on a spec like Web Annotations, we require UA to implement it
17:36:28 <rdeltour> ... we also looked at using our own syntax, JSON structure
17:36:49 <rdeltour> … w/b easy for implementers, lighter weight, easier to work with in a browser context
17:36:56 <Karen> Karen has joined #pwg
17:36:58 <rdeltour> ... we can have a Note about a custom syntax
17:36:59 <leonardr> q+
17:37:50 <rdeltour> danielWeck: there's a link in the slides about a very early prototype
17:38:06 <rdeltour> … I invite you to have a look at the wiki page, including high level reqs and use cases
17:38:24 <rdeltour> ... we have an opportunity to move away from SMIL and use a more webby format
17:38:36 <rdeltour> … but also support use cases not supported in EPUB 3 MO
17:39:02 <rdeltour> ... MO were a regression from the DAISY world, which support a wider range of text/audio combination
17:39:31 <rdeltour> … it's a great opportunity to come up with a lightweigh webby declarative synchtonized multimedia format
17:39:49 <rdeltour> ... there wsa a proposal from a decade ago called SMIL timesheets
17:40:10 <rdeltour> … might not be a good time now to look into the details of what we do in Readium 2
17:40:11 <tzviya> ack le
17:40:16 <bigbluehat> q+
17:40:58 <rdeltour> leonardr: in the slides, the advantages are compared to SMIL, do you have a more detailed analysis with the other specs (Web VTT, etc)
17:41:18 <ivan> q+
17:41:25 <rdeltour> marisa_demeglio: I don't have a precise answer. if we make our own thing, it can be tailored but we own it
17:41:38 <rdeltour> … if we use an existing standard, we may be able to leverage support
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17:41:45 <Avneesh> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/media-a11y-reqs/
17:41:53 <dwood> q+
17:41:56 <rdeltour> avneesh: the Media Accessibility Requirements have been described already at W3C
17:41:59 <rdeltour> … not a new thing
17:42:02 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
17:42:06 <rdeltour> ... we should find out how to shape out
17:42:32 <DanielWeck> q+
17:42:36 <tzviya> ack iv
17:42:45 <rdeltour> bigbluehat: [describes how to translate the prototype to Web Annotations]
17:43:07 <rdeltour> ivan: one thing is that this kind of requirements are not exclusively for publications
17:43:20 <rdeltour> … in my view, the current web world is missing something
17:43:21 <bigbluehat> if you change `text` to `target` and `audio` to `body` in the readium-2 media-overlays JSON, you have web annotations
17:43:36 <leonardr> bigbluehat - yup!
17:43:37 <rdeltour> ... my instinct says that whatever we do here, other communities should benefit from it
17:43:46 <rdeltour> … I realize it means more work, more synchronization
17:43:47 <bigbluehat> they can be structured more richly, however, and enable more features and better findability (consequently)
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17:44:45 <leonardr> dauwhe :)
17:44:55 <rdeltour> ivan: the other thing, at the moment we know the browsers don't do much in this area, eventually we want them to do something
17:45:00 <Karen> Karen has joined #pwg
17:45:03 <tzviya> q?
17:45:17 <DanielWeck> q-
17:45:17 <rdeltour> … we need to spec in parallel with an implementation, ending up being taken up, at least with a polyfill
17:45:29 <dwood> q-
17:45:38 <rdeltour> ... putting more energy into this makes a lot of sense
17:45:57 <rdeltour> … publishing community is not only a taker but also a giver, we can push forward things we need
17:46:09 <tzviya> ack dwood
17:46:09 <rdeltour> ... I realize it has a price, but I wouldn't want to stop that
17:46:39 <rdeltour> marisa_demeglio: I have more technical details, but this might be prematur
17:46:44 <DanielWeck> q+
17:46:54 <rdeltour> … I agree with what ivan said, it would be great to do this outside our little world
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17:47:10 <rdeltour> tzivya: we'll try to get some broader interest
17:47:15 <rdeltour> … what are the next steps?
17:47:36 <rdeltour> ivan: I don't know how far the implementations are
17:47:47 <rdeltour> … there are 2 possible ways, not necessarily exclusive
17:47:57 <rdeltour> ... setup some meeting with key people
17:48:16 <rdeltour> … and go through the way that the Web platofrm likes to work, using the WICG
17:48:40 <rdeltour> ... coming with a spec, implementation, and trying to get feedback
17:48:57 <tzviya> q?
17:48:58 <rdeltour> … I think due diligence is required
17:49:00 <tzviya> ack da
17:49:14 <rdeltour> DanielWeck: I was going to ask about the possibility of creatig a new CG
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17:49:37 <rdeltour> ivan: the WICG is one big CG, but actually setting up a separate CG might be a very good idea
17:49:50 <rdeltour> tzviya: somebody will have to chair it :)
17:50:13 <rdeltour> DanielWeck: I expect there will be a gap in volicity. some of us already suggested a successor to SMIL
17:50:25 <rdeltour> … in Readium 2 we already have our own internal BFF format
17:50:32 <rdeltour> s/format//
17:51:02 <rdeltour> … what we have right now is a wiki page with UC and Req, have a gap analyzis
17:51:13 <rdeltour> ... we want to reuse the web platform bits as much as possible
17:51:28 <rdeltour> … the OWP is like a toolkit, it gives us all the tools we need to implement MO
17:51:50 <rdeltour> ... the gap analyzis is that what we need is a declarative format to map different media types and replace SMIL
17:51:53 <garth> q?
17:52:04 <rdeltour> … we have the technologies, but lacking a declarative format
17:52:22 <rdeltour> ivan: I think the next step is to setup a CG and start from there
17:52:55 <tzviya> q?
17:53:08 <rdeltour> DanielWeck: there's a caveat to the statement that it's not specific to Web Publications
17:53:24 <rdeltour> … I agree that it would be good to have something for the regular need
17:53:38 <rdeltour> ... but there are also hooks needed in publication metadata
17:54:00 <rdeltour> … e.g. to define durations, or to identify that some chapters have MO and others don't
17:54:37 <rdeltour> marisa_demeglio: talking about synchronized audio book as a sort of animation: that's the default rendering we used so far, but it may depend on the user's preference
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17:54:59 <tzviya> q?
17:55:04 <timCole> q+
17:55:09 <tzviya> ack tim
17:55:12 <rdeltour> DanielWeck: the metadata and discovery part will need to be defined in Web Publication
17:55:25 <rdeltour> timCole: couple different approaches can be used
17:55:40 <rdeltour> … web annotation approach tends to leave the document intact
17:55:47 <laudrain> +1
17:56:00 <rdeltour> ... otherwise you need to have control on the original document
17:56:09 <laudrain> q+
17:56:10 <bigbluehat> q+
17:56:10 <rdeltour> … it has impact on content producers
17:56:12 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda TPAC F2F: https://goo.gl/tjSdk4
17:56:16 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
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17:56:33 <rdeltour> bigbluehat: the Web Anno model doesn't assume that these things come from the same origin
17:56:44 <rdeltour> … that's a very common use case
17:56:50 <rdeltour> ... something to keep in mind
17:57:00 <RickJ> present+ RickJ
17:57:06 <rdeltour> marisa_demeglio: that's something we had in mind in EPUB 3, to have a extra layer
17:57:15 <rdeltour> DanielWeck: EPUB 3 is single-origin by nature
17:57:36 <rdeltour> … in Readium 2 we allow MO to be externalized
17:58:04 <dauwhe> q?
17:58:22 <rdeltour> laudrain: as publishers MO have a very big impact due to the hooks in the text
17:58:22 <tzviya> ack la
17:58:37 <Daniel_Weck> q?
17:58:54 <rdeltour> George: I want to make sure I understand the next steps
17:59:22 <rdeltour> … I'm hearing WICG, CG, and possible integration with other existing WG
17:59:41 <rdeltour> ... I'd like to know how to figure this out, are we gonna explore all these path?
18:00:03 <rdeltour> ivan: my proposal is to setup a CG right away
18:00:24 <rdeltour> … once it's setup, have the specifications / documentation that you have published in a readable format for outsiders
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18:00:30 <rdeltour> ... even implementations
18:01:01 <rdeltour> … once those are there you can stat the procedure withing the WICG to see whether this is something that could eventually raise interest in the Web platform
18:01:03 <garth> garth has joined #pwg
18:01:18 <rdeltour> ... in parallel, we can already contact key people
18:01:23 <Dan_Sanicola> Present+
18:01:38 <rdeltour> … if I understand well, you have already listed what other WG can be interested
18:01:56 <rdeltour> ... with this list, Garth, Tzviya, and I can setup a call with the staff contact or the chairs
18:01:59 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #pwg
18:02:22 <rdeltour> … but having a CG and good documentation on what you have being published gives you much more weight
18:02:36 <glazou_> glazou_ has joined #pwg
18:02:39 <rdeltour> DanielWeck: we need to present a compelling case for creating something new
18:02:48 <rdeltour> George: the CG could end up extending some other specs?
