13:47:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
13:47:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/10/19-lvtf-irc
13:47:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:47:25 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:47:25 <trackbot> Date: 19 October 2017
13:49:25 <jimal> present=
13:49:55 <jimal> present+
14:31:30 <jimal> Agenda+ defending 4.5:1
14:31:32 <jimal> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/
14:31:45 <jimal> zakim. clear agenda
14:32:14 <jimal> agenda?
14:32:41 <jimal> zakim, close item 8
14:32:41 <Zakim> agendum 8, Schedule review of remaining Understanding docs: Zoom, Hover, closed
14:32:43 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:32:43 <Zakim> 9. defending 4.5:1 [from jimal]
14:32:50 <jimal> zakim, close item 9
14:32:50 <Zakim> agendum 9, defending 4.5:1, closed
14:32:51 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
14:33:03 <jimal> Agenda+ defending 4.5:1 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/
14:33:26 <jimal> zakim, close item 1
14:33:26 <Zakim> agendum 1, Understanding Graphics Contrast  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/81151/Understanding2/results#xq1, closed
14:33:28 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:33:28 <Zakim> 10. defending 4.5:1 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/ [from jimal]
14:33:36 <jimal> zakim, close item 2
14:33:36 <Zakim> agendum 2, 1.4.12 Push for 3:1 graphics contrast https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/251  Agenda+ 1.4.12 'essential' and exceptions  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/181
14:33:39 <Zakim> ... Agenda+ 1.4.12 Essential  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/150  Agenda+ 1.4.12 rewording https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/282  Agenda+ 1.4.11 questions about zoom
14:33:39 <Zakim> ... content (ready to close?)  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/250  Agenda+ icon font technique https://github.c[CUT], closed
14:33:39 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:33:39 <Zakim> 10. defending 4.5:1 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/ [from jimal]
14:33:45 <jimal> zakim, close item 3
14:33:45 <Zakim> agendum 3, define vicusal indicators, closed
14:33:46 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:33:46 <Zakim> 10. defending 4.5:1 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/ [from jimal]
14:33:50 <jimal> zakim, close item 4
14:33:50 <Zakim> agendum 4, 1.4.12 'essential' and exceptions, closed
14:33:51 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:33:51 <Zakim> 10. defending 4.5:1 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/ [from jimal]
14:33:54 <jimal> zakim, close item 5
14:33:54 <Zakim> agendum 5, 1.4.12 Push for 3:1 graphics contrast https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/251, closed
14:33:56 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:33:56 <Zakim> 10. defending 4.5:1 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/ [from jimal]
14:33:59 <jimal> zakim, close item 6
14:33:59 <Zakim> agendum 6, Agenda+ icon font technique https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/297, closed
14:34:01 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:34:01 <Zakim> 10. defending 4.5:1 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/ [from jimal]
14:34:04 <jimal> zakim, close item 7
14:34:04 <Zakim> agendum 7, 1.4.11 questions about zoom content (ready to close?)  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/250, closed
14:34:06 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:34:06 <Zakim> 10. defending 4.5:1 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/ [from jimal]
14:51:40 <scott> scott has joined #lvtf
14:55:49 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
15:00:33 <shawn> Present: Jim, Scott, Shawn
15:03:05 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #lvtf
15:03:50 <steverep> steverep has joined #lvtf
15:04:02 <shawn> Present+ SteveRep, JohnR, Laura, Glenda
15:04:14 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
15:04:22 <steverep> present+steverep
15:05:56 <JohnRochford> present+ JohnRochford
15:06:06 <JohnRochford> present+ Glenda
15:06:15 <shawn> present-JohnR
15:06:20 <jimal> zakim, open item 10
15:06:20 <Zakim> agendum 10. "defending 4.5:1 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/" taken up [from jimal]
15:06:21 <laura> present+ Laura
15:06:22 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:23 <Zakim> Present: Jim, Scott, Shawn, SteveRep, Laura, Glenda, JohnRochford
15:07:04 <laura> Results:
15:07:24 <laura> Survey Results: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/results#xnew3
15:07:37 <jimal> techniques - outline-offset
15:07:48 <JohnRochford> Jim: We have to discuss defending 4.5 to 1.
