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16:43:25 <ivan_> rrsagent, set log public
16:43:25 <ivan_> Meeting: Publishing Working Group F2F
16:43:25 <ivan_> Chair: tzviya, Garth
16:43:25 <ivan_> Date: 2017-11-06
16:43:25 <ivan_> Agenda: https://goo.gl/tjSdk4
16:43:25 <ivan_> ivan_ has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda TPAC F2F: https://goo.gl/tjSdk4
16:43:36 <ivan_> present+
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16:47:57 <mateus> present+
16:48:48 <laudrain> present+ Luc
16:49:11 <garth> Oh, yea, you *say* you’re sorry!  :-).  Hope you feel better.
16:49:22 <garth> present+ Garth
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16:50:17 <leonardr> present+ Leonard
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17:00:35 <tzviya> present+
17:01:04 <tzviya> agenda: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12J3Y3bb5fdPh1r2XH9YloINkNSxBJArocKY108sYCZ0/edit?ts=59f9d1e3#heading=h.9kn2s1bey23f
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17:04:01 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
17:04:09 <clapierre> present+ charles_lapierre
17:05:05 <BenSchroeter> present+ BenSchroeter
17:05:37 <duga> present+
17:05:51 <cmaden21> present+ Chris_Maden
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17:06:26 <rkwright> present+
17:06:53 <rachel> present+
17:07:48 <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
17:08:02 <dauwhe> Zakim, who is here?
17:08:04 <Zakim> Present: ivan_, mateus, Luc, Garth, Leonard, tzviya, dauwhe, charles_lapierre, BenSchroeter, duga, Chris_Maden, rkwright, rachel, Takeshi_Kanai
17:08:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see rkwright, takeshi, BenSchroeter, clapierre, cmaden21, ReinaldoFerraz, duga, cmaden2, leonardr, mateus, garth, laudrain, timCole, laurentlemeur, BillM, RRSAgent, Zakim,
17:08:04 <Zakim> ... ivan_, Karen, tzviya, dauwhe, rachel, plinss, github-bot, dbaron, jyasskin, astearns, bigbluehat, ShaneM, wseltzer
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17:08:15 <laurentlemeur> present+ Laurent
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17:08:53 <rkwright> INtroductions first
17:10:20 <cmaden21> present- Chris_Maden
17:10:26 <ivan_> present+ george
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17:11:10 <timCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
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17:11:14 <evan> present+
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17:11:36 <cmaden21> regrets+ Chris_Maden
17:11:43 <Avneesh> present+
17:11:45 <rkwright> scribenick rkwright
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17:11:53 <ivan_> scribenick: rkwright
17:11:56 <George> present+ George
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17:12:08 <garth> Dinner: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X2BgP5mP1xuwQvT-IK1xNTnsw73wrJB_fdtxbHEOp34/edit
17:12:44 <rkwright> Garth: Dinner plan is in your email, across the freeway, an easy walk (see link above)
17:13:36 <rkwright> ... Room holds 22, please sign up .  Everyone needs to kick in $30  Give money to Garth, but be sure to get a receipt!
17:14:46 <liisamk_> liisamk_ has joined #pwg
17:14:55 <rkwright> Tzviya:  welcome everyone. We are going to go over protocols, general plans, etc.
17:14:59 <dwood> dwood has joined #pwg
17:15:10 <liisamk_> present + Liisa McCloy-Kelley
17:15:17 <garth> Dinner location: https://www.fattoriaemare.com/
17:15:21 <rkwright> ... for tomorrow note that we are swapping the morning and afternoon agendas
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17:15:52 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/WorkMode/
17:17:20 <rkwright> ... same old procedures.  Everybody should know the drill.  BUt make sure you are signed up to watch all the repostiories on github
17:17:25 <hyejin> hyejin has joined #pwg
17:17:38 <rkwright> ... patent policy is the same as always (W3C)
17:18:58 <rkwright> Ivan: We need to be very careful to keep github issues focused so don't mix issues.  If in doubt, open a new issue
17:19:47 <rkwright> ... Note that if we get to recommendation point, then if we keep all the issues/repos in good shape we will be better off
17:20:24 <rkwright> ... Query:  Are there still workflow problems we need to look at
17:20:57 <toshiaki-koike> toshiaki-koike has joined #pwg
17:21:02 <rkwright> tcole: Bear in mind that we work/interact with other groups, so we need to keep those interactions visible
17:21:58 <rkwright> ivan: we have a good set of labels for the issues, but if you feel that others are needed, please let Ivan know
17:22:08 <tzviya> q?
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17:22:43 <rkwright> george: note that more people will be joining the WG, so if we have a guide to help the on-boarding process
17:23:25 <rkwright> ivan: there is such a "noob" guide.  If anyone sees that anything is wrong or missing there, please generate a PR to correct that
17:23:31 <DaveBrowning> Present+ DaveBrowning
17:23:45 <tzviya> topic: FPWD update
17:24:46 <rkwright> ...  Just to remind evryone, the first working draft is extremely important.  So it is critical that the first draft be clear and precise
17:24:55 <toshiaki-koike> present+
17:25:09 <tzviya> FPWD https://w3c.github.io/wpub/
17:25:19 <garth> MOVED PUSHING WG DINNER TO 7:00p — to make room for folks attend most of the Benetech reception 6:00p to 7:00p at the Hyatt 3SIXTY bar.
17:25:42 <rkwright> ... This is especially important as this group is new and there is some concern in other WGs that we may try to "re-invent web"
17:26:09 <garth> Er, PUBLISHING DINNER.
17:27:11 <rkwright> ... this doesn't mean that we have to solve all the technical issues in the first public draft.
17:27:40 <rkwright> ... we need to publish that first public draft by the end of 2017
17:28:11 <tzviya> q?
17:28:29 <rkwright> ... the FPWD is also important because it may have patents, implicit or explicit
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17:29:11 <rkwright> ... we need both the WP and PWP documents, though the latter is likely to be much shorter
17:30:05 <rkwright> ... also need a first draft of the EPUB-Aria-2 spec by March
17:30:33 <rkwright> ... also we need a FPWD of EPUB4 by end of Q1 2018 (yikes!)
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17:30:58 <tzviya> q?
17:31:17 <timCole> q+
17:31:24 <rkwright> george:  what are the expectations for the samples that will be in FPWD?
17:32:07 <rkwright> tzviya:  This is TBD, depending on what the actual content of the FPWD is
17:32:23 <tzviya> q?
17:32:25 <rkwright> Luc: Perhaps we need to create some of those examples
17:32:37 <tzviya> ack ti
17:32:50 <rkwright> ivan:  That is a goal but not a requirement for FPWD
17:33:19 <leonardr> q+
17:33:23 <dwood> dauwhe++
17:33:42 <rkwright> tcole: We also are on the hook for a draft on locators.  What is the expectation for that?
17:34:31 <rkwright> ivan: in the charter we wave our hands so it is OK to, for example, to have a separate Locator document
17:34:36 <tzviya> q?
17:34:42 <tzviya> ack l
17:35:00 <rkwright> leonardr: Are we going to discuss Locators tomorrow?
17:35:03 <rkwright> ivan: yest
17:35:26 <rachel> s/yest/yes
17:36:02 <rkwright> tzviya: Do we think we are on track?
17:36:14 <rkwright> leonardr: yes
17:37:31 <rkwright> tzviya: Most of the people in the WG are from the publishing industry.  We need to ensure that we garner support from other members/WGs of the W3C
17:37:56 <rkwright> ivan:  This is one of the reasons we need to get the FPWD out, so we can beat the bushes to get that support and input
17:39:27 <rkwright> ... Also, we need to reach out to the browser community and try to get participation or at least input from the big 4 browsers
17:39:31 <dwood> q+ to ask whether anyone has approached a browser vendor for early implementation.
17:39:54 <rkwright> ... They have said they are waiting to see the FPWD
17:40:03 <tzviya> ack dw
17:40:03 <Zakim> dwood, you wanted to ask whether anyone has approached a browser vendor for early implementation.
17:40:37 <rkwright> dwood:  Has there been preliminary discussions with the browser-folks?
17:41:42 <rkwright> ivan: We first need indicate what our direction is, i.e. the FPWD THEN it will be time to engage in that conversation
17:41:57 <rkwright> s/ivan/ivan_
17:42:06 <laudrain> q+
17:42:30 <rkwright> dwood: I believe that engagement takes a long time so we need to get started
17:42:32 <leonardr> +1 on waiting till the FPWD is published
17:43:06 <rkwright> ivan_ : The browsers have indicated they are waiting for the FPWD
17:43:16 <tzviya> q?
17:43:42 <tzviya> ack la
17:43:51 <rkwright> dwood: In our experience it took years to get that dialog going and see any fruit (i.e. implementation in the browser)
17:44:45 <rkwright> laudrain: It is important to start testing our proposals against the browsers.  This can start the dialog
17:45:14 <timCole> q+
17:45:28 <tzviya> ack ti
17:45:32 <rkwright> ivan_ : That is correct, this is part of starting the dialog.  We have seen this in the CSS WG
17:46:00 <rkwright> tcole:  Note that we need to ensure that that the specs are written in such a way that they are testable
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17:47:01 <rkwright> ivan_ : this is very true, we are still looking for a testing champion (since Ric has weaseled out)
17:48:14 <rkwright> tzviya:  Yes, this is very important.  We need someone to step up
17:48:39 <rkwright> mateus:  willing to help but cannot lead the effort
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17:49:56 <rkwright> takeshi: I would be able to help out but cannot take the lead
17:50:17 <leonardr> q+
17:50:21 <tzviya> ack l
17:50:46 <rkwright> ivan_ : We really need some one to step up to do this.