18:03:20 <rdeltour> ivan: with an implementation created on top of other APIs that the Web already has, that gives a very stable basis
18:03:34 <rdeltour> avneesh: what's the time to engage with external groups?
18:03:52 <rdeltour> ivan: the email was sent, we'll see when we get answers
18:04:47 <rdeltour> … I don't know how much time it takes, but once you have a document ready to be presented to the outside world we can setup a meeting
18:04:50 <dsinger> dsinger has left #pwg
18:05:13 <rdeltour> tzviya: break time, see slightly changed agenda:
18:05:14 <rdeltour> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12J3Y3bb5fdPh1r2XH9YloINkNSxBJArocKY108sYCZ0/edit#
18:05:32 <rdeltour> [30 mins break]
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18:31:10 <glazou> BCG ?
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18:35:40 <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
18:36:03 <baldurbjarnason> present+
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18:37:44 <marisa_demeglio> synchronized audio book slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/e/2PACX-1vQVMWPFcdnF_tSKIW_ODM5-MUmXlQ87GE96fXi-N6gWogyNwdsOI6Tx6SSZelJNvvjNhp-CHhYRPiSK/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=3000
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18:39:12 <bigbluehat> scribenick: bigbluehat
18:39:35 <bigbluehat> Topic: Security, privacy, integrity (with leonardr)
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18:39:57 <bigbluehat> leonardr: there are series of points I'd like to make, and then I'd like to lead some discussion
18:40:08 <bigbluehat> ...there are several related issues that I have some text ready for the FPWD
18:40:13 <bigbluehat> ...mainly want to get us on the same page
18:40:20 <bigbluehat> ...and discuss some problematic issues
18:40:27 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pwg
18:41:11 <bigbluehat> [regularly scheduled projector setup]
18:41:49 <bigbluehat> ...I only want to talk about Web Publications--not the packaging
18:42:31 <bigbluehat> ..."Web PUblications and their UAs must not compromise the basic security model of the Web."
18:42:43 <bigbluehat> s/PUbli/Publi/
18:42:57 <bigbluehat> ...I'd like to look at a few specific things around that
18:43:05 <DanielWeck> DanielWeck has joined #pwg
18:43:07 <bigbluehat> ...and see if we can't come to consensus around some solutions
18:43:13 <DanielWeck> present+ Daniel Weck
18:43:17 <bigbluehat> ...first, Secure Contexts (WP)
18:43:28 <bigbluehat> ...this is the difference between HTTP and HTTPS
18:43:54 <bigbluehat> ...Service Workers are a big one for us
18:44:02 <bigbluehat> ...they require a secure context
18:44:22 <bigbluehat> ...whether or not we require their use, even leaving open the option means we should require a secure context
18:44:29 <bigbluehat> ...there are other things as well
18:44:40 <bigbluehat> ...device features, geolocation, microphones, cameras, and notifications
18:44:43 <bigbluehat> ...among others
18:45:20 <bigbluehat> ivan: what you mean by recommendations on that slide would imply that all Web Publications must be served over HTTPS
18:45:31 <bigbluehat> leonardr: so. all primary resources would need to be
18:45:46 <bigbluehat> ...secondary resources could be loaded as mixed content
18:46:07 <bigbluehat> ...the rules for what can be (image, fonts, etc), and what can't be (javascript) are defined for us
18:46:26 <bigbluehat> ivan: is it even better to say--beyond this--even those secondary resources SHOULD be loaded over HTTPS
18:46:33 <bigbluehat> leonardr: I would welcome a SHOULD on that
18:46:45 <bigbluehat> dwood: that's consistent with the current trend on the Web
18:46:48 <bigbluehat> ivan: correct
18:47:08 <bigbluehat> leonardr: right. I want to be sure that publishers and those that will focus on WPs will also continue that trend
18:48:28 <bigbluehat> ...next, Restricting JS (WP) - #90
18:48:59 <bigbluehat> ...groups such as Google and AMP have done this to some extent
18:49:05 <bigbluehat> ...they specifically call out things that shouldn't happen
18:49:15 <bigbluehat> ...which also work to increase performance
18:49:29 <bigbluehat> ...we could also go farther and turn off scripting
18:49:33 <tzviya> q?
18:49:36 <bigbluehat> ...but that's likely too far--though some publishers might
18:49:53 <bigbluehat> ...some amount of restriction should be considered
18:49:55 <bigbluehat> ...thoughts?
18:50:28 <bigbluehat> ivan: my initial reaction is that we should avoid saying MUST NOT, but perhaps SHOULD NOT to caution publishers away from over using scripting
18:50:40 <rdeltour> q+
18:50:55 <bigbluehat> tzviya: I agree with ivan. If we start restricting scripting, we'll be hit with questions from publishers about how to enable interactivity
18:51:12 <bigbluehat> ...we'll have to have answers for that, and right now that's scripting...in JavaScript.
18:51:27 <bigbluehat> ...if we restrict JS, we restrict publishing
18:51:36 <tzviya> ack rd
18:51:39 <liisamk> q+
18:51:41 <rachel> +1 - a javascript restriction would be death for educational publishing
18:52:08 <bigbluehat> rkwright: Readium ran into this and had to enable scripting
18:52:21 <tzviya> ack liisamk
18:52:30 <bigbluehat> rdeltour: [said good things that the scribe missed...]
18:53:02 <bigbluehat> liisamk: we also have some examples of things we provide with JavaScript especially in children's books
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18:53:09 <bigbluehat> ...popup callout boxes and things
18:53:14 <mateus> +1 - specs that strictly constrain js would not be viable in publishing; we'd be forced to find non-standard workarounds
18:53:17 <bigbluehat> ...one big thing we often hit is localStorage
18:53:24 <rdeltour> I don't think we can restrict anything for Web Publications, even a SHOULD is too strong. For Packaged WP, we need to align with whatever is said in the packaging spec
18:53:24 <bigbluehat> ...not having that has limited what we can create
18:53:31 <laudrain> +1
18:53:35 <tzviya> q?
18:53:38 <rdeltour> the only area where we could restrict something is in the specific profiles, like EPUB 4
18:53:43 <bigbluehat> leonardr: the secure context would provide localStorage capabilities
18:53:56 <baldurbjarnason> How can we get a secure context for a packaged web publication without TLA-based signing?
18:54:00 <bigbluehat> mattg: what about UA requirements?
18:54:08 <bigbluehat> leonardr: that's perhaps UA specific
18:54:56 <DanielWeck__> DanielWeck__ has joined #pwg
18:54:59 <bigbluehat> leonardr: (in response to baldurbjarnason) so. when it loads content outside of the Web--as in from a file--a custom reading system could load it into a secure context
18:55:03 <DanielWeck__> present+ Daniel Weck
18:55:08 <bigbluehat> q+
18:55:18 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
18:56:08 <Cristina> Cristina has joined #pwg
18:56:20 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat: said interesting things about Browser Extensions use of CSP and secure contexts
18:56:37 <bigbluehat> leonardr: next, Restricting Content (WP) - #91
18:56:57 <bigbluehat> ...No Plugins, No Embed/Object, Restricted CSS, Restricted SVG and MathML
18:57:11 <bigbluehat> ...it would also be a way to keep things out...like Flash for example
18:57:38 <bigbluehat> tzviya: we do often, as publishers, make publications of publishers
18:58:07 <ivan> q+
18:58:15 <tzviya> ack iv
18:58:21 <bigbluehat> leonardr: perhaps (for example) it uses something like an iframe...but we do want to avoid embed and object as they are "old school" things
18:59:06 <bigbluehat> ivan: I'm not quite sure what we could completely restrict here
18:59:16 <bigbluehat> ...because how do we test and enforce these?
18:59:31 <bigbluehat> leonardr: perhaps we restrict the language to prevent use of certain elements
18:59:46 <bigbluehat> ...but some UAs do and some don't support plugins and things--and there's no way we can restrict that support
18:59:53 <bigbluehat> ivan: exactly, there's no way we can restrict all that
19:00:07 <bigbluehat> tzviya: we can recommend no supporting them in a best practices document
19:00:30 <bigbluehat> mattg: epub did this a bit. saying essentially don't rely on these things as they may not exist
19:00:36 <bigbluehat> ...and I agree they can go into a best practices document
19:01:09 <bigbluehat> ...I'm not even sure we need to be specific about recursiveness as UA's will handle that because they have to
19:01:19 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #pwg
19:01:26 <bigbluehat> leonardr: there seems to be a consensus to not restrict anything on the Web, and I'm OK with that as well
19:01:31 <BillM> BillM has joined #pwg
19:01:32 <duga_> duga_ has joined #pwg
19:01:40 <bigbluehat> ...next, Privacy
19:02:03 <bigbluehat> ...it would be great to say "Web Publications and their UAs must not compromise the basic privacy model of the Web."