15:09:38 <jimal> push the outline-offset 3 px away from the object with focus, then you measure the contrast only between the outline and the background color
15:09:54 <JohnRochford> Jim: That should not be that difficult to do.
15:10:42 <JohnRochford> Jim: I wonder if the outline contrast was one of the two, could you really even see it?
15:11:20 <JohnRochford> Steve: This is just one technique, and there are so many others, for 3-way contrast.
15:11:45 <JohnRochford> Steve: If we are talking about the focus ring around something, you could change the color of the button on focus.
15:12:12 <JohnRochford> Steve: It gets confusing in the SC.
15:13:24 <JohnRochford> Steve: Yes, Jim, if you had a 3-pixel outline in a black color, it would be difficult to discriminate from a black button.
15:13:33 <jimal> dashes are easier to see than dotted
15:14:25 <JohnRochford> Jim: Dashes are easier to discern because there is more space between dashes (than there is between dots).
15:15:09 <JohnRochford> Jim: I don't want this to become a CSS thing where users are expected to do this themselves.
15:15:57 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Testing for 3 CSS pixels is not simple.
15:16:37 <JohnRochford> Glenda: I suggest we go forward with 3:1, but reserve the right to go with 4.5:1.
15:17:23 <JohnRochford> Glenda: The difficult with pixels is that they can't be measured on new monitors.
15:17:41 <JohnRochford> Glenda: We would have to come up with a measuring tool.
15:18:03 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Developers would have to measure all kinds of things with such a tool.
15:19:09 <JohnRochford> Steve: If it's something that could be done with CSS or another technology, I could see how 3 pixels would be easy.
15:19:55 <JohnRochford> Steve: Otherwise, it would be near-impossible to do with any accuracy.
15:20:21 <JohnRochford> Jim: I use a TPG tool, an eye dropper, for measurement.
15:21:00 <laura> Colour Contrast Analyser: https://developer.paciellogroup.com/resources/contrastanalyser/
15:21:27 <JohnRochford> Glenda: It already takes my employees too much time to test a page for WCAG 2.0. If we had to use an eye dropper too, the burden would be too much.
15:22:40 <JohnRochford> Glenda: One difference between 4.5:1 and 3:1 is that the color pallete is much larger in 4.5:1.
15:24:18 <JohnRochford> Glenda: When you are reading a page, and are glancing across words, the difference between an I and a T is very important. When you are looking through a focus indicator, you are not speed reading.
15:24:35 <JohnRochford> Glenda: There's a higher bar for color contrast.
15:26:03 <JohnRochford> Glenda: We get research between now and Silver that explores 4.5:1. My instinct says that the cost of implementing 4:5.1 is too great a burden for the effect it would have for people with disabilities.
15:26:54 <JohnRochford> Laura: If we pull back on this one, will we have to pull back on color contrast too?
15:27:14 <JohnRochford> Glenda: I think we would have to pull them back in unison.
15:27:23 <scott> scott has joined #lvtf
15:27:49 <scott>  We need good tools to test
15:27:57 <scott> manual testing won’t scale
15:28:30 <JohnRochford> Glenda: If it proves difficult to implement, we could discuss at the next call.
15:29:05 <JohnRochford> Scott: Any manual testing is not going to scale. Tools could be a solution, but they don't exist yet.
15:31:26 <JohnRochford> Jim, please let me know when I should resume scribing.
15:32:35 <shawn> s/Jim, please let me know when I should resume scribing.//
15:33:25 <JohnRochford> Scott: It's very difficult for me to see mouse pointers and focus indicators.
15:33:41 <jimal> scott - has difficulty finding focus indicators, if you make them move like marching ants,
15:34:30 <JohnRochford> Scott: The size/thickness of the focus indicators does help. Color can make a difference. Noticability from a distance is important.
15:35:01 <JohnRochford> Scott: If you are using a border with an animation, that would be more noticable than a thicker border.