17:50:51 <timCole> q+
17:50:52 <bigbluehat> q+
17:51:21 <rkwright> ...  there are some extensive tests in the W3C for testing, but it isn't clear that this will be sufficient
17:51:33 <tzviya> ack tim
17:51:36 <garth> q?
17:51:44 <rdeltour> q+
17:53:00 <rkwright> tcole: One of the aspects we need to pay attention to is to verify that the features we spec are implementable (as opposed to testable)
17:53:03 <tzviya> ack big
17:53:25 <dwood> q+ to suggest GitHub tagging for testing context
17:53:45 <ivan_> zakim, who is here?
17:53:45 <Zakim> Present: ivan_, mateus, Luc, Garth, Leonard, tzviya, dauwhe, charles_lapierre, BenSchroeter, duga, rkwright, rachel, Takeshi_Kanai, Laurent, george, mattg, rdeltour,
17:53:49 <Zakim> ... ReinaldoFerraz, bigbluehat, Tim_Cole, Cristina, JunGamo, evan, marisa_demeglio, Avneesh, DaveBrowning, toshiaki-koike
17:53:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see Cristina, mattg, marisa_demeglio, DaveBrowning, toshiaki-koike, hyejin, lsullam, dwood, liisamk_, baldurbjarnason, Avneesh, George, JunGamo, evan, rdeltour, rkwright,
17:53:52 <Zakim> ... takeshi, BenSchroeter, clapierre, ReinaldoFerraz, duga, leonardr, mateus, garth, laudrain, timCole, laurentlemeur, BillM, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan_, Karen, tzviya, dauwhe, rachel,
17:53:52 <Zakim> ... plinss, github-bot, dbaron, jyasskin, astearns, bigbluehat, ShaneM, wseltzer
17:53:53 <tzviya> q?
17:54:14 <rkwright> bigbluehat: We are not ready to write tests because we don't have the spec, but we need people who will keep track whether the spec is both implementable and testable
17:54:38 <rkwright> ... You don't need to be a developer for this
17:54:39 <tzviya> ack rd
17:55:37 <rkwright> rdeltour: Do we have any concrete requirements for what the tests will be like?  API?  Declarative?  JS?
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17:56:18 <rkwright> ivan_ : It is up to us to decide what the testing environment and the tests themselves are like
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17:56:36 <tzviya> q?
17:57:11 <rkwright> ... The key is that when we get to point of a recommendation, that we have a concrete plan to test the specification
17:57:13 <tzviya> q?
17:57:28 <tzviya> ack dw
17:57:28 <Zakim> dwood, you wanted to suggest GitHub tagging for testing context
17:58:24 <rkwright> dwood: In the absence of tests which we don't have yet we do need to layout a skeletal plan for what those tests might be.
17:58:31 <bigbluehat> +1 to dwood's thinking here
17:58:39 <laurentlemeur> q+
17:58:41 <garth> q?
17:58:43 <tzviya> ack la
17:59:55 <rkwright> tzviya: Are there existing resources in the W3C to help us in this process?
18:00:19 <rkwright> ivan_ : not really.  there is a test harness but there are not dedicated resources
18:00:41 <rkwright> ... and it is clear that the web-platform tests will be sufficient
18:00:49 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests
18:00:53 <laurentlemeur> EDRLab has no experience in testing a specification. But as EDRLab will implement the spec in Readium, we'll fully test our implementation of the spec, which is already a good asset.
18:01:00 <dwood> Specifically, I suggested that GitHub issues should be created against spec sections. Further, GitHub tags for the various types of tests (DOM, API, manual, etc) should be added to the issues in order to assist the eventual test coordinator.
18:01:17 <rkwright> tess: I have some experience.
18:01:21 <rkwright> q+
18:01:55 <tzviya> ac krk
18:01:58 <tzviya> ack rk
18:03:04 <rkwright> rkwright: I am happy to help but can't commit to leading it.  I do have some TIME available, but can't afford to work for free (my management objects)
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18:04:45 <ivan_> guests+ Tess_oconnor
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18:42:29 <garth> present+
18:42:29 <dwood> present+
18:42:31 <BillM> present+
18:42:35 <toshiaki-koike> present+
18:42:36 <lsullam> present+
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18:42:49 <garth> q?
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18:43:31 <mateus> present+
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18:44:05 <garth> q?
18:44:42 <duga> scribenick: duga
18:44:47 <mattg> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/wiki/Options-for-Processing-a-Manifest
18:44:53 <duga> scribenick duga
18:45:09 <duga> bigbluehat: We are calling these Bill of Lading
18:45:18 <bigbluehat> well...it's clearer anyhow :)
18:45:25 <bigbluehat> q+
18:45:29 <garth> Or even Waybill
18:45:38 <bigbluehat> garth++ much shorter
18:45:46 <duga> mattg: Questions - if we go with Web App manifest, how does the work withthings we want in WP
18:45:50 <leonardr> we have too many Bill's already on this committee :)
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18:46:05 <duga> ...: App itself is self contained
18:46:13 <garth> q?
18:46:18 <duga> ... not true with publications
18:46:21 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pwg
18:46:54 <duga> ... web app manifest and WP are different use cases
18:47:08 <timCole> timCole has joined #pwg
18:47:16 <duga> ... web app is installation, WP has pagination, etc, etc
18:47:30 <leonardr> q+
18:48:07 <duga> ... Can we extend web app manifest for our needs? [WAM here out]
18:48:33 <ivan_> q+
18:48:52 <duga> ... Use WAM as is, or extend WAM, or make our own thing?
18:49:00 <garth> This link?  https://github.com/w3c/wpub/wiki/Options-for-Processing-a-Manifest
18:49:07 <garth> q?
18:49:09 <tzviya> ack bi
18:49:12 <garth> ack bigbluehat
18:49:15 <leonardr> @hadrien - IIF?  Image operability?
18:49:16 <duga> bigbluehat: +1 Matt!
18:49:28 <duga> ... WAM doesn't really manifest anything
18:49:38 <Hadrien> @leonardr yes
18:49:40 <duga> ... points to a URL, and has some stuff about icons.
18:49:52 <garth> q?
18:50:16 <duga> ... We need something bigger, with, say, a Manifest (or Bill of Lading, etc)
18:50:26 <laudrain> Waybill : http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/waybill.html
18:50:35 <BillM> q+
18:51:10 <duga> ... We need a *lot* more in our manifest
18:51:14 <tzviya> q?
18:51:20 <garth> ack leonardr
18:51:22 <garth> q?
18:51:42 <duga> leonardr: One thing we are divided on is whether a pub can also be an app
18:51:57 <dwood> +1 to bigbluehat's comments. We might also need support for authentication components in the WAM on a per-resource basis.
18:52:04 <tzviya> q?
18:52:06 <duga> ... Can the user experience be bundled with the publication itself
18:52:18 <duga> bigbluehat: You can use a WAM to point at a single web page
18:52:34 <garth> q?
18:52:48 <duga> ... They are starting to hook in service workers
18:53:16 <duga> garth: Seems like a bad direction to allow bundling of publications
18:53:33 <laudrain> +1
18:53:35 <garth> q?
18:53:39 <duga> ... Content can last a long time, but Reading software will stop working
18:53:40 <garth> ack ivan_
18:53:46 <tzviya> +1 to ga
18:53:59 <tzviya> s/ga/garth
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18:54:05 <duga> ivan_: WAM is registered as an official media type
18:54:12 <bigbluehat> q+
18:54:23 <duga> ... browser will have built in behavior for that media type, even if we don't want it to
18:54:42 <duga> ... So if a built in behavior conflicts with what we want to do, that can bite us
18:54:54 <rdeltour> q+
18:54:55 <duga> ... We can not tell the browser to not do certain things
18:54:56 <bigbluehat> Web App Manifest (WAM) https://w3c.github.io/manifest/
18:55:14 <duga> ... We have a divergence, what do we do?
18:55:20 <duga> .... 1) diverge entirely
18:55:38 <duga> ... 2) get them to accept we diverge and get them to split the spec
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18:55:46 <Daniel_Weck> present+ Daniel Weck
18:55:54 <Hadrien> present+
18:56:24 <duga> ... We could share some data structures, but actual processing diverges.
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18:56:31 <laurentlemeur> q+
18:56:33 <garth> q?
18:56:50 <garth> q?
18:56:55 <tzviya> ack bill
18:56:55 <duga> ... Need the WAM people here to help us decide if 2 is a reasonable path forward
18:56:57 <tzviya> q+
18:57:02 <tzviya> q-
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18:57:32 <duga> BillM: Bikeshedding on names
18:57:46 <duga> ... Waybill isn't publication specific
18:58:20 <tzviya> q?
18:58:21 <duga> ... find something that expresses structure
18:58:51 <tzviya> ack big
18:59:03 <duga> bigbluehat: Table of contents is good!
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18:59:42 <duga> ... Other topic: what happens when a browser sees a Waybill by itself?
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18:59:54 <tzviya> q?
19:00:05 <duga> ivan_: What does it mean then that there is a claim that several browsers support WAM?
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19:00:20 <garth> q?
19:00:23 <duga> bigbluehat: The manifest is irrelevant to the browser until the user says "download"
19:01:00 <duga> ... The presence of download UI is triggered by the reference, not the media type
19:01:29 <dwood> q+
19:01:54 <duga> ... WAM and Waybill are very different models
19:01:58 <garth> q?