19:02:38 <bigbluehat> ...in trying to find out what the privacy model for the Web is, it proved quite hard actually
19:02:41 <bigbluehat> ...I did find one.
19:03:12 <garth> garth has joined #pwg
19:03:12 <duga_> q+
19:03:19 <bigbluehat> ...DNT - Do Not Track, P3P - Platform for Privacy Preferences, and POWDER were listed on this privacy document
19:03:48 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/Privacy/
19:04:01 <Karen> Karen has joined #pwg
19:04:02 <bigbluehat> ...there is also a Privacy Considerations for Web Protocols...but its an unofficial draft
19:04:06 <rdeltour> https://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/privacy
19:04:23 <bigbluehat> ivan: there is a privacy check list
19:04:31 <bigbluehat> ...and we will have to look at those
19:05:07 <tzviya> security and privacy checklist https://www.w3.org/TR/security-privacy-questionnaire/
19:05:07 <bigbluehat> ...the big question is are there new privacy things we need to introduce
19:05:16 <bigbluehat> ...in this case it's different than security.
19:05:22 <tzviya> q?
19:05:26 <tzviya> ack du
19:05:37 <Karen> Karen has joined #pwg
19:05:47 <bigbluehat> duga_: the privacy situation on the web amounts to a Privacy Policy linked to someplace on a site..maybe
19:05:53 <bigbluehat> ...that the global understanding of it anyway
19:06:01 <bigbluehat> ...there's not much we have to add to that
19:06:15 <bigbluehat> ...however, we will hit this most with Packaged Web Publications
19:06:35 <bigbluehat> ...if someone distributes that PWP and it includes tracking of some kind
19:06:48 <bigbluehat> ...that person may also be tracked by privacy policies that I agreed to
19:06:53 <rdeltour> q+
19:06:59 <bigbluehat> ...or that by distributing it the PWP is now outside of that policy
19:07:00 <tzviya> q+
19:07:11 <tzviya> ack rd
19:07:14 <liisamk> q+
19:07:17 <bigbluehat> ivan: is there any precedence for this in EPUB3?
19:07:28 <bigbluehat> duga_: disable JS?
19:07:35 <Karen> Karen has joined #pwg
19:07:39 <mattg> q+
19:07:44 <garth_> garth_ has joined #pwg
19:07:50 <bigbluehat> rdeltour: we could require that publishers add metadata about their privacy policies for each publication
19:08:03 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #pwg
19:08:06 <dwood> dwood has joined #pwg
19:08:13 <ivan> ack tzviya
19:08:19 <rdeltour> s/require/allow/
19:08:20 <tzviya> ack tz
19:08:23 <bigbluehat> ivan: so they would need to link to or express their privacy statements in their manifests?
19:08:53 <duga> duga has joined #pwg
19:09:07 <tzviya> ack liisamk
19:09:08 <bigbluehat> tzviya: if we're putting this information in the publication, we actually fall under laws (wrt to GDPR and things)
19:09:12 <ivan> (I think doing what rdeltour sounds good for me)
19:09:26 <bigbluehat> ...so there are things like this that will dictate some of this
19:09:41 <bigbluehat> liisamk: this is a tricky thing. and not something most publishers want to get into
19:09:48 <DanielWeck> DanielWeck has joined #pwg
19:09:49 <tzviya> q?
19:09:50 <bigbluehat> ...readers want to be along when they're reading--and not be watched
19:09:55 <DanielWeck> q+
19:10:20 <tzviya> ack mattg
19:10:24 <DanielWeck> present+ Daniel Weck
19:10:29 <rdeltour> q+ leonardr
19:10:29 <tzviya> q+ leonardr
19:10:37 <dwood> present+
19:10:41 <bigbluehat> ...there is some trust in publishers that if they do any sort of tracking--even links back to their site--that any tracking must comply with legal requirements--especially wrt to children
19:10:57 <ivan> q+
19:11:13 <tzviya> ack DanielWeck
19:11:14 <bigbluehat> mattg: I don't think we should go beyond what's being defined by legal requirements now
19:11:32 <hyejin> hyejin has joined #pwg
19:11:50 <rdeltour> q+
19:11:52 <bigbluehat> DanielWeck: is there anything specific to publishing around analytics and usage patterns? this is common on the Web, but is there something specific to the publishing?
19:12:30 <bigbluehat> tzviya: there's nothing specific, but there are expectations that you're spending far more time with a single publishing--a novel for instance--and consequently revealing very specific information
19:12:52 <laudrain> q+
19:12:54 <bigbluehat> leonardr: when people are off the web they have a very different experience--they expect far less (or more likely no) tracking
19:13:06 <garth_> q?
19:13:09 <bigbluehat> ...at most they may expect to be asked to have data collected about them
19:13:19 <bigbluehat> tzviya: there are expectations changing...especially in education
19:13:21 <tzviya> ack leonardr
19:13:38 <bigbluehat> leonardr: i wanted to go back to duga_'s comment about prior art in terms of tracking
19:13:57 <bigbluehat> ...in acrobat and PDF we stared this sort of effort
19:14:04 <bigbluehat> ...to warn people about documents "phoning home"
19:14:13 <tzviya> q?
19:14:26 <rkwright> It rings every time leonardr is mentioned
19:14:31 <bigbluehat> ...the expectation is that they are offline
19:14:46 <tzviya> ack ivan
19:14:58 <bigbluehat> DanielWeck: things like cookies get called out when they are being used (per law) so perhaps something like that
19:15:21 <bigbluehat> ivan: I think what we can do is list various metadata items that could be added to the core set of information
19:15:49 <bigbluehat> ...in a similar vein we should make some explicit examples that show best practices
19:15:50 <bigbluehat> q+
19:16:11 <bigbluehat> leonardr: if we do that, then we have to pick a specific grammar--and there are a lot of those
19:16:29 <bigbluehat> ...but we'd then also  need to go farther to say what happens when those are expressed
19:16:47 <tzviya> ack rd
19:16:49 <bigbluehat> ivan: so if we express those in the publication then those should be provided to the reader
19:17:13 <bigbluehat> rdeltour: if I go to a web site, there are typically privacy policy links--perhaps we do something very lightweight
19:17:17 <bigbluehat> ...we don't need an ontology
19:17:21 <tzviya> ack laudrain
19:17:28 <dwood> q+
19:17:34 <bigbluehat> leonardr: but there are ontologies for these that we could use
19:17:49 <bigbluehat> laudrain: the main difference between the Web and publications is reading experience
19:18:11 <bigbluehat> ...blogs and things do show some reading time things, but otherwise most of the Web does not provide reading time/scope information
19:18:15 <bigbluehat> ...publications always do
19:18:16 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
19:19:20 <tzviya> ack dwood
19:19:47 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat: should incognito mode--or more accurately "forgetful browsing" be the default for publications?
19:20:19 <bigbluehat> ...things like reading state could be persisted similar to bookmarks (perhaps via annotations), but stay outside of the wider more exposed space of non-incognito-mode browsing
19:20:46 <bigbluehat> dwood: the web is not a private place, and the choices we make here could have similarly wide reaching ramifications
19:20:49 <BillM> q+
19:20:55 <tzviya> ack BillM
19:21:07 <bigbluehat> ...if we miss an opportunity to say things about privacy, then we miss an opportunity and shame on us.
19:21:13 <bigbluehat> BillM: I have a completely different perspective
19:21:26 <bigbluehat> ...on the Web could mean it's being accessed through a browser
19:21:36 <bigbluehat> ...or it could mean it's being accessed through an app that uses the Web
19:21:49 <bigbluehat> ...or it could be just a bunch of Web pieces HTML, etc. and read through a reader
19:21:53 <ivan> q+
19:22:01 <bigbluehat> ...we need to clarify what we mean so we don't fall into a trap
19:22:23 <bigbluehat> ...when it's truly on the Web, then it is exactly in the same space
19:22:36 <bigbluehat> ...when it's offline, then it should come with those privacy expectations.