15:35:28 <jimal> August Colenbrander - What is adequate under normal circumstances, may not be adequate under stress.  **Low vision is a form of permanent stress.**  
15:36:37 <JohnRochford> Scott: If there are black borders, they may appear as light-blue on LED montiors. That is difficult to see unless you get close to the monitor.
15:37:07 <JohnRochford> Scott: How do you test for that?
15:37:09 <steverep> q+ to say focus indication has many more aspects than "identification"
15:37:47 <jimal> ack steve
15:37:47 <Zakim> steverep, you wanted to say focus indication has many more aspects than "identification"
15:38:28 <jimal> steve - no proof of text being different from text
15:38:40 <JohnRochford> Steve: I don't buy that it's harder to read text in graphics until I see usability studies.
15:38:49 <Glenda> no proof of text being different that non-text (need for contrast)
15:39:09 <Glenda> q+
15:39:26 <JohnRochford> Steve: Identifying is different from focus indication.
15:39:56 <jimal> +1 to form controls are very different from focus indicator
15:40:17 <Glenda> Hey Jim, have we filed bugs against the browsers for poor color contrast (by default) on focus indicators?
15:40:39 <jimal> different tools available for changing focus indicators
15:40:53 <JohnRochford> Steve: Finding a focus indicator, and finding it again, is a significant issue.
15:41:12 <jimal> I believe so. I filed bugs about form controls. don't recall focus. will check
15:41:20 <Glenda> but but but…there is no requirement for a text box to have a “box” at all
15:42:15 <JohnRochford> Steve: I don't want to drop 3:1 for things like testing.
15:43:10 <jimal> s/for things like testing/for things like text being harder to read
15:43:11 <JohnRochford> Steve: Selection state is much more what I am worried about.
15:43:45 <JohnRochford> Glenda: I am uncomfortable throwing focus indication under the bus.
15:44:11 <JohnRochford> uncomfortable with
15:45:08 <JohnRochford> Scott: I'm trying to draw a distinction, not throw focus indication under the bus.
15:46:28 <JohnRochford> Glenda: I think that, for keyboard-only users, focus indication is very important.
15:47:18 <JohnRochford> Scott: It all gets back to what you are trying to identify: state, contrast, focus.
15:48:20 <JohnRochford> Glenda: If we are struggling with seeing it, and even knowing what to look for, people with cognitive disabilities would have even more trouble.
15:48:26 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
15:48:52 <JohnRochford> Glenda: The COGA TF is working on a related AAA SC.
15:49:29 <scott> I am not surprised
15:50:55 <jimal> User agent control: The color(s) of the user interface component and any adjacent color(s) are determined by the user agent and are not modified by the author.
15:51:52 <jimal> if the author never touches form controls or focus they are off the hook. only if they do a custom border on the form or focus do they have to make it right
15:51:52 <shawn> If you touch it, then you need to do it right. If you don't, then it's a browser issue and you're off the hook.
15:52:40 <shawn> (and that will be addressed through Silver)
15:53:24 <shawn> scribe: Shawn
15:53:59 <scott> you break it you buy it :)
15:54:12 <shawn> Jim: Have techniques for how to deal with focus. Have if you don't touch it, no foul. Issue is bear of testing.
15:54:39 <JohnRochford_> JohnRochford_ has joined #lvtf
15:54:57 <shawn> ... Put up to larger community and see how much pushback. Although seeming want to get it perfect now (despite enemy of good).
15:55:17 <shawn> ... Ducks in row for now. Take a break before the next call.
15:55:26 <scott> bye
15:55:26 <laura> bye.
15:55:35 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:55:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/19-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
15:56:05 <scott> scott has left #lvtf
15:58:51 <jimal> join #ag
16:05:29 <shawn> trackbot, end meeting
16:05:29 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:05:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Jim, Scott, Shawn, SteveRep, JohnR, Laura, Glenda, JohnRochford
16:05:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:05:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/19-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:05:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:05:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:06:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
16:06:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/10/19-lvtf-irc
16:06:05 <shawn> chair: Jim
16:06:24 <shawn> s/present=/
16:06:31 <shawn> s/zakim. clear agenda/
16:06:41 <shawn> s/Results:/
16:06:49 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:06:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/19-lvtf-minutes.html shawn