19:02:08 <duga> ... not sure WAM is ready to have us cram all our stuff in their spec
19:02:08 <timCole> typically the trigger is the rel type in the link, e.g., <link rel="manifest" href="/manifest.json">
19:02:16 <garth> ack rdeltour
19:02:16 <duga> ... WAM may be a bad foundation
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19:02:31 <duga> rdeltour: +1 bigbluehat
19:03:10 <garth> q?
19:03:28 <Hadrien> @timCole and the fact that the rel is the trigger is IMO a bug, not a feature of the WAM spec
19:03:32 <duga> ivan_: Welcome Kenneth from WAM
19:03:51 <duga> bigbluehat: Summarizing for Kenneth
19:04:49 <ivan_> Guest+ Kenneth
19:05:24 <laudrain> FWIW : https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/
19:05:59 <duga> Kenneth: We try to keep WAM as simple as possible, to avoid adding things we later regret
19:06:10 <tzviya> q?
19:06:10 <garth> q?
19:06:25 <duga> ... using other tech (eg service workers) to provide functionality (like file lists)
19:07:27 <duga> bigbluehat: We want something between appcache and service workers
19:08:10 <duga> garth: Things in our manifest: metadata, default reading order, list of other resources (not primary), and a fourth one? Which he forgets
19:08:37 <bigbluehat> The Lifecycle section of our spec https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#wp-lifecycle
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19:08:56 <duga> ivan_: Our view of WAM is, you install something that is an app by itself
19:09:25 <duga> ... publishing is much more declarative view
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19:09:44 <duga> ... the app part is outside the manifest
19:10:08 <duga> leonardr_: We disagree
19:10:35 <duga> ivan_: Ok, then "not necessarily" included
19:10:53 <duga> ... our manifest is data, full stop
19:11:34 <duga> Kenneth: WAM has metadata about the app
19:11:42 <duga> ... like should there be a status bar, etc
19:12:30 <garth> q?
19:12:40 <duga> ... in WAM, pushing as much as possible to service workers
19:12:43 <tzviya> q?
19:13:02 <garth> ack laurentlemeur
19:13:14 <tzviya> q+
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19:13:25 <duga> laurentlemeur: WP manifest could be a subclass of WAM. But personally, don't see it that way
19:14:00 <duga> ... We may have multiple pubs in one app
19:14:27 <duga> ... many people will want to choose what app to read the pub in (eg a11y case)
19:15:00 <garth> q?
19:15:04 <duga> ... we don't want to rely on the web, like service workers, since we may not always have the web case (eg reading an book)
19:15:10 <timCole> q+
19:15:35 <duga> Kenneth: Don't see a problem using WAM for that
19:15:54 <duga> ... currently, the manifest points to service worker, but you could point at something else
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19:16:21 <duga> bigbluehat: You can do that today, did it for my demo
19:16:21 <tzviya> q-
19:16:54 <duga> ... Made a service worker that had an html doc that pointed at the actual resources. Then could have a WAM that points at that doc
19:17:13 <garth> q+ tzviya
19:17:15 <duga> ... doable now, but question is, what is the Bill of Lading? Where does it live? Do we need a service worker?
19:17:46 <garth> ack dwood
19:17:52 <duga> dwood: WAMs are a good idea
19:18:16 <duga> ... We have a need for an app specific purpose, not something that is general purpose
19:18:19 <ivan_> present+ Daniel_Weck
19:18:44 <duga> ... A little scared by: caching. Have very special needs for that in WP
19:18:51 <duga> ... we also have reading order
19:19:14 <duga> ... To get something into WAM, have a publishing section of WAM, or have a special profile of WAM
19:19:46 <duga> ... either way, we are in a bad place, because we won't know if a browser that supports WAM supports our specific WAM
19:20:24 <rdeltour> q+
19:20:33 <duga> ... Browser understands WAM, grabs our data, then can't do anything with it
19:20:52 <duga> ... Better to have a Waybill specific to us, so we know the browser supports it
19:21:31 <garth> q?
19:21:44 <timCole> https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/#linking
19:21:49 <duga> Kenneth: You can specify it so we know what the WAM is [but I missed the details because bigbluehat was messing around]
19:22:44 <duga> timCole: One possibility, you can link differently
19:22:58 <garth> ack timCole
19:23:06 <duga> dwood: Relying on the browsers to implement whether it supports a specific route or not
19:23:11 <duga> timCole: Already has to do that
19:23:17 <garth> q?
19:23:51 <duga> dwood: If you have a content type that is unsupported, the default behavior will be different
19:24:03 <duga> ... browser will know if it supports a type or not
19:24:12 <duga> ... Different than the link following behavior
19:24:29 <duga> ivan_: Is there an expected behavior is a browser has a WAM link?
19:24:46 <duga> Kenneth: If you are adding to home screen then it is defined
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19:27:26 <bigbluehat> what Kenneth just described is what we attempted in the HTML First demo https://dauwhe.github.io/html-first/MobyDickNav/index.html
19:27:28 <duga> Kenneth: Likes the link, because browsers could do something different
19:27:33 <duga> ... like show a book icon
19:27:54 <ivan_> q?
19:28:01 <ivan_> q+
19:28:02 <bigbluehat> q+
19:28:07 <liisamk> q+
19:28:34 <duga> ... could have two links, one for the Book, the other for a web app to install a book reader
19:28:44 <dwood> My concern is that the default behaviour of a browser for a WAM might not be appropriate for a WebPub manifest (waybill). Thus, we need a mechanism to differentiate how a browser will react (including in the face of differentiated browser actions/bugs).
19:28:49 <garth> q?
19:28:53 <garth> ack tzviya
19:29:14 <duga> tzviya: Pubs have lots of metadata
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19:29:53 <garth> q?
19:30:03 <duga> ivan_: Want to make clear what the info is. Some overlaps with WAM, but we have a lot more
19:30:30 <duga> ... There should also be a property to say, fi you want more metadata or "here"
19:30:47 <duga> Kenneth: The only fear I have is if you extend it, it would need prefixes
19:30:51 <garth> q?
19:30:52 <duga> ... To avoid conflict
19:31:12 <duga> ... Also good to decide if our metadata makes sense in general for WAM to pull it back
19:31:18 <dwood> q?
19:31:43 <duga> ivan_: Say we use the link mechanism, the content of what we refer can be the same as what a WAM refers to?
19:31:49 <duga> ... content, structure, etc?
19:31:59 <dwood> q+ to suggest using WAM for generic metadata and default browser behaviour, and a separate WP waybill for publication-specific metadata.
19:32:04 <duga> Kenneth: With a WAM, most things are optional
19:32:16 <duga> ... you would just add some more stuff to it
19:32:40 <garth> q?
19:33:22 <duga> ivan_: Current WAM, data that is stored is one section, installation is separate section
19:33:29 <duga> ... can we split this into two specs?
19:33:38 <duga> ... Since we may not care about installation
19:33:39 <dwood> q- (Ivan covered it)
19:33:42 <dwood> q-
19:33:50 <dwood> (Ivan covered my question)
19:33:53 <garth> ack ivan_
19:34:10 <duga> Kenneth: You could also make a new spec
19:34:25 <duga> ... And say it is a WAM, then say what is different
19:34:36 <tzviya> q?
19:34:44 <duga> ... just point to the section you care about
19:34:50 <duga> ... splitting might be cinfusing
19:35:00 <garth> ack rdeltour
19:35:12 <rachel> s/cinfusing/confusing
19:35:15 <duga> rdeltour: We are talking about pubs, and browser behavior, and how it fits with what we want
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19:35:44 <duga> ... thinking about WAM, looking at what is progressive on top of WAM
19:35:54 <duga> ... has several pubs installed as WAMs
19:36:00 <duga> ... works great
19:36:16 <duga> ... now we need to install in another app
19:36:41 <duga> ... There are some details, like must install in a top level browsing context
19:36:44 <garth> q?
19:36:48 <tzviya> q+ to talk about next steps
19:36:59 <duga> ... but in general we are not in conflict and we need progressive enhancement
19:37:14 <duga> Kenneth: Browsing contexts are there for security reasons
19:37:22 <duga> .... but maybe could relax for pubs
19:37:30 <garth> ack bigbluehat
19:37:30 <duga> bigbluehat: Has a demo
19:38:04 <duga> ... shows relationship between WAM and Bill of Lading and the experience of what happens when you use them
19:40:01 <duga> ... Bill of Lading is additive to WAM, much larger in scope in various needs (like offlining and sandbox)
19:40:02 <garth> ack liisamk
19:40:09 <duga> liisamk: +1
19:40:20 <garth> ack tzviya
19:40:20 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about next steps
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19:40:32 <duga> tzviya: Next steps?
19:40:41 <duga> ... we have a way of working with WAM
19:40:52 <duga> ... but Marcos said "show us demos!"
19:40:52 <timCole> q+
19:41:08 <duga> bigbluehat: What we build is orthogonal to WAM
19:41:20 <duga> Kenneth: But we should coordinate
19:41:29 <duga> ... and we can decide to move some things to WAM
19:41:34 <garth> ack timCole
19:41:45 <ivan_> q+
19:41:48 <duga> timCole: Tend to agree but concerned the only commonality is there is a list of things
19:42:04 <duga> ... is that enough to make this reusable?
19:42:12 <garth> q?
19:42:25 <bigbluehat> q+
19:42:44 <duga> ... Are using most of WAM and adding? Or is it just the manifest we are using? Is it too much of a headache to use WAM?
19:42:58 <garth> ack timCole
19:42:59 <dwood> bigbluehat, In your conception, would each publisher define their own service worker?