19:22:50 <bigbluehat> ...but if it's in a browser, it's on the Web
19:22:53 <tzviya> ack ivan
19:23:04 <bigbluehat> ...and completely in that state and subject to that privacy situation
19:23:32 <bigbluehat> ivan: as was mentioned the packaged web publication does introduce other issues
19:23:52 <bigbluehat> ...what I'm interested in right now, does Web Publication (not packaged) introduce any new privacy situations
19:23:59 <bigbluehat> ...we can't solve the privacy situation of the Web
19:24:10 <bigbluehat> ...it's too huge...but we need to be aware of our state within it
19:24:30 <bigbluehat> leonardr: I still have one more thing to cover: Integrity
19:24:51 <bigbluehat> ...there are number of integrity related issues with packaged publications
19:25:12 <bigbluehat> ...but it's not clear to me that there are issues for Web Publications beyond what you get on the Web
19:25:16 <dwood> q+
19:25:36 <bigbluehat> ivan: it's the same kind of issue as before. obviously not enforcing things.
19:25:53 <bigbluehat> ...like with the privacy thing, perhaps we add some slots where I can put some information about signatures
19:25:58 <bigbluehat> ...or signatures of the manifest itself
19:26:14 <bigbluehat> ...or some kind of crypto information that nobody has changed the information since I published it
19:26:31 <bigbluehat> ...do we want to provide a space for that information?
19:26:49 <bigbluehat> leonardr: I'd thought about that and found the Sub-resource Integrity spec
19:27:10 <dauwhe> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/Subresource_Integrity
19:27:11 <bigbluehat> ...i don't think there's more we need to provide beyond that
19:27:47 <bigbluehat> ...as I understand it you can add cryptographic hashes or file information that the UA can match with the resource it requests to be sure they match
19:28:04 <tzviya> ack dwood
19:28:09 <bigbluehat> ivan: I would love to see if this can be done with the "waybill" of the publication
19:28:17 <bigbluehat> ...does that need some additional information?
19:28:36 <bigbluehat> dwood: I noticed that we have 4 success criteria in our charter
19:29:18 <bigbluehat> ..." Each specification should contain a section detailing any known security or privacy implications for implementers, Web authors, and end users. "
19:29:37 <bigbluehat> ...shouldn't we be specific about what happens with reading time, etc?
19:29:52 <bigbluehat> ivan: that section could be almost empty by saying "look at these issues in these other specifications"
19:30:00 <bigbluehat> ...we are not to add anything that is specified elsewhere
19:30:13 <bigbluehat> dwood: the reason that level of reading privacy since the early Web until now
19:30:46 <bigbluehat> ...is because we have a complete scripting language that goes beyond the simple, originally conceived document transport Web
19:30:59 <bigbluehat> ...doing that for publications introduces a user expectation violation
19:31:06 <Karen> q+ for Lars
19:31:16 <bigbluehat> ...users currently have a much higher level of privacy expectations with a publication
19:31:46 <tzviya> ack lars
19:31:55 <bigbluehat> ...I'm not asking that we necessarily have a technical solution, but a social statement
19:32:01 <bigbluehat> ...and yes tzviya I will write it
19:32:51 <tzviya> ack ka
19:32:51 <Zakim> Karen, you wanted to discuss Lars
19:33:02 <ivan> Guest+ Lars_Wallin
19:33:05 <Dan_Sanicola> Dan_Sanicola has joined #pwg
19:33:10 <bigbluehat> Lars(?): there perhaps could be a whitelist of domains or origins, that set an expectation of what this publication will be doing
19:33:17 <ivan> Guests+ Lars_Wallin
19:33:19 <bigbluehat> ...and the user should be told about these expectations
19:33:20 <bigbluehat> q+
19:33:28 <bigbluehat> s/Lars(?)/Lars_Wallin
19:33:34 <bigbluehat> ...this way you make your intentions explicit
19:33:52 <bigbluehat> ...the user can then make the determination
19:33:53 <ivan> present+ karen
19:34:00 <laudrain> q+
19:34:19 <bigbluehat> ...if you then add the publication to your reading system, the publication may spy on you, but we should also keep in mind that more likely the reading system will be spying as well
19:34:28 <mattg> q+
19:34:34 <DanielWeck> DanielWeck has joined #pwg
19:34:44 <bigbluehat> ...and that restricting the publication will not be restricted from its watching of your reading habits, or eye tracking, etc.
19:34:52 <bigbluehat> ...it should enforce the manifest of the publication
19:34:55 <DanielWeck> present+ Daniel Weck
19:35:00 <bigbluehat> ...but the reading system will also need its own privacy policy
19:35:10 <bigbluehat> dwood: I agree the whitelist is a great idea
19:35:22 <bigbluehat> ...I believe the reading system MUST show it to the user
19:35:28 <bigbluehat> ...and not add domains to that list
19:35:33 <bigbluehat> ...can we enforce it? no
19:35:40 <bigbluehat> ...should we say it? yes
19:35:55 <DanielWeck> q+
19:36:01 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
19:36:04 <bigbluehat> Lars_Wallin: by having a whitelist section, we've taken it as far as the publication
19:36:22 <duga> q+
19:37:09 <tzviya> ack laudrain
19:37:30 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat: browser extensions do something similar to what Lars mentioned about whitelist
19:37:33 <bigbluehat> q+
19:37:39 <bigbluehat> q-
19:38:02 <bigbluehat> laudrain: the existing reading systems do spy on users and don't necessarily tell them
19:38:08 <bigbluehat> ...something should certainly be stated
19:38:08 <tzviya> ack mattg
19:38:15 <bigbluehat> ...to restrict that
19:38:29 <bigbluehat> mattg: there are certainly issues around browsing history
19:38:44 <bigbluehat> ...also wanting to be able to erase that history, etc.
19:38:51 <pbelfanti> Q+
19:38:53 <bigbluehat> ...and I think we should explore those parallels
19:38:55 <tzviya> ack DanielWeck
19:39:37 <bigbluehat> DanielWeck: publication wide integrity does not seem possible. we can reference that existing spec, but we'd need to go farther
19:39:47 <bigbluehat> ...in relationship to the content itself, not just its dependencies
19:40:02 <tzviya> ack duga
19:40:03 <hyejin> hyejin has joined #pwg
19:40:03 <laudrain> @bigbluehat : i didn’t meant « restrict » but « explicit »
19:40:25 <bigbluehat> s/restrict/explicit
19:40:51 <bigbluehat> duga: these reading systems will likely be built on browsers. How will they restrict these things?
19:41:07 <bigbluehat> leonardr: there are things being discussed like sub-origins that will help
19:41:18 <tzviya> ack pbelfanti
19:41:26 <bigbluehat> duga: if we release our spec before those, then what?
19:41:31 <bigbluehat> tzviya: it will happen auto-magically
19:41:31 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
19:41:31 <Zakim> Present: George, mateus, tzviya, rachel, lsullam_, duga_, evan, JunGamo, Avneesh, toshiakikoike, clapierre, Garth, marisa_demeglio, Daniel, Weck, dsinger, dauwhe, Tim_Cole, dwood,
19:41:35 <Zakim> ... DaveBrowning, ivan, rkwright, bigbluehat, Luc, takeshi, RickJ, Dan_Sanicola, Takeshi_Kanai, baldurbjarnason, karen
19:41:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see hyejin, DanielWeck, Dan_Sanicola, duga, dwood, toshiakikoike, garth, Karen, BillM, clapierre, Avneesh, JunGamo, laudrain, ivan, evan, mateus, rdeltour, glazou, RickJ,
19:41:37 <Zakim> ... baldurbjarnason, laurentlemeur, takeshi, pbelfanti, timCole, rkwright, lsullam_, Zakim, RRSAgent, leonardr, liisamk, mattg, tzviya, plinss, dauwhe, marisa_demeglio, rachel,
19:41:37 <Zakim> ... github-bot, dbaron, jyasskin, astearns, bigbluehat, ShaneM, wseltzer
19:41:48 <ivan> present+ pbelfanti
19:41:51 <bigbluehat> pbelfanti: it's not like every kind of tracking is ill intentioned.
19:42:29 <bigbluehat> ...it can be part of the use of the publication, and education is a key example where communicating the use of the publication to the educator could be valuable
19:43:00 <bigbluehat> duga: we've been using the word spying a lot. but it's not necessarily done to spy. it might be done for the experience of the text
19:43:10 <bigbluehat> tzviya: so. we have a lot of questions and a few actions
19:43:34 <bigbluehat> ivan: we did mention that there should be a link to a privacy policy or something
19:43:43 <bigbluehat> leonardr: I feel we should hold off on that piece
19:43:50 <bigbluehat> ivan: because
19:44:03 <bigbluehat> leonardr: I don't think we can agree on the method quickly enough for FPWD
19:44:23 <tzviya> q?
