12:08:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #poe
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12:08:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:08:59 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
12:08:59 <trackbot> Date: 16 October 2017
12:09:11 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20171016
12:09:22 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Agenda 2017-10-16: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20171016
12:09:44 <ivan> Chair: Renato
12:10:45 <renato> renato has joined #poe
12:23:44 <renato> present+
12:26:51 <michaelS> michaelS has joined #poe
12:27:10 <michaelS> present+
12:29:15 <ivan> present+
12:30:22 <victor> victor has joined #poe
12:33:20 <victor> hi! much like Caroline, I am also connected from my phone tethering, with narrowband and prone to be disconnected. I decline to scribe.
12:34:16 <benws> benws has joined #poe
12:35:17 <michaelS> scribe: michaelS
12:35:25 <michaelS> scribenick: michaelS
12:35:48 <michaelS> topic: approval of last weeks minutes
12:35:49 <ivan> regrets+ Caroline
12:35:51 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2017/10/09-poe-minutes
12:35:51 <benws> present+
12:35:59 <victor> present+
12:36:14 <michaelS> renato: no objection, taken as agreed
12:36:17 <LindaB> LindaB has joined #poe
12:36:19 <ivan> present+ Linda
12:36:25 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/track/actions/48
12:36:30 <michaelS> topic: Actions arising
12:37:16 <michaelS> victor: a json-ld document has been created for each Turtle document
12:37:27 <michaelS> ... they are accessibly by the Valdation page
12:37:32 <victor> Example
12:37:32 <victor> http://odrlapi.appspot.com/samples/sample005.json
12:37:40 <michaelS> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Validation
12:38:21 <simonstey> simonstey has joined #poe
12:38:32 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/track/actions/49
12:38:47 <michaelS> michaelS: is the Turtle and json-ld numbering in sync
12:38:51 <michaelS> victor: will check
12:39:55 <benws> This test regime has two objectives:
12:39:55 <benws> 1. To ensure that each of the features listed in the Exit Criteria are properly supported by implementations.
12:39:55 <benws> 2. To ensure interoperability between implementations.
12:39:57 <benws> The validation tests help ensure that implementations agree on which policies are valid (and which are not) based on the normative part of the specification. The tests should generate a boolean output (valid/invalid) that matches the values provided in the tests.
12:39:59 <benws> The validation tests do not presuppose the use of SHACL Shapes to test for validity. But shapes covering the tests are provided for those who want to use them.
12:40:01 <benws> The evaluation tests also promote interoperability. Given that two implementations agree as to the state-of-the-world such that they agree on what duties and constraints have been fulfilled and satisfied, then they should agree on what permissions, prohibitions, and obligations an assignee can exercise or be bound by.
12:40:34 <michaelS> benws: has a short outline - and the changes of the Evalution page do note make sense to him any longer.
12:41:20 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/blob/gh-pages/test/test-regime.md
12:41:27 <michaelS> renato: could we agree on Action 49
12:43:58 <michaelS> Discussion about how to use the Implementation Reports
12:44:31 <michaelS> renato: a link to the input sheet should be added to the Test Regime page
12:45:26 <michaelS> benws: don't we presuppose to use SHACL shapes for validation
12:45:35 <michaelS> victor: agreed to that
12:46:32 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Evaluator
12:46:36 <michaelS> benws: raised issues regarding the updated Evaluator page
12:47:10 <michaelS> ... pointed at example 19
12:47:31 <renato> https://w3c.github.io/poe/model/#prohibition
12:48:17 <michaelS> ... the truth table does not tell if the Prohibition is infringed or not
12:48:21 <michaelS> ... example 20
12:49:05 <michaelS> q+
12:49:19 <michaelS> ... the evalutor does not know that
12:49:28 <simonstey> present+
12:51:06 <simonstey> knowing whether a rule is active or not depends on a blackbox evaluation of optionally attached constraints
12:51:32 <simonstey> the same holds for knowing whether a prohib. is infringed or not
12:52:03 <simonstey> an obligation to not do something is a prohib