19:43:16 <duga> ivan_: Still wondering about next steps
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19:43:32 <duga> ... We have kept away from putting into specific serialization
19:43:39 <bigbluehat> dwood: I'd hope there's a browser/reading-system one, but it could potentially be overridden by a publication-specific one (perhaps)
19:43:39 <takeshi> q+
19:43:47 <duga> ... wanted to clarify what information we really need for a WP
19:43:57 <dwood> bigbluehat That makes sense to me. Thanks.
19:44:32 <duga> ... what would be the next step? Define what have and put it into JSON, then prefix wpub, then look at WAM
19:44:43 <duga> ... if there is an existing term, then use WAM
19:45:02 <duga> ... And WAM WG looks at our list and decides to incorporate it
19:45:15 <duga> ... Then what we have, is it the same media type as WAM
19:45:16 <duga> ?
19:45:51 <garth> q?
19:45:57 <garth> ack ivan_
19:45:59 <duga> Kenneth: Depends. If you want both app vs pub installs then different media types, if you don't care then use the same
19:46:00 <garth> ack bigbluehat
19:46:21 <duga> bigbluehat: That is the distinction. WAM is additive, but our doc is mandatory
19:46:40 <duga> ... lifecycle needs to be done first
19:47:06 <dwood> +1 to Hadrian, a rel shouldn't be a different media types. That would be mixing approaches.
19:47:11 <duga> ... do I need to visit the about page 3 times before we get the WP reading experience
19:47:23 <dwood> s/Hadrian/Hadrien/
19:47:41 <duga> ... If it is something you don't care about then can reuse WAM type
19:48:17 <duga> Kenneth: Not everyone looks at web apps the same way. MS is crawling the web, looking for apps
19:48:34 <tzviya> q?
19:49:05 <duga> bigbluehat: If we need a different UI the first time you enter a WP on the web you get the WP experience, then we need something other than just WAM model
19:49:17 <duga> If not, then WAM is fine
19:49:45 <duga> ... Basically, is Bill of Lading required or optional?
19:50:21 <duga> Kenneth: Could be when you click on the book icon, you just get a new UI. Or it could be you download the book and add it to your library, etc
19:50:28 <duga> ... nice that it is up to the UA
19:51:12 <dwood> It is "nice" for it to be up to the UA only if the UA is well-behaved.
19:51:17 <duga> bigbluehat: Do you ever check to see if the WAM has changed?
19:51:30 <duga> Kenneth: Up to the UA, Chrome checks on occasion
19:51:42 <duga> ... but not defined
19:51:50 <ivan_> q?
19:52:24 <tzviya> ack tak
19:53:00 <duga> takeshi: Concerned about post processing
19:53:02 <garth> ack takeshi
19:53:16 <duga> ... when I install thousands of titles, how do I find a specific title?
19:53:59 <duga> ... For instance, how do we sort by name, etc?
19:54:09 <duga> leonardr_: Seems like it is up to UA
19:55:10 <duga> Kenneth: Seems like this is out of scope for the manifest
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19:55:49 <garth> q?
19:56:45 <duga> tzviya: Wrapping up - what now?
19:57:43 <duga> ivan_: Don't want to plan on JSON format for FPWD
19:57:54 <duga> ... but once we have a draft, how do we work together?
19:58:03 <duga> Kenneth: Github, meetings
19:58:27 <duga> ivan_: Love github, great for specific issues. But this is a bit higher level
19:58:48 <duga> Kenneth: We can have meetings. Not on regular basis, but when we need to
20:00:37 <ivan_> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:00:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/06-pwg-minutes.html ivan_
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21:17:17 <ivan> scribenick: lsullam
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21:17:44 <bigbluehat> scribenick: bigbluehat
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21:18:06 <bigbluehat> scribenick: rachel
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21:18:36 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#wp-lifecycle
21:18:36 <bigbluehat> scribenick: lsullam
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21:19:21 <Hadrien> no audio yet for remote attendees
21:19:22 <lsullam> mattg: differences between web application and how it is launched and instillation
21:19:35 <lsullam> ...good basis for moving forward
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21:19:56 <lsullam> bigbluehat: would like to see flow charts for web publication
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21:20:04 <tzviya> q?
21:20:18 <rachel> +1 bigbluehat - I was curious about the same thing
21:20:59 <lsullam> ...something that says this is the web publication on the web, the moment the user sees it, the moment the publication goes offline
21:21:00 <leonardr> q+
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21:21:12 <Daniel_Weck_> present+ Daniel Weck
21:21:49 <tzviya> q?
21:21:51 <lsullam> ...WAM is totally additive, we need to define when a collection of web pages becomes a publication
21:21:54 <tzviya> ack l
21:21:56 <rachel> q+
21:21:58 <laurentlemeur> remote access started again
21:22:03 <liisamk> q+
21:22:10 <lsullam> leonardr: I hear where you're going Ben and I don't disagree
21:22:26 <lsullam> ...I just want to make sure we don't jump too far into the user experience
21:22:40 <lsullam> ...what is the tipping point from regular web experience to pub experience
21:23:10 <lsullam> bigbluehat: for annotation we had to imagine user experiences
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21:23:28 <lsullam> ...some of the life cycle stuff has to need to know what the experience is
21:23:31 <tzviya> q?
21:23:55 <tzviya> ack ra
21:23:57 <lsullam> ...what are those moments and how do we enable those
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21:24:34 <lsullam> mattg: we launched into adapting the web app, pulled back too detailed, now we're looking at going forward without getting into the technical details
21:24:54 <lsullam> ...let's run through the use cases to get more details
21:25:07 <lsullam> rachel: I 100% support what you're saying
21:25:22 <tzviya> ack li
21:25:27 <lsullam> ...identifying the key points in the process helps know what the consumer/publisher want
21:25:43 <lsullam> liisamk: are we always thinking about it as predefined
21:25:55 <leonardr> q+
21:26:26 <lsullam> ...we could see where someone wants something defined by the publisher, but also when someone would want to define it themselves
21:27:23 <lsullam> leonardr: keep the packaging stuff separate, as long as everything lives in one location, all you're doing is building a manifest
21:27:44 <lsullam> ...you could bundle up anything in a manifest that exists on the web
21:27:54 <lsullam> tzviya: we need to define the life cycle events
21:28:20 <lsullam> ...ben made a good point that we haven't defined these moments yet
21:28:27 <lsullam> rachel: offers to project
21:29:01 <lsullam> leonardr: whether we think that every web publication should have those things defined...
21:29:23 <ivan> q?
21:29:37 <tzviya> ack q
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21:29:57 <leonardr> q-
21:30:03 <lsullam> tzviya: keep in mind we're going to have to describe the things that Rachel is projecting
21:30:32 <lsullam> ...we have a few events that we can define, so let's think about these life cycle events are
21:30:40 <lsullam> ...publish is an event
21:31:04 <tzviya> q?
21:31:04 <lsullam> bigbluehat: it doesn't really matter if you put it on the web if the user can't get it
21:31:28 <lsullam> ...offlining means that the user can keep it
21:31:42 <lsullam> tzviya: print publishing has dates, I don't want to get there
21:31:59 <lsullam> liisamk: you're put something out in the universe
21:32:10 <lsullam> leonardr: there is something before you publish and that is you author
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21:32:45 <lsullam> mattg: discovery how does the user agent even know how to find the publication
21:33:06 <lsullam> ivan: I can't care about the thing with authoring or publishing
21:33:22 <lsullam> ...I don't a care about the workflow that lead to the point of finding the publication
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21:33:38 <lsullam> bigbluehat: matt do you mean that you are discovering it's a publication
21:33:56 <lsullam> ivan: that's our starting point and what the browser does and what events lead to that situation are irrelivant
21:34:29 <lsullam> ivan: discovery is done what happens next with the browser
21:34:43 <lsullam> tzviya: I think we're trying to put ourselves in mind of the user agent
21:34:55 <lsullam> ...how do we make it a functional piece of the web
21:35:35 <tzviya> q?
21:35:50 <lsullam> leonardr: we should tell the user agent how define one of these things
21:36:01 <lsullam> bigbluehat: we can't tell the browsers of the past what to do with it
21:36:10 <lsullam> ...what are we adding to the browsers of the future
21:36:20 <lsullam> ...what does the browser do?
21:36:44 <lsullam> ivan: the question of whether it needs an active user to display as a book is not up to us to decide
21:37:08 <timCole> q+
21:37:10 <lsullam> ...it's up to the browser, as the user of the browser I can set a preference, but not up to us in the working group to define this
21:37:35 <lsullam> kenneth: WAM made an analysis document
21:37:56 <lsullam> ivan: the web app manifest doesn't impose on the browser to do this and this steps
21:38:12 <lsullam> ...the same holds here...
21:38:40 <lsullam> kenneth: browser may show ambient batching, microsoft, google, I think it is nice there is innovation
21:39:03 <lsullam> bigbluehat: we've discovered we have a publication...browser decides options...
21:39:35 <lsullam> timCole: discovery, be able to identify what you found, select, obtain
21:39:47 <lsullam> ...if your manifest supports all of those things
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21:40:07 <ivan> q?
21:40:14 <tzviya> ack tim
21:40:19 <lsullam> ...that is what the record is about...those 4 things...we can talk about after obtain
21:40:36 <lsullam> bigbluehat: that is a good start, there is more beyond that, there needs to be a reading order
21:40:54 <lsullam> timCole: enough information for those 4 things
21:41:18 <lsullam> bigbluehat: I'd prefer to decouple from the manifest
21:41:45 <lsullam> timCole: I'm talking about what the record has to do, the web page has to have enough information to know that's the 1984 I'm talking about
21:41:57 <lsullam> ivan: can we document what those actions are?