19:44:26 <bigbluehat> ivan: in the first public draft i can be totally vague and point to our intentions
19:44:33 <bigbluehat> dwood: if I understand what you
19:44:51 <bigbluehat> ...are saying, then the link to the privacy policy simply points to where they can find the info
19:44:56 <bigbluehat> ...and does seem sufficient for FPWD
19:45:25 <DanielWeck_> DanielWeck_ has joined #pwg
19:45:34 <DanielWeck_> present+ DanielWeck
19:45:41 <bigbluehat> duga: we should keep in mind that there might be several privacy policies governing the various resources
19:45:42 <evan_> evan_ has joined #pwg
19:45:43 <ivan> Topic: Manifest revisit
19:46:57 <ivan> scribenick: laudrain
19:47:12 <laudrain> Rachel presentation
19:47:38 <ivan> present+ lsullam_
19:48:46 <laudrain> Tzviya: four categories
19:49:22 <laudrain> …Discover, Identify, Select, Obtain
19:49:29 <ivan> Guests+ Jasmine_Mulliken
19:49:48 <laudrain> Garth: problem with identity
19:50:11 <laudrain> Tzviya: parent/child and vice-versa
19:50:27 <laudrain> … we made a decision
19:51:22 <laudrain> Tim: question on granularity in obtain
19:51:53 <laudrain> Ivan: consensus : a recource may contain a reference to its parents.
19:52:47 <tzviya> s/recourse/resource
19:53:05 <laudrain> … if a resource belobg to a WP, I may not know about the Publication
19:53:54 <laudrain> … if the publisher want that back link, ok, but is is not an obligation
19:54:44 <laudrain> Ben: it belongs to the discovery thing
19:54:47 <tzviya> q?
19:57:00 <laudrain> … how do you find a thing if it is not in the thing itself?
19:57:44 <laudrain> Tzviya: we don’t need to revisit all
19:58:01 <laudrain> … Discovery: I am a WP
19:58:25 <laudrain> Identity: what is the name of this thing I found
19:58:49 <laudrain> Seelct: s/name/address/
19:59:02 <laudrain> s/Seelct//
19:59:48 <laudrain> … Select: right version?
20:00:17 <laudrain> Tim: info in metadata to tell that
20:00:25 <tzviya> q?
20:00:45 <laudrain> Benjamin: Seelct to disambiguate
20:01:05 <laudrain> Tzviya: Obtain : get it
20:01:58 <laudrain> … opening the book, what happens?
20:03:00 <laudrain> Leonard: depends from where we come
20:03:48 <laudrain> Benjamin: how i have this publication?
20:04:00 <laudrain> … to keep it
20:04:01 <Karen> q+ for Lars Wallin
20:04:37 <timCole> q+
20:04:40 <laudrain> Leonard: where you starts is very significant
20:05:00 <laudrain> Ivan: if i have an URL, what do I get?
20:05:21 <tzviya> ack Lars
20:05:29 <Karen> ack Karen
20:05:29 <Zakim> Karen, you wanted to discuss Lars Wallin
20:05:33 <liisamk> q+
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20:05:58 <laudrain> Lars: a WP as Internet of books, use google and Internet engine to index books
20:06:54 <laudrain> … you identify and select a book, the manifest will tell the context of the WP
20:07:15 <tzviya> q?
20:07:29 <tzviya> ack timCole
20:07:40 <laudrain> Benjamin: what is the user get from that affordance?
20:08:24 <DanielWeck_> q+
20:08:27 <laudrain> Tim: resources listed in the manifest, default reading order
20:09:12 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#wp-enhancements
20:10:04 <laudrain> Ivan: we are degrading what we have done, repeating details
20:10:28 <laudrain> … Issues have been closed, but some stay open
20:10:41 <mattg> q+
20:11:11 <laudrain> Leonard: the pb lay in we do need what the UA will do
20:11:50 <tzviya> ack lii
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20:12:12 <Hadrien> present+
20:12:19 <laudrain> Liisa:example as a sample book, with a chapter for free for discovery
20:12:52 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #pwg
20:13:04 <laudrain> … at some point the user want the book, whatever rule, the uer obtain the book
20:13:13 <ivan> q?
20:13:21 <ivan> q+
20:13:22 <tzviya> ack DanielWeck_
20:13:28 <laudrain> … they end up with the object they want ti read
20:13:57 <laudrain> Daniel: a poosible way to discover is OPS
20:14:03 <tzviya> s/OPS/OPDS
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20:14:55 <tzviya> ack mattg
20:15:05 <laudrain> … obtain:  loading in my context, reading experience with state and context
20:15:32 <laudrain> Matt: what is key is to have the information in the manifest
20:16:14 <laudrain> … we don’t know all the scenarios
20:16:16 <Karen> q+ for Lars
20:16:34 <tzviya> ack ivan
20:16:42 <tzviya> +1000 to matt
20:17:13 <laudrain> Ivan: there is nothing about these scenarios in EPUB3
20:17:42 <laudrain> … it’s a way of implementation
20:18:09 <leonardr> q+
20:18:44 <tzviya> ack Karen
20:18:44 <Zakim> Karen, you wanted to discuss Lars
20:18:48 <laudrain> … Do we try to setup an imaginary system with all the scenarios?
20:19:34 <laudrain> Lars: in the manifest, could be possible to extent to info on individual content document
20:19:55 <leonardr> q-
20:20:26 <laudrain> Daniel: distributable objects
20:21:58 <DanielWeck_> (clarification: DO = humour)
20:21:58 <ivan> q+
20:22:06 <laudrain> Tzviya: to wrapup, read the draft, report holes, open issues, before 2 weeks
20:22:24 <tzviya> ack iv
20:23:13 <laudrain> Ivan: do we want to put something about the discussion yesterday on WAM?
20:23:36 <laudrain> Matt: a summary
20:23:47 <laudrain> Leonard: draft something
20:24:02 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:24:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/07-pwg-minutes.html ivan
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21:37:14 <garth> q?
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21:38:12 <ivan> present+ florian
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21:39:25 <ivan> Topic: Pagination, page transitions
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21:39:57 <ivan> scribenick: pbelfanti
21:40:00 <garth> q?
21:40:19 <tzviya> chair: garth
21:40:37 <dwood> present+
21:41:02 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#Layout
21:41:05 <pbelfanti> Pagination item
21:41:50 <pbelfanti> Florian or Dave to lead discussion
21:42:23 <pbelfanti> Layouts on the web is interesting discussion due to nature of HTML documents
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21:42:42 <pbelfanti> Rules: don't break anything, change as little as possible
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21:43:16 <garth> q?
21:43:45 <pbelfanti> Each ? is created as a separate document
21:44:01 <pbelfanti> Dave:
21:45:05 <pbelfanti> some discussion of differences of publications re how they exist in the world, scrolling, etc.
21:45:19 <pbelfanti> Books don't typically do that
21:45:45 <pbelfanti> Much implementation experience to indicate that paginated experience is desired by users
21:46:06 <leonardr_> q+
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21:46:20 <pbelfanti> More issues come up with paginated docs on the web - real issues that need to be addressed
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21:47:05 <pbelfanti> Garth
21:47:15 <tzviya> s/?/chapter
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21:48:02 <DanielWeck> present+ DanielWeck
21:48:06 <duga> q+
21:48:17 <dauwhe> q+
21:48:20 <pbelfanti> ...counters flowing from document to document, seems like a big challenge. Is this a problem for the PWG to solve? Thought that in Lisbon it was decided that that would be addressed by a different group
21:48:24 <George> present+ George
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21:48:51 <pbelfanti> Florian: issue of collections
21:49:17 <garth> q?
21:49:26 <garth> ack leonardr_
21:49:34 <pbelfanti> ...counters that link to a collection, need to define a sensible model for that
21:50:03 <pbelfanti> Leonard - thanks to Florian for the excellent work so far
21:50:31 <pbelfanti> ... good work on static and flowing model
21:50:36 <tzviya> q?
21:51:21 <pbelfanti> Florian: while the web is typically flowed, while others are paginated. On web model the presentation isn't controlled by the author, but by the reader
21:51:50 <pbelfanti> ...hopefully breowsers will increasingly support pagination. Allow authors to choose their preference
21:51:59 <bigbluehat> s/breowsers/browsers
21:52:16 <pbelfanti> ...second part is that unless we want to reinvent most of web, we can't change what the web calls a document
21:52:44 <pbelfanti> ...CSS, etc. is based on what the web calls a document. must render documents 1 by 1
21:52:50 <JKamata> JKamata has joined #pwg
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21:53:15 <pbelfanti> ...We can try and guide the rendering a bit more than is currently done
21:54:05 <garth> q?
21:54:08 <pbelfanti> ...for pagination, you don't want a lot of interaction(?), you just want to turn the page
21:54:44 <garth> ack duga
21:55:04 <pbelfanti> ...what if documents are different sizes? want to start on the next page, etc. Need to make a distinction between a portable document vs a regular web page
21:55:07 <bigbluehat> q+
21:56:06 <pbelfanti> ...Brady: collections-based CSS - may need to load entire book before counter can calculate and display the content
21:56:53 <pbelfanti> Florian: do we want 1000 page books, with indexes, etc. on the web?
21:56:56 <garth> q?
21:57:32 <pbelfanti> ...Bibliostyle - pages within the browsers, with TOC, indexes. User agent running in javascript with other user agents
21:57:41 <garth> ack dauwhe
21:57:49 <tzviya> s/Bibliostyle/Vivliostyle
21:58:09 <bigbluehat> http://vivliostyle.com/en/ on the web
21:58:28 <garth> ack bigbluehat
21:58:35 <pbelfanti> Dave: counters are not the most important thing, but are a handy example of how to communicate information across docuements. Google will solve the problem :)
21:59:37 <rachel> present+ lars
21:59:44 <liisamk> q+
21:59:48 <rachel> present+ Ken Brooks
22:00:17 <pbelfanti> Florian: What is the expectation that each document/chapter is a separate file? why not one large file for each book?
22:00:32 <pbelfanti> ...maybe it's simpler to have one file
22:00:46 <timCole> q+
22:00:47 <tzviya> q?
22:00:52 <dauwhe> Obligatory link: Moby-Dick as one HTML file http://www.clickhole.com/blogpost/time-i-spent-commercial-whaling-ship-totally-chang-768
22:01:01 <garth> q?
22:01:04 <garth> ack liisamk
22:01:18 <pbelfanti> Ivan  may bwork for some books (Moby Dick) vs calculus book or HTML5 spec
22:01:59 <pbelfanti> Liisa: some reding systems have limitations to the # of images or bytes that are allowed in file
22:02:11 <rachel> s/reding/reading
22:02:48 <pbelfanti> ...also used to indicate page breaks when presentation can't be controlled in a different way
22:03:51 <pbelfanti> Florian: if we are primarily thinking about browsers, must push to have features better supported
22:04:35 <pbelfanti> ...shouldn't develop CSS to address limitations on how certain browsers deal with presentation
22:04:47 <ivan> q?
22:04:52 <ivan> ack timCole
22:05:18 <bigbluehat> q+
22:05:31 <pbelfanti> Tim: List of Html files may be incomplete
22:05:41 <bigbluehat> s/Html/HTML
22:05:54 <garth> q?
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22:06:36 <pbelfanti> Florian: as long as we have top level documents, CSS should be able to render
22:07:10 <pbelfanti> ...will go back to describe when need to work on collections and when not
22:07:22 <garth> q?
22:07:26 <garth> ack bigbluehat
22:08:08 <pbelfanti> Dan: list of HTML resources in not currently a requirement in manifests; what else do we need to include?
22:08:33 <pbelfanti> Florian: from CSS perspective, only thing that exists is a document
22:09:07 <garth> q?
22:09:29 <pbelfanti> ...Need to come to CSS and state: we have this collections of documents, indicate what CSS needs to recognize or ignore
22:10:32 <pbelfanti> SVG can be an image within CSS; no concept of SVG within CSS, just as not HTML
22:10:46 <dauwhe> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#read-media
22:10:58 <timCole> q+
22:11:39 <garth> ack timCole
22:11:44 <pbelfanti> ...CSS point of view: we don't care why there is a document; cncept of collections is probably limited
22:12:21 <pbelfanti> Do we have to be concerned with how many sections, elements?
22:12:36 <pbelfanti> Florian: CSS is comfortable ignoring certain sections
22:13:23 <liisamk> q+
22:13:40 <laudrain> q+
22:14:01 <rachel> q+
22:14:06 <florian> q+
22:14:09 <pbelfanti> Lars: people will read documents on a different number of devices; I'm viewing a page on my phone, but someone next to me is viewing on another device, the pages won't match. We need to use other reference points on the web.Ex: heading levels or some other device
22:14:20 <florian> florian has joined #pwg
22:14:23 <pbelfanti> ...if you have fixed page layouts, fine
22:14:33 <florian> q+
22:14:39 <garth> q?
22:14:56 <pbelfanti> Garth: circumstances where you have externally enforced structure (for accessibility, e.g.)
22:15:28 <rachel> q-
22:15:59 <liisamk> q-
22:16:08 <garth> ack liisamk
22:16:21 <pbelfanti> Tzviya: page markers were defined in EPUB3 spec
22:16:28 <laudrain> q-
22:16:36 <garth> ack florian
22:16:39 <pbelfanti> Liisa: we went away from page numbers, but have since come back
22:16:52 <ivan> q?
22:17:51 <rachel> q+
22:17:59 <pbelfanti> Florian: we want the page numbering mechanism to be possible; page can flex in different devices/views, but can be applied where appropriate
22:18:05 <garth> ack rachel
22:18:32 <pbelfanti> I'm having trouble seeing how this plays into the work we do in this WG
22:18:51 <pbelfanti> Fl: to tell CSS what to do with this collection of documents
22:19:52 <pbelfanti> Ivan: that's true, but it's not a problem, may be something that someone else will do, but we may need to provide use cases for developemnt of features.
22:20:19 <pbelfanti> ...part of the deliverables in an indirect sense; not something this group needs to wrtie  specs for
22:20:40 <liisamk> * or csswg is a room and not people
22:21:07 <pbelfanti> Fl: need to guide CSS WG on how to apply re to collections
22:21:08 <ivan> Subtopic: transitions
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22:21:36 <ivan> Guest: Samuel_Petit
22:24:32 <pbelfanti> Samuel: read doecument re transitions; will be a need to...
22:25:19 <pbelfanti> [sorry - not hearing clearly enough to take notes here]
22:25:55 <pbelfanti> ...Markets everywhere, Japan, US, Europe..
22:26:36 <pbelfanti> ...very interested in the proposition, great for a complicated document
22:26:58 <garth> q?
22:26:59 <pbelfanti> ...in an industry where we are engaged...?
22:27:46 <dauwhe> https://extensiblewebmanifesto.org
22:27:47 <pbelfanti> Florian: don't know how amny are familiar witht he extensible web manifesto
22:28:15 <pbelfanti> What we should do: start with low-level javascript APIs
22:28:44 <pbelfanti> The look back and see what people are doing to implement
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22:31:47 <garth> q?
22:32:40 <pbelfanti> Fl: coming from the POV that what we want to achieve is something that works reasonably well in browsers as they exist today
22:33:22 <pbelfanti> ...currently moving from one object to another does not work well in existing browsers
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22:34:58 <garth> q?
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22:35:43 <Hadrien> q+
22:35:53 <takeshi> q+
22:36:14 <pbelfanti> Florian: agree that web industry at large is based on HTML - need to make HTML work for comic books. Other options will not work on the web, so are not viable solution
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22:36:33 <pbelfanti> ...we need to fix HTML, not find a way not to use it
22:36:36 <tzviya> q?
22:38:18 <florian> q+
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22:39:44 <pbelfanti> Paul clearly needs a break from scribing
22:41:03 <pbelfanti> Hadrien: not just an issue with comics, also with audiobooks
22:41:04 <ivan> ack Hadrien
22:41:07 <garth> ack Hadrien
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22:41:48 <pbelfanti> ...EPUB has not takled the issue of comics, reading systems need to go around HTML, not something that makes it better
22:42:07 <pbelfanti> ..instaed of using a web view, uses a specific viewer
22:42:19 <pbelfanti> ...for viewing images, etc
22:42:34 <garth> q?
22:42:57 <pbelfanti> ...When we think of comics, etc. we mix up things that would normally be handled by the client.
22:43:22 <BillM> BillM has joined #pwg
22:43:23 <pbelfanti> ...vs being reliant on HTML to handle
22:43:29 <ivan> ack takeshi
22:43:36 <garth> ack takeshi
22:44:28 <ivan> ack florian
22:44:28 <pbelfanti> Takeshi: will CSS transition work - some CSS animations work, from object to object. How will transition be designed? Object to object, or other?
22:45:20 <pbelfanti> Fl: no set answer; CSS has ways of handling transitions, animations, etc.