21:42:32 <leonardr> Discover, Identify, Select, Obtain
21:42:37 <timCole> Here's the publication: https://www.ifla.org/publications/functional-requirements-for-bibliographic-records
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21:43:03 <lsullam> bigbluehat: rachel can you take tim's 4 words and put to right of discover
21:43:27 <lsullam> ivan: so discover, identify, select, obtain, what do these things mean?
21:43:46 <lsullam> timCole: Select means there is enough in there to determine it's what I want
21:43:49 <lsullam> ...title is not enough
21:44:00 <lsullam> ...would also need publisher
21:44:27 <lsullam> bigbluehat: when you get it how much do you want
21:44:37 <tzviya> q?
21:44:46 <lsullam> dwood: you might not get the whole thing beyond the subset
21:44:56 <timCole> Chapter 6 is the relevant Chapter (User Tasks)
21:45:12 <lsullam> tzviya: can I interupt? we only have kenneth for part of the day
21:45:21 <lsullam> ...let's use Kenneth's time wisely
21:45:25 <lsullam> ...we need to come back to this
21:45:46 <lsullam> ...parallel road to WAM...let's go back to next best step
21:45:58 <lsullam> ...we can figure this out in a timely way
21:46:18 <lsullam> kenneth: it sounds good, WAP, do everything on github
21:46:32 <lsullam> ...we don't want to create a different working group for manifest
21:46:58 <lsullam> ivan: I still need to understand how the work we do connect to the subgroup
21:47:15 <lsullam> leonardr: until we know everything we need and the life cycle we can't go back to the web app
21:47:50 <lsullam> kenneth: give us a list of what you have, and we can see if it makes sense and if have what you need
21:48:10 <lsullam> ...we can have a more thorough review of what you need
21:48:36 <lsullam> bigbluehat: once we've determined what we want and where we want it, we can figure out where WAM fits in the life cycle
21:48:49 <lsullam> ivan: yes, but what do we end up with at the end
21:48:51 <garth> q?
21:49:03 <lsullam> ...do we have to different manifest that try to synchronize
21:49:15 <lsullam> kenneth: you have a specific manifest that refers to WAM
21:49:34 <lsullam> ...we have an example with web payments
21:49:41 <lsullam> ivan: that would be interesting to see
21:49:52 <lsullam> kenneth: payment method manifest
21:50:01 <lsullam> ...it's very very simple
21:50:02 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/payment-method-manifest/
21:50:12 <lsullam> ivan: what's your timeline?
21:50:22 <lsullam> kenneth: living timeline
21:50:46 <lsullam> ...google might have addititons...more work discussing android, ios
21:51:37 <lsullam> ivan: for us where it becomes a problem, when we have a normative dependency, by the time we can to our standard...
21:51:59 <dwood> q+ re versioning
21:52:00 <lsullam> ...there is a need to have a recommendation where there is a "version 1"
21:52:28 <lsullam> ...if you look at the planning there are recommendations very two years
21:52:45 <tzviya> ack dw
21:52:45 <Zakim> dwood, you wanted to discuss versioning
21:52:50 <lsullam> kenneth: I don't see any problem with that... live standard
21:53:35 <lsullam> dwood: how to manage the interaction...argument against putting in a publication sub to WAM
21:53:50 <lsullam> kenneth: we'll if it's an extension and you're extensions have a prefix I don't see a problem
21:54:05 <lsullam> leonardr: as long as the WAM doesn't have more ids...
21:54:35 <lsullam> kenneth: one user agent can say if there is no service worker we can't put in our microsoft store, but how to handle that and if that's a problem is invoation in the browser space
21:54:51 <tzviya> q?
21:54:55 <lsullam> ...we don't say anything is mandatory, it's more for the user agents
21:55:12 <lsullam> ...up to the user agent
21:55:19 <lsullam> tzviya: so how do we continue, next steps
21:56:17 <lsullam> ivan: come up with our view of manifests, clear manifest...these are our terms...once we have a clear idea we can synchronize
21:56:40 <lsullam> ...whenever is a term in the WAM we would use, we use that, clear naming scheme
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21:57:29 <lsullam> kenneth: I think it's still good to create an issue on the manifest...other people might see it and think it's interesting
21:58:13 <lsullam> tzviya: so this agenda item was only supposed to be a half hour...
21:58:34 <lsullam> bigbluehat: flow chart now, leonard returns and do packaging
21:58:48 <lsullam> ivan: what is dropped for the day?
21:59:13 <lsullam> ivan: flow chart is important let's matt start to write things
21:59:35 <lsullam> ...we have to talk about packaging...
22:00:00 <lsullam> tzviya: half of the pagination people are not here
22:02:14 <garth> q?
22:02:22 <ivan> scribenick: mateus
22:02:22 <mateus> scribenick: mateus
22:03:01 <mateus> rachel: authoring/writing are out of scope; publish is an open question; archiving falls under publish workflow
22:04:24 <timCole> q+
22:05:12 <mateus> bigbluehat: what comes after the four stages of discovery, identify, select, obtain?
22:05:34 <mateus> dwood: is keeping different from archiving?
22:05:43 <mateus> ivan: yes, but we're not looking at that now
22:05:45 <garth> q?
22:06:08 <garth> ack timCole
22:06:33 <mateus> ... what is the difference between identify and discovery?
22:07:16 <mateus> bigbluehat: your browser affords the user that you're within a publication; now the UA needs to identify what the publication is
22:07:36 <liisamk> q+
22:08:22 <mateus> timCole: so, in some context i discover that I am within a "web publication," then I identify the things that make it up, then I select certain items that are important to it (what are technical requirements, for example?)
22:08:37 <mateus> ivan: that's fine, but that's not identification
22:08:42 <mateus> timCole: right, that's selection
22:08:56 <garth> ack liisamk
22:08:59 <garth> q?
22:09:33 <mateus> liisamk: a practical example: looking at a website with an instruction manual that has several options (search, nav, etc.), but it's not done as a "publication"
22:09:53 <mateus> ... you're trying to find this manual and you somehow link deeply into a page within it
22:10:11 <mateus> ... "identifying" is finding that you're part of a bigger object
22:10:18 <dwood> q+
22:10:43 <mateus> ... "select" is trying to figure out whether that piece is a part of something larger and selecting your context and range of information
22:11:14 <garth> q?
22:11:27 <mateus> ... "obtain" is "how do I get this"?
22:11:34 <mateus> timCole: right, including any constraints that go with it
22:11:47 <garth> ack dwood
22:12:05 <mateus> dwood: so, you get linked off to some place inside a web pub, and then your UA knows that you have discovered the web pub. is that always true?
22:12:36 <mateus> lissamk: that goes back to how we define this "thing" so that the UA knows it is a web pub; the user doesn't care, they're just looking for information
22:12:52 <mateus> dwood: the linkage won't happen unless we make it happen
22:13:22 <mateus> liisamk: i can make the choice to have the full thing so I can reference it in the future
22:13:43 <mateus> bigbluehat: now that I have it, what can I do with it? that might be the next step after "obtain"
22:14:16 <mateus> ... is this making any sense (@ivan)?
22:14:41 <mateus> ivan: I'm not skeptical, just trying to connect our diagram with the record that we have (i.e., in the FPWD)
22:15:30 <mateus> ... "discover" is within a publication; "select" means I need to find out what pub I'm part of; "obtain" is "can I get the publication?"; still don't see the role of "identify"
22:16:13 <mateus> ... we have to be careful so each part of the workflow has the same "weight", that each has a specific role
22:16:37 <mateus> bigbluehat: identify, select, obtain are all in the "manifest" -- this is the identifier, this is the metadata, these are the components of the publication
22:17:15 <mateus> ivan: I understand what Rachel added -- "find my parent" under "identify" -- but then "select" becomes unclear to me
22:18:20 <mateus> bigbluehat: I think we have an understanding that each step is additive to the one before it, it becomes "larger"; we're giving us the steps needed to understand the publication
22:18:38 <mateus> timCole: the important thing is to recognize that there are certain steps that need to happen
22:18:58 <mateus> rachel: on the education level, i think of "select" as a way to choose a specific version of a single publication
22:19:21 <mateus> ... the element of "selection" is deciding where I'm going with that publication--what version I need
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22:19:41 <mateus> ivan: so it's the same publication with the same identifier, but different ways of reading it?
22:20:18 <mateus> bigbluehat: there's nothing in "identify" and "select" that we haven't already identified in the metadata conversations
22:21:12 <mateus> ivan: except that, it may happen that i get on a page, but in fact that page may belong to three or four different web pubs, so it's shared by several publications, meaning it can link out to several manifests; it become sup to the user to choose which one they want to use
22:21:37 <mateus> liisamk: yes, but we then need to be clear that individual asset within a package can/cannot have multiple parents
22:21:47 <mateus> ivan: this is not reflected in our current info items
22:22:14 <mateus> bigbluehat: even if not possible, "select" needs to give the UA/human enough info so that they can make an intelligent decision about it being something they want
22:22:36 <mateus> ivan: i want a better word
22:22:45 <mateus> lissamk: choose!
22:23:21 <mateus> bigbluehat: "obtaining" is the hard part, and beyond that is even harder--what does the UA do then? does it tell me how far along I am in a web pub? are there interface changes in my browser?
22:23:37 <mateus> dwood: (joking) we just make a pdf from it!
22:23:56 <mateus> ivan: this is true, but we shouldn't define it
22:24:05 <mateus> bigbluehat: right, but we need to acknowledge it
22:24:15 <mateus> ... this happened in the annotations wg also
22:24:40 <mateus> ivan: just to repeat, i haven't seen anything that would not be covered by the data we have in our document, which is a good thing
22:25:06 <garth> q?