22:46:00 <garth> ack florian
22:46:09 <pbelfanti> ...and navingation; many proposals, none have caught up. Pick your favorite and advocate for it
22:46:12 <Karen> Karen has joined #pwg
22:46:39 <pbelfanti> ...need a standard format for images, transitions, but not what this group is chartered for
22:47:05 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:47:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/07-pwg-minutes.html ivan
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23:24:42 <ivan> Topic: locators
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23:25:17 <tzviya> scribenick: DanielWeck
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23:25:52 <rkwright> is the audio still working?  Remote folks?
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23:26:40 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/publ-loc
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23:26:45 <leonardr_> https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#enh-locators
23:26:52 <DanielWeck> present+ DanielWeck
23:27:30 <rkwright> tcole is moving for you off in the distance.  One moment, please
23:28:14 <DanielWeck> timCole: Media Fragment URLs (identifiers)
23:29:07 <DanielWeck> timCole: Web Annotations model (reference existing spec.)
23:29:22 <leonardr_> q+
23:29:25 <DanielWeck> timCole: CFI Canonical Fragment Identifiers
23:29:45 <DanielWeck> timeCole: Web Annotation selectors and states
23:30:22 <DanielWeck> timeCole: mechanism to express which range of document was highlighted
23:30:35 <rkwright> s/timeCole/timCole
23:30:39 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/publ-loc/
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23:31:30 <DanielWeck> timCole: "publ-loc" selector for fragment of resource, + 2 new members for positioning
23:31:53 <DanielWeck> timCole: position or range between two positions
23:32:19 <tzviya> ack le
23:32:34 <DanielWeck> Leonard: was is the intent? (as this is already defined elsewhere)
23:32:52 <DanielWeck> timCole: selector part of Web Annotation is subset
23:33:10 <DanielWeck> timCole: therefore identify / document it separately
23:34:03 <DanielWeck> ivan: simplifies reading / learning about the selectors part of annots
23:35:24 <DanielWeck> ivan: there is a technical gap, so we reference the selectors in a non-normative way (informative sections about existing specs.) => "delta" document
23:35:46 <DanielWeck> Leonard: is the intent to go back to the annotation WG
23:35:54 <DanielWeck> ivan: WG is closed, does not actually exist
23:36:09 <DanielWeck> ivan: if in future the WG re-opens, then yes will go back to them
23:36:29 <bigbluehat> q?
23:36:31 <bigbluehat> q+
23:36:37 <DanielWeck> timCole: there are other groups beside the PWG that will need this spec.
23:36:52 <DanielWeck> (identify + reference a part out of the whole)
23:37:01 <bigbluehat> q-
23:37:33 <bigbluehat> https://github.com/w3c/publ-wg/pull/6
23:37:44 <bigbluehat> https://github.com/w3c/publ-loc/pull/6
23:37:57 <DanielWeck> timCole: CFI in the fragment identifier part requires obtaining an additional resource (level of indirection)
23:38:35 <DanielWeck> Brady: EPUB itself is the resource, therefore not so different from the contract of the hash / fragment part of URL
23:38:57 <DanielWeck> Leonard: within WP (not Packaged) each resource has its own URL
23:39:33 <DanielWeck> Ivan: we cannot use CFI for various technical reasons
23:40:16 <DanielWeck> ivan: that being said, we need to reproduce functionality, biggest problem was figuring out whether requirements of CFI are still relevant in this WPUB context
23:41:17 <DanielWeck> bigbluehat: is page bias still relevant, for example
23:42:14 <DanielWeck> bigbluehat: annotation for chapter 5 within the publication, cannot just reference the HTML as it may pertain to more than a single publication
23:42:39 <DanielWeck> timCole: scope issue, to be discussion continued
23:43:28 <DanielWeck> timCole: annotation model with JSON multiple properties (instead of single URL frag)
23:43:38 <DanielWeck> s/page bias/side bias/
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23:44:33 <DanielWeck> timCole: text position selector, differs from CFI side bias
23:44:54 <DanielWeck> timCole: how useful has side bias proved to be?
23:45:25 <DanielWeck> Leonard: isn't that similar to refine by in annotations
23:45:25 <DanielWeck> ?
23:45:59 <DanielWeck> ivan: real problem was wew were trying to reproduce feature in CFI, but is it useful?
23:46:10 <DanielWeck> s/wew/we/
23:48:14 <DanielWeck> tzvia: let' walk through the main issues
23:49:56 <ivan> scribenick: evan
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23:50:54 <timCole> q+
23:51:24 <ivan> ack timCole
23:51:25 <ivan> q+
23:51:32 <bigbluehat> q+
23:51:50 <evan> timCole: we have to think about the user agents. do they prefer fragment id’s or are JSON objects enough?
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23:52:15 <tzviya> q?
23:52:17 <tzviya> ack iv
23:52:26 <evan> ivan: if we keep the fragment id’s, a) it’s incredibly ugly and unreadable
23:52:40 <evan> … 2) I think there’s a size limit put on it
23:53:04 <evan> … but the biggest problem is that fragment id’s become valid if they are registered with a specific media type
23:53:22 <evan> … what media type would we register that against? HTML? SVG?
23:53:44 <evan> … to do that, we would have to get those groups to accept it, and I do not see them accepting it
23:54:01 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
23:54:11 <evan> … unless there is a strong use-case, we should drop it
23:54:20 <leonardr> q+
23:54:45 <timCole> q+
23:54:56 <evan> bigbluehat: the use case is linking to a specific item inside a resource
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23:55:15 <George> q+
23:55:18 <evan> … which is the only reason it’s staying around in Apache Annotator
23:55:43 <evan> … some people want to link to specific highlights within a document
23:55:50 <timCole> q-
23:56:27 <tzviya> ack le
23:56:34 <evan> … with a PWP, all bets are off
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23:57:14 <evan> leonardr: is this a conversation to have with the web app working group?
23:57:40 <evan> … this has a lot to do with the Web at large, not specifically with WP
23:57:57 <tzviya> ack George
23:58:01 <evan> … I think we should strongly consider taking this as a general web problem
23:58:10 <evan> george: video and audio are needed as well
23:58:24 <evan> bigbluehat: the web annotation spec allows for that
23:58:49 <evan> timCole: can I suggest that we summarize and move this to an issue to resolve later?
23:59:10 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/publ-loc/issues/9
23:59:39 <evan> … this issue is missing good use-cases
23:59:59 <evan> duga: the obvious use-case would be bookmarks. I want to specify “this page,” but nothing specific on this page
00:00:26 <evan> … the bookmark tends to align to the top, and when you reflow it, you may need to move it
00:00:42 <bigbluehat> here's an example of an annotation selecting a time range in a video using media fragments https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/#example-17
00:00:43 <evan> ivan: you can select the first character of that word (that the bookmark references)
00:01:43 <evan> danielweck: we use CFI extensively. But to be clear, it is not used in authoring tools/interchange
00:01:57 <evan> ivan: if you want to reproduce the way you use it, is that selector enough?
00:02:14 <evan> … we originally had 2 ways of specifying the selector
00:02:31 <evan> … and then we added this position selector in
00:02:46 <evan> … where we select something that is not a selection, but a character or space in between
00:03:10 <evan> … the reason I do not really like it is that when you look at the selectors, those are operations that you can do on top of HTML or the DOM tree
00:03:18 <evan> … these positions are not in the DOM
00:03:42 <evan> danielweck: that’s not true. you’re going to have to deal with the DOM Range API
00:04:33 <evan> … I believe text selectors are about UTF code points, CFI uses something else
00:04:39 <evan> … I do not know what is the best option
00:04:55 <duga> q+
00:05:03 <garth> q?
00:05:36 <evan> bigbluehat: the vast majority of what we ended up with in web-anno was dictated by JavaScript
00:05:56 <tzviya> ack duga
00:06:14 <evan> … it was the best thing we had at the time
00:06:26 <evan> duga: one thing I haven’t seen is sortability. is it sortable?
00:07:18 <evan> … (example) I have a manifest with a list of all those annotations. How do I know what order to present them to the user?
00:07:53 <evan> ivan: if you have five in one chapter, there is not something you can do
00:08:03 <evan> bigbluehat: annotation does have an annotation collection system
00:08:20 <evan> … you would have a collection relating to the document
00:08:40 <evan> timcole: if you always use textposition, then you would know
00:09:05 <evan> leonardr: theoretically, you could also use CSS
00:09:59 <evan> ivan: we seem to not have an agreement on the fragment id. we hope to get feedback from the FPWD
00:10:56 <evan> … (re: #9) what do we do with this issue now?