22:25:28 <mateus> bigbluehat: once we get past "obtain", do we afford only a linear experience, "nonlinear", etc.? we need to prescribe something to the UA after it obtains the publication
22:26:17 <mateus> ... for example, a PDF affords a "reading" context; you have search, nav, forward-backward progression, etc.
22:26:29 <mateus> ivan: right, so the data is defined so that the browser can use it
22:26:41 <mateus> bigbluehat: yes, but what sort of thing do we want to be done with that data?
22:26:42 <dwood> q+
22:26:59 <mateus> ... what is it supposed to afford the user? think about audio books, a11y, etc.
22:27:14 <mateus> ... what does the user get from knowing there are 10 pages instead of just the 1 they discovered?
22:27:28 <mateus> ... need to define what we "hope" the UA will do
22:27:35 <mateus> ivan: i'm not sure
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22:28:14 <mateus> george: once you get from a chunk of info, you can't know what its parent is... too unpredictable, but a browser can find the manifest, and the UA can switch state into an intelligent browser that knows it is accessing a publication
22:29:28 <mateus> ivan: exactly, but the problem is we can spend days trying to come up with complicated ways of handling wpubs... i think what we have in the document is there for covering what we know at this moment, but we at some point need to become specific; for the time being it's an abstract set of info; i'm afraid of "that's useful, but we need to be more tangible"
22:29:39 <mateus> bigbluehat: offline becomes a question here too
22:30:00 <mateus> ... if offlining is a requirement, is it human-centric UAs, or more general?
22:30:18 <mateus> ... yes, we're all talking about a collection of documents and how it's obtained, but we don't know what those mean
22:30:37 <mateus> ... personally, i think in a more book-like manner
22:30:59 <mateus> ... but what happens when that web pub involves other resources than itself?
22:31:03 <garth> q?
22:31:28 <mateus> timCole: problem is, can we resolve any of those issues and how comprehensive does it need to be?
22:31:28 <garth> ack dwood
22:31:52 <mateus> dwood: the issues around linking to/from manifests are there for a reason; the term is "document transclusion" when you have resources used in more than one publication
22:32:14 <mateus> ... there are good reasons not to link from a single item to all the others that include it; it's fragile, metadata might conflicts, etc.
22:32:38 <mateus> ... unless we want to break the web, i suggest "issue 76" be closed as unresolved because we probably won't do that
22:32:59 <mateus> ... let's not spend valuable f2f time on that; would love to fix it, but it's theoretically unfixable
22:34:13 <mateus> bigbluehat: so, what if I have a copy of "1984" and the publisher redacts it? I want that history, but I want access to an original copy that I obtained. Are we saying all of these copies should be replicated with separate URLs?
22:34:42 <mateus> dwood: that's fine, but the individual document doesn't need to link to many different manifests
22:35:11 <mateus> garth: given that perspective, can you not mandate the "find my parent" part of "identify"?
22:35:19 <BillM> q+ George
22:35:24 <mateus> dwood: it's occasionally useful, but we can't do it
22:35:37 <garth> q?
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22:36:05 <mateus> bigbluehat: if we release many versions of a manifest, what does the publication then reference? is everything kept in sync, is the publisher required to always keep the publication manifestations updated in all their different versions?
22:36:10 <liisamk> q+
22:36:48 <mateus> dwood: in some context, publisher might choose to transclude and keep the data updated, but that's not going to be true in all cases; it should be allowed, but not mandated
22:37:33 <mateus> ivan: trying to translate in a practical way--in HTML file, e.g., "part 22 of the manual", i may link to the manifest that identifies the full publication, but that's where I stop--it's not mandated, but it's allowed
22:37:51 <mateus> dwood: not only should it be a "may", but there should be a caveat that it's dangerous if the versions aren't maintained
22:38:02 <mateus> duga: this is true any time you place a link in a document
22:38:04 <garth> q?
22:38:14 <garth> ack George
22:39:02 <dwood> q+ to reply to Brady on headers
22:39:17 <mateus> george: if this is in the metadata, in the manifest about this resource, and a discover tool can find all the related manifests, that can be done through search, but not listed in every related file
22:39:24 <mateus> ivan: we agree
22:39:29 <garth> ack liisamk
22:39:47 <dwood> q-
22:40:09 <mateus> lissamk: so, stepping back to what bigbluehat said--books get updated all the time, so when the book gets offlined, you get a snapshot of the book, just like buying a physical book
22:40:30 <mateus> ... oftentimes the same changes are made across many files (e.g., ad cards)
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22:41:17 <mateus> laurentlemeur: right, and what we're saying is that this is nice, but not a requirement
22:41:29 <mateus> ivan: so can we close the issue as unresolved?
22:41:35 <laudrain> q?
22:41:52 <mateus> bigbluehat: yes, but which resource SHOULD reference the manifest? all of them "may"? so what if none of them do?
22:42:36 <mateus> ... if a resource is found by itself, what is its manifest? what does it point to?
22:42:57 <mateus> garth: the children don't know its parent, but the parent knows all its children; that's where we are at
22:43:00 <mateus> ivan: right
22:43:13 <garth> q?
22:43:39 <mateus> bigbluehat: if we remove the findability of the "total thing", the only way we can really find the publication is via metadata and URLs within the document--that's weird
22:44:54 <mateus> tzviya: example, assembling journal articles in a journal, in print we use pages; in digital, we call them "e-locators"; people want a "boundedness" to a publication, a way to find the whole from a part
22:45:28 <mateus> ivan: well, we know a manifest MUST have a URL; the server returns what? we haven't completely decided, but the URL is there... i will get the manifest in one way or another
22:46:10 <mateus> ... once I get that, I can access the publication, search, whatever; the only problem we have now, is what happens when we encounter a smaller part, and where I go back to, what is its parent?
22:46:20 <mateus> ... that's what we are talking about
22:46:49 <mateus> tzviya: publishers often link to a ToC
22:47:02 <mateus> lissamk: but that's bad, it's clunky and ugly
22:47:24 <mateus> ... the body of the book must still somehow know it's part of a whole, a user would want to know it's in a specific book
22:48:09 <mateus> bigbluehat: in a web context, if you're on "page 25", that's all you would know. you lose the context of the publication as a whole
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22:48:39 <garth> q?
22:48:58 <dwood> q+ to note that just because links from child to parent are not required doesn't mean it isn't a good idea.
22:49:05 <mateus> ivan: that's what we're saying, we MAY place such metadata links, but we can't require it because it is an unreasonable burden on authors/publishers
22:49:13 <mateus> liisamk: that's fine
22:49:26 <garth> ack dwood
22:49:26 <Zakim> dwood, you wanted to note that just because links from child to parent are not required doesn't mean it isn't a good idea.
22:49:45 <mateus> dwood: we can't in general in a web context link from child to parent due to several technical concerns; it's better to make it a choice to maintain these links instead of mandating them
22:49:53 <mateus> ivan: so, ok to close with these comments?
22:50:30 <mateus> group: yes
22:50:51 <mateus> dwood: we achieved consensus--this is it!
22:51:06 <ivan> Proposal: close issue 76, with the comment that a link to the WP MAY be part of the resources, but WP does not require it
22:51:15 <dwood> +1
22:51:18 <mateus> +1
22:51:20 <laudrain> +1
22:51:24 <duga> -1
22:51:26 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/76
22:51:32 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/76
22:51:35 <bigbluehat> that doesn't solve 76 which is about multiple parents
22:52:16 <ivan> Proposal: close issue 76, with the comment that a link to the WP(s) MAY be part of the resources, but WP does not require it
22:53:03 <mateus> bigbluehat: we still need to consider multiples
22:53:11 <mateus> leonardr: the user chooses
22:53:26 <garth> Yes, the “(s)” makes this what we agreed, I think.
22:53:30 <mateus> tzviya: we're all confused
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22:54:09 <mateus> ivan: so can we agree on the current proposal with the "(s)" added?
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22:54:53 <mateus> bigbluehat: fine, but i think it introduces a messy problem: which one of the manifests is THE one that signifies the publication to the UA?
22:55:24 <mateus> george: there's a discovery state, the browser can choose among many manifests, but not necessarily moving into a "reading" state?
22:55:34 <ivan> RESOLVED: close issue 76, with the comment that a link to the WP(s) MAY be part of the resources, but WP does not require it
22:55:38 <mateus> bigbluehat: yes, but there is still that other issue, which we can open later
22:55:42 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
22:55:42 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2017/11/06-pwg-irc#T22-55-42
22:55:43 <mateus> all: applause
22:56:39 <mateus> duga: the issue is that, given that now there are multiple parents, how to pick the right one? this is a harder issue to solve
22:57:17 <mateus> bigbluehat: now that there's the opportunity to pick the publication, the browser can't enter the state by default, because a default/parent cannot be identified
22:57:42 <mateus> mattg: right, what are the expectations? this is the problem we've had since the beginning with multiples
22:58:12 <mateus> ivan: we may be in a situation where we may have no idea, upon encountering a resource, what publication it belongs to. we probably won't have a solution for this
22:58:35 <mateus> duga: yes, but that's not issue 76
22:58:50 <mateus> garth: you might just not be able to do it; that's all; we accept that
22:59:12 <mateus> mattg: it's not the end of the world, but this introduces a divergence
22:59:29 <mateus> duga: issue 76 is not about finding a parent, but about picking among multiples
22:59:41 <mateus> garth: yes, but we seem to be agreeing not to specify it
22:59:57 <mateus> ... that's the final resolution we seem to come upon
23:00:12 <mateus> bigbluehat: but i need to test this stuff!
23:00:31 <mateus> ... how do we do that?