00:11:32 <evan> tzviya: we need more input from people who really use CFI (VitalSource)
00:12:01 <evan> bigbluehat: the web-anno spec can support new selectors later. we need to resolve the position item now
00:12:50 <evan> leonardr: we can’t compare epub-cfi to what we need today for web publications because they are apples and oranges
00:13:24 <evan> tzviya: i don’t agree. the reason that we’re looking at CFI is that we’re looking at the world of publishing
00:13:53 <evan> … EPUB-CFI exists as a way of locating content, which is why we’re looking at it, not because it’s part of EPUB
00:14:13 <evan> leonardr: in the PDF world, we use fragment identifiers
00:14:36 <evan> … you can identify to most of the things addressed in the selector model. it’s an equivalent model
00:14:48 <evan> … could/should we be able to do the same thing?
00:15:32 <evan> tzviya: Brady and Daniel: Ben and Tim will split this into issues that you can address
00:15:58 <evan> ivan: we must follow the model of the web-anno document, and provide examples of use-cases
00:16:29 <evan> Harien: nothing stops people from using the right-most part of CFI
00:16:35 <evan> … you can continue using CFI internally with WP/PWP, I don't see the issue really
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00:16:42 <evan> … but that doesn't mean that we need to do anything about it at a WG level
00:16:42 <ivan> s/Harien/Hadrien/
00:17:00 <evan> timcole: can someone explain side-bias?
00:17:26 <evan> garth: maybe we can lose side-bias
00:18:08 <bigbluehat> q+
00:18:18 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
00:18:20 <evan> danielweck: if we do not require canonical, offline identifiers, then we don’t need to use fragment ids
00:18:53 <evan> bigbluehat: CFI is far more brittle in nature
00:19:11 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/publ-loc/issues/24
00:19:29 <evan> timCole: (re: #24) you typically use this in a refinement
00:19:57 <evan> … this relates to multi-selectors, which allows you to select disjointed parts
00:20:18 <bigbluehat> q+
00:20:37 <evan> … how important is it to talk about this in the context of the greater web publication?
00:20:37 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
00:21:58 <evan> bigbluehat: I think there’s two situations. In the example of selecting in chapter 5, you’ll need to know what’s next (chapter 6?) if you are selecting across that boundary
00:22:01 <dwood> q+ to ask how publishers using CFI handle updates
00:22:30 <evan> tzviya: you mentioned discontinuous. that depends on how it’s implemented. I could see someone wanting to use it as a collection tool
00:22:36 <evan> q+
00:22:59 <evan> … it’s a little bit of a weird use-case, though
00:23:10 <evan> ivan: the original use-case for this was a use-case from Rachel
00:23:18 <leonardr> q+
00:23:23 <evan> … it was very clearly a use-case of textbooks using that
00:23:24 <tzviya> ack dwood
00:23:24 <Zakim> dwood, you wanted to ask how publishers using CFI handle updates
00:23:53 <evan> dwood: coming from an editor company, our tooling is used to author or update content. We’ve wrestled with issue with any kind of locator inside the content
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00:24:13 <evan> … clearly there are advantages to setting it in the content, and advantages to setting it externally
00:24:36 <ivan> Guests: Kenneth_Brooks
00:24:51 <evan> Kenneth_Brooks: when we do this, we have someone go in and update the CFI
00:25:15 <rdeltour> q+
00:25:20 <tzviya> ack evan
00:25:28 <bigbluehat> scribenick: bigbluehat
00:25:36 <bigbluehat> evan: and additional use case we have is annotating poetry
00:25:49 <bigbluehat> ...they're not necessarily next to each other in the rhyming scheme
00:25:50 <tzviya> ack leonardr
00:25:57 <tzviya> ack rdeltour
00:26:01 <bigbluehat> scribenick: evan
00:26:12 <leonardr> qq+
00:26:14 <leonardr> q+
00:26:58 <evan> rdeltour: in our selectors, it depends on what you’re selecting (video, image, etc.). this means that you need to specify which type of resource the selector is selecting
00:27:12 <evan> … but could it be used to select an element (for instance) in the shadow DOM
00:27:23 <leonardr> q-
00:28:05 <evan> ivan: the whole concept was that this was part of the web annotation. do we have to define more than that for our use-case?
00:28:30 <evan> … the “result” of selctions
00:28:58 <evan> tzvyia: let’s wrap up. We have a lot of action items. Ivan?
00:29:25 <evan> ivan: the main action item is that this document needs to be reviewed. It’s hardly been reviewed outside of editors
00:29:39 <evan> … we need to have a review from people who have experience with EPUB CFI
00:29:57 <evan> … are those entries that we’ve added necessary? yes or no?
00:30:37 <ivan> Topic: Wrap of the meeting
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00:31:04 <DanielWeck> scribe: me
00:31:09 <DanielWeck> present+ DanielWeck
00:31:17 <ivan> scribenick: DanielWeck
00:31:53 <DanielWeck> tzvyia: many open issues, we must go over the minutes, write summary, we did re-hash a number of topics
00:32:02 <DanielWeck> emphasis: not re-inventing the web
00:32:14 <DanielWeck> it's okay to have lots of open issues
00:32:21 <DanielWeck> we want people to comment / contrinute
00:32:42 <rdeltour> s/contrinute/contribute/
00:32:50 <DanielWeck> we need input from everybody
00:33:09 <DanielWeck> concern: during this meeting we talked about things we talked about 6 months ago
00:33:43 <DanielWeck> definitions of web publication, packaged / EPUB4: we'll come back to that in due time
00:33:53 <bigbluehat> q+
00:34:23 <DanielWeck> ivan: practical level, publish FPWD this year, must have consensus on contents
00:34:34 <laurentlemeur> q+
00:34:46 <leonardr> q+
00:35:18 <DanielWeck> task: harmonize spec language styles (contributions from various people_)
00:36:01 <DanielWeck> a few Pull Requests to process, but not many. good shape for FPWD overall
00:36:13 <DanielWeck> ivan: more worried about PWP document
00:36:43 <DanielWeck> *Packaged* Web Publications
00:37:15 <DanielWeck> ivan: clarify that packaging formats pros/cons various choices (list of potential candidates)
00:37:50 <DanielWeck> ivan: Matt Garrish already has tons on his plate with WP, we need somebody to take ownership of PWP
00:38:13 <DanielWeck> hEAther to help with cleanup work, but not the person for PWP draft
00:38:22 <DanielWeck> q?
00:38:23 <tzviya> q?
00:38:27 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
00:39:20 <tzviya> ack laurentlemeur
00:39:45 <DanielWeck> laurent: scope for first draft? serialization of "manifest" "waybill"
00:40:13 <DanielWeck> first draft without prototype? we want to attract web developers to comment on draft
00:40:35 <DanielWeck> ivan: ideal world: yes, prototype would be nice
00:40:53 <DanielWeck> ivan: consensus with JSON, maybe detail discussion about HTML entry point
00:41:22 <DanielWeck> ivan: discussions outcome about Web App Manifest etc. will be in draft
00:41:55 <DanielWeck> ivan: mid-november now, need to be realistic
00:42:40 <DanielWeck> ivan: as soon as document published, then next draft with prototype
00:43:29 <tzviya> ack leonardr
00:43:30 <DanielWeck> ivan: the real concern of stakeholders was about this groups re-defining HTML, forking the web etc.
00:43:49 <mattg> q+
00:43:51 <DanielWeck> JSON serialization not a worry
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00:44:28 <DanielWeck> laurent: use case document to be updated / maintained
00:44:53 <DanielWeck> ivan: possibly WG note later
00:44:55 <DanielWeck> good idea
00:45:19 <DanielWeck> Leonard: dial-in meeting schedule / logistics
00:45:21 <DanielWeck> ?
00:45:37 <tzviya> q?
00:45:51 <tzviya> ack mattg
00:46:13 <DanielWeck> Matt: ugly placeholders, to become issues, how to assign?
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00:46:59 <DanielWeck> ivan: placeholders are okay, we know they have to be taken care of later
00:47:04 <dwood> Maybe that's what dauwhe does at dinner.
00:47:31 <tzviya> q?
00:47:33 <DanielWeck> Matt will create issues
00:47:40 <DanielWeck> ivan: want PWP editor "_
00:48:04 <DanielWeck> tvzvia: we need participation, there is still confusion, right?
00:48:33 <DanielWeck> ...people confused about "package", is this a problem / open issue?
00:48:48 <dwood> q+
00:49:01 <DanielWeck> laurent: CBOR, zip, different requirements / solutions
00:49:03 <tzviya> ack dwood
00:49:04 <leonardr> q+
00:50:37 <DanielWeck> david w: 3 months and maybe beyond that, significant time for PWP
00:50:55 <DanielWeck> (david wood)
00:50:56 <tzviya> ack leonardr
00:51:28 <DanielWeck> next meeting: next monday
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00:52:08 <DanielWeck> claps
00:52:10 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
00:52:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/07-pwg-minutes.html ivan
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