23:00:41 <mateus> timCole: we don't need to test if it's just a "may"
23:00:54 <mateus> tzviya: let's each state our case
23:01:03 <mateus> bigbluehat: i just want to know how we will test it
23:01:12 <garth> q?
23:01:14 <mateus> ivan: i'm confused... we're trying to redefine the web
23:02:16 <mateus> dwood: if you read issue 76, allow resources to allow to multiple manifests? YES. solve the problem about linking to multiple pubs? NO.
23:02:31 <mateus> garth: yep, ivan is frantically typing the resolution now!
23:03:29 <mateus> ivan: comment added, the wp will not define how the choice among multiples
23:04:37 <mateus> garth: time for a 15 minute break since we argued through the scheduled break
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23:22:57 <ivan> Guests+ r12a
23:25:09 <ivan> scribenick: leonardr
23:25:14 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pwg
23:25:17 <ivan> Topic: I18N
23:25:50 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pwg
23:26:02 <leonardr> tzviya: a few folks from the I18n group have come to join us...
23:26:22 <leonardr> r12a: who's heard of us?  A few... And how many run away?  right
23:26:27 <ivan> Guests+ Addison_Phillips, Fuqiao
23:26:39 <leonardr> ...I'm going to do an intro and background about us and why you should care
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23:26:53 <leonardr> ...no slides, no structure - just ask!
23:27:05 <leonardr> ...(shows home page - www.w3c.org/international
23:27:14 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International
23:27:28 <mateus> mateus has joined #pwg
23:27:41 <leonardr> ...everything you need to know is there incl. info, how to participate, current activites, etc.
23:28:04 <leonardr> ...three major divisions - requirements, developer support & education/outreach
23:28:06 <xfq> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/projects/
23:28:54 <leonardr> ...requirements incl. things needed on various languages
23:29:45 <leonardr> ...dev support reviews documents for other groups.  there is even a review "radar" on where things are in process
23:29:59 <xfq> Review radar: https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/projects/1
23:30:28 <leonardr> ...making sure more groups start early (FPWD) rather than at last call.  (Note to selves: make sure we do this!)
23:31:08 <leonardr> ...also developing a self-review checklist (with github magic incl)
23:32:19 <leonardr> ...lots of informative documents, test suites and more for DevSupport
23:32:44 <leonardr> ...for education & outreach, explanations about how the web works so that authors can do the right thing
23:32:47 <dwood> dwood has joined #pwg
23:33:35 <leonardr> ...(walked us through some examples such as vertical text)
23:33:58 <leonardr> ...let's talk more about the requirements
23:34:03 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/wiki/Analysing-support-for-text-layout-on-the-Web
23:35:06 <leonardr> ...showing off the Japanese layout requirements (which are not necessary the same ones used in Word docs)
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23:35:43 <leonardr> ...emphasis, H&J etc. all included in the doc.   And working on the same thing for other scripts
23:35:56 <leonardr> ...use these, and don't think just about English/Roman
23:36:25 <leonardr> ...but - we've changed our emphasis recently
23:36:39 <xfq> https://w3c.github.io/typography/gap-analysis/language-matrix.html
23:36:56 <leonardr> ...working on an attempt to show off what is still missing on the web, for each language
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23:38:20 <leonardr> ...table shows language/scripts vs. various layout features that might be relevant
23:38:59 <leonardr> ...these features come from a document about international typography, https://w3c.github.io/typography/
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23:39:29 <leonardr> ...and with this document other specs (such as CSS) can refer to it to be the single source for explantation of various features
23:41:19 <leonardr> leonardr: could this document also be used as a referene for non-web publications (but still digital)?
23:41:53 <leonardr> r12a: this could be used for non-web scenarios as well by defining the definitions and requirements
23:42:14 <leonardr> george: does it also tractk text to speech?
23:42:21 <tzviya> q?
23:42:22 <leonardr> r12a no, it does not
23:43:02 <leonardr> r12a: there are links in the document to github issues on things that have not yet been solved
23:43:19 <leonardr> ...which hopefully people will pick up and help us define them
23:43:54 <leonardr> ...also links to spec issues, browser bugs and even type samples
23:44:43 <leonardr> ...and anyone can contribute samples
23:44:52 <leonardr> tzviya: can I just take photos and submit?
23:45:05 <leonardr> r12a: yes take pictures of those Hebrew books and upload them!
23:45:55 <leonardr> ...the document also describes a new way of approaching the lreq specs.  For J, we had a great set of experts who wanted to work on it
23:46:19 <leonardr> ...and for Arabic and Hebrew, they are excited to start with and then peter out a bit
23:46:47 <leonardr> ...so for J, we didn't have links to CSS/SVG but they are working on it
23:47:10 <leonardr> ...so we think that lreq isn't the right approach but instead ot find the gaps in a given standard (eg. CSS) and then documenting those
23:47:29 <leonardr> ...esp with specific tests
23:47:55 <leonardr> ...and once you have pointed out that it doesn't work, write the section of the lreq that talks about how it should work
23:48:09 <leonardr> ...and then working with spec and implementation folks to get it done!
23:48:48 <leonardr> ...This is a big message from the I18n committee about how you might want to consider going about your process as well
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23:50:08 <leonardr> ivan: one thing that can be useful for us would be to help fill out the typography table, for language that we speak, so that we can help see where problems are and where we might be able to help
23:50:29 <leonardr> ...I spent an afternoon working on Hungarian
23:50:41 <leonardr> garth: yes and now Hungarian is greener than English :)
23:51:16 <leonardr> ivan: please try to help contribute and it will help us in the long run
23:51:52 <tzviya> list from 2015 https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-css-priorities/
23:52:03 <leonardr> tzviya: back in 2015, the CG produced a document about requirements for CSS (aka missing things) incl H-rules, etc.  I bet some of that work would align well here.  Perhaps @dauwhe can take a look
23:52:13 <leonardr> r12a: any other questions?
23:52:55 <leonardr> duga: this is very helpful and we push back on the UA anyway.  one area which we could use guidance on is metadata. format selection, content etc.
23:53:17 <leonardr> ivan: metadata is important because content is the web, but we ned extra stuff
23:53:23 <leonardr> r12a: I would need some more info ut here you go...
23:53:36 <leonardr> ...1) don't require plain text for metadata (allow for markup)
23:53:47 <leonardr> ...2) don't stick it in attribute values, use elements
23:54:21 <leonardr> ...3) make sure that you allow for HA issues such as direction
23:54:32 <leonardr> duga: isn't that defined by markup?
23:54:50 <ivan> q+
23:54:50 <leonardr> r12a: it can be but not always
23:54:54 <leonardr> HA - Hebrew & Arabic
23:54:59 <leonardr> (ala CJK)
23:55:13 <leonardr> (I could use ME instead, if you'd rather)
23:55:23 <tzviya> s/HA/Hebrew and Arabic
23:55:59 <leonardr> r12a: you need additional language info for things like text to speech, semantic search, etc.
23:56:28 <leonardr> ivan: in web annots, we identified issues with JSON for doing such things and ask the I18n folks to solve this for JSON.
23:56:51 <leonardr> r12a: this is an open issue in our group and we are continuing to work on it
23:57:12 <leonardr> ...string-meta
23:57:13 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/
23:57:45 <garth> q?
23:58:08 <leonardr> timcole: if you have objects, you can add that information.  Is there a way to have a default?
23:58:34 <tzviya> ack iv
23:58:36 <leonardr> r12a: we don't know all the details here, but having a default (for each language!) is OK...but make sure you have a way to override.
23:58:51 <leonardr> ...in most JSON setups thats not possible, but yes it can be done
23:59:13 <leonardr> ...you need to specify the details of fallbacks...which is why we want an interchange model
23:59:22 <leonardr> ivan: yes!  we don't want to invent this, just use it!
23:59:48 <leonardr> r12a: we are still working on it as there are pros and cons and not agreement
00:00:08 <leonardr> bigbluehat: we refered to that spec from Annots
00:01:03 <leonardr> r12a: because you come from publishing community, you will find things that authors struggle with and therefore "hack around".  So knowing those things will help better understand requirements and commonalities
00:01:31 <leonardr> tzviya: sum up - PLEASE help!!
00:02:27 <leonardr> liisamk: where are we going with emojis as language?  (images, alt-text, etc)
00:02:45 <leonardr> r12a: Yes!!
00:02:56 <leonardr> ...chem symbols are an issue too
00:03:06 <leonardr> ...please let us know specific issues around emojis
00:03:25 <leonardr> ...I would like to avoid them, but it is getting harder to do
00:03:41 <leonardr> bigbluehat: if you can get poop in a spec, anything is possible :)
00:03:53 <garth> q?
00:04:18 <leonardr> <clap><clap>
00:05:31 <bigbluehat> 👏 👏
00:08:08 <ivan> scribenick: Cristina_
00:08:37 <Cristina_> packaging
00:09:04 <leonardr> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15oig71-ybZDt7G-C0CGmf7KG9k35y0ggu7sXLRadH2k/edit
00:12:04 <Cristina_> ivan: if I take an EPUB and unzip is a web publication who cares
00:13:15 <Hadrien> sorry Ivan, but this doesn't make a whole lot of sense
00:13:23 <Cristina_> Laurent: if you do not use zip as packaging what happens?
00:13:56 <Hadrien> +1 to what Leonard said
00:14:02 <Hadrien> that's my point
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00:14:53 <Cristina_> Leonard: we want to use a content that doesn't not have had an absolute url when they were packaged
00:14:59 <garth> q?
00:15:44 <Cristina_> ivan: any EPUB4 is something I can put on the web
00:15:53 <duga> q+
00:15:56 <Cristina_> Laurent: this is not the issue
00:16:57 <Cristina_> tzviya: do we need to support anything that is not on the web?
00:17:21 <garth> q?
00:17:28 <garth> ack duga
00:18:00 <leonardr> q+
00:18:03 <Cristina_> duga: is a packaged publication something that was based on Html only?
00:18:50 <tzviya> q+
00:19:11 <garth> q?
00:19:35 <Cristina_> duga: will browsers will be able to manage packaged files that are portion of the web?
00:19:41 <dwood> Paraphrased from duga - Does a PWP just use Web technologies or must it be on the Web? If the latter, then there is a lot to do, such as CORS/Fetch.
00:20:33 <bigbluehat> there's this packaging format the supports both, fwiw...it's called MIME
00:20:35 <duga> q+
00:20:39 <garth> ack leonardr
00:20:39 <Cristina_> Leonard: it depends on how we package, web agent may be indipent from the origin
00:20:48 <tzviya> q-
00:21:21 <Cristina_> ...packaging from the web or packaging the web, how do you package a data base or a stream?
00:22:54 <tzviya> ack du
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00:24:01 <liisamk> q+
00:24:31 <Cristina_> Ivan: which packaging technology is the best to be used and we need to unpackaged every format we recive
00:24:57 <bigbluehat> one (perhaps the only current) example of browsers consuming packaged, non-Web HTML/JS (etc) https://browserext.github.io/browserext/
00:25:37 <leonardr> q+
00:25:44 <Cristina_> .. is a set or requirements on how you put the content in the package, if a publisher create an EPUB4 and follow some guidelines it is fine
00:25:49 <timCole> q+
00:25:59 <tzviya> ack lii
00:26:47 <garth> q?
00:27:05 <tzviya> ack le
00:27:12 <garth> ack leonardr
00:27:15 <garth> ack timCole
00:27:16 <Cristina_> Liisa: goal of the group is to make EPUB publication advance as firs class web publications
00:27:46 <leonardr> q+
00:28:04 <Cristina_> timcole: depends from use cases
00:28:59 <Cristina_> Ivan: today I can create a web site that does not work on the web, you have to follow rules, if you create a publication you also have to follow some rules
00:29:19 <garth> q?
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00:30:31 <Cristina_> Leonard: we do want choices for different publication may have different packages depending on different use cases
00:30:45 <leonardr> q-
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00:33:29 <Cristina_> Liisa: what happens if something is changed in a publications
00:35:07 <Cristina_> Leonard: PDF as PWP Profile (slides)
00:37:03 <Cristina_> Leonard: how to move PDF in the future ecosystem: leverage the Open Web Platform - but no commonly accepted portable container
00:38:27 <Cristina_> ... PDF file Container: series of alternative presentation, a set of resources, using media queries for alternate presentation (for print/Screen/etc)
00:39:07 <Cristina_> ... differente features (CSS/presentation, etc)
00:41:00 <mattg> mattg has joined #pwg
00:41:50 <Cristina_> ... for every resource there is a relative url in pdf, regular resource in PDF or external one, PDF already have locations for all resources
00:41:55 <duga> q+
00:42:19 <garth> q+
00:42:21 <ivan> q+
00:42:21 <tzviya> ack du
00:42:25 <dwood> q+ to suggest some problems with PDF packaging
00:42:40 <Cristina_> ... this is not from Adobe but from PDF association
00:43:05 <garth> q?
00:43:38 <tzviya> ack ga
00:43:44 <Cristina_> ... the advantage is all their community already know PDF and user find something that already know
00:44:27 <Cristina_> Garth: alternative renditions did not had success in EPUB, what is the PDF container?
00:44:28 <duga> q+
00:44:30 <rdeltour_> q+
00:44:44 <garth> q?
00:44:59 <tzviya> ack iv
00:45:01 <Cristina_> Leonard: is not zip, it an serialization of a group of obkects
00:46:00 <Cristina_> Ivan: what you discuss is very similar to what we are discussing in PWP
00:47:08 <Cristina_> .. alternative media query is an interesting feature, I would be more happy if PWP if the packaging format can be technically used for PWP?
00:47:30 <Cristina_> Leonard: yes
00:47:36 <laurentlemeur> q+
00:47:36 <laudrain> q+
00:47:41 <liisamk> q+
00:47:42 <tzviya> ack dwood
00:47:44 <Zakim> dwood, you wanted to suggest some problems with PDF packaging
00:48:48 <Cristina_> David: I can understand why you propose this, from the Open Web Platform there are at least 3 issues
00:49:35 <tzviya> q?
00:49:39 <Cristina_> -- would we be happy with binary components and not international?
00:50:18 <garth> q?
00:50:24 <tzviya> ack duga
00:50:27 <dwood> PDF is 7-bit ASCII with binary components
00:50:27 <dwood> - What happens when a default PDF content is not provided because only HTML is created?
00:50:27 <dwood> - What would Richard Ishida say to a 7-bit ASCII wrapper?
00:50:27 <dwood> - Would we be happy with a core binary format instead of OWP?
00:50:34 <evan> evan has joined #pwg
00:50:35 <garth> ack duga
00:50:41 <Cristina_> Leonard: i do not think there is any problem if PDF is a PWP publication
00:50:44 <tzviya> ack rd
00:52:50 <Cristina_> Leonard: media query can be in your normal web content
00:53:22 <Cristina_> .. our viewer works an any EPUB readers
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00:53:46 <Cristina_> ...we assume the presentation is in the document
00:53:51 <tzviya> ack lau
00:53:58 <garth> ack laurentlemeur
00:54:41 <Cristina_> Laurent: if the working group define a packaging, what impede you to use it?
00:55:31 <Cristina_> Leonard: the backward incompatibility for old PDF content
00:56:59 <Cristina_> Luc: starting from PWD you can produce a classic PDF, do we need to use a pagination tool, that is something we do not need to do with EPUB.
00:57:16 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
00:57:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/06-pwg-minutes.html ivan
00:57:23 <garth> q?
00:57:26 <garth> ack liisamk
00:57:51 <Cristina_> ...paginated EPUB did not succeded
00:58:21 <Cristina_> Liisa: it is true but there is a request from publisher to have it
00:58:52 <garth> q?
00:59:35 <Cristina_> Tzviya; we must go back to zip and packaging
00:59:47 <leonardr> q+
01:00:12 <dwood> q+ ZIP vs. gzip
01:00:27 <Cristina_> Ivan: I heard that there are major security issues I'd like to know more
01:00:28 <dwood> q- ZIP vs. gzip
01:00:38 <dwood> q- to ask about ZIP vs. gzip
01:00:52 <Cristina_> Duga: there are on signing and multiple files
01:02:03 <Cristina_> bluehat: zip are hard to create well. zip have restricted metadata
01:02:34 <dwood> q+ to ask about ZIP vs. gzip
01:03:04 <Cristina_> Duga: you can handle with external medatada
01:03:53 <tzviya> ack le
01:04:04 <Cristina_> Laurent: we do not need a streamable content, we can expose it via a extention
01:04:57 <Cristina_> Leonard: non easily updatable, for other languages that are not English or latin there are issues
01:05:59 <Cristina_> ... in Japan there are issues, zip it is not standardized at international level,
01:06:00 <tzviya> ack dwood
01:06:00 <Zakim> dwood, you wanted to ask about ZIP vs. gzip
01:07:50 <Cristina_> David: zip in a web content, there is an other standard used to compress in the web izep
01:08:21 <dwood> s/izep/gzip
01:08:30 <Cristina_> thank you
01:08:34 <dwood> np
01:09:38 <dwood> Publishers don't typically use multi-part mime because it is "too much trouble" - it works well when people use it, though.
01:10:11 <dwood> s/Publishers/Broad tent publishers/
01:10:23 <Cristina_> Duga: you may have multiple copies or location of the same content
01:10:49 <dwood> Multi-part mime is widely used in email
01:11:18 <Cristina_> Leonard: if our goal is to package content from the web we need it
01:12:17 <Cristina_> Garth: odf it seems it doesn't have file restrictions
01:13:29 <garth> s/odf/ocf/
01:13:31 <Cristina_> .. ocf and not odf sorry
01:14:52 <leonardr> q+
01:15:20 <Cristina_> Ivan: what part of this discussion should go in the working group? we will need to make a choice, which packaging solution is the best or maybe we can invest in a new one.
01:15:27 <garth> q?
01:16:52 <leonardr> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2557
01:17:03 <leonardr> q-
01:18:15 <Karen> Karen has joined #pwg
01:18:35 <Cristina_> Laurent: cybor is a binar format, then we need to create a parser for the different platforms?
01:18:44 <tzviya> s/cybor/CBOR
01:19:03 <ivan> s/binar/binary/
01:19:29 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
01:19:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/06-pwg-minutes.html ivan
01:19:37 <Cristina_> http://cbor.io
01:20:34 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
01:20:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/06-pwg-minutes.html ivan
01:20:42 <ivan> zakim, bye
01:20:42 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been ivan_, mateus, Luc, Garth, Leonard, tzviya, dauwhe, charles_lapierre, BenSchroeter, duga, Chris_Maden, rkwright, rachel,
01:20:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg
01:20:45 <Zakim> ... Takeshi_Kanai, Laurent, george, mattg, rdeltour, ReinaldoFerraz, bigbluehat, Tim_Cole, Cristina, JunGamo, evan, marisa_demeglio, Avneesh, DaveBrowning, toshiaki-koike, dwood,
01:20:45 <Zakim> ... BillM, lsullam, Daniel, Weck, Hadrien, Daniel_Weck
01:20:51 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
01:20:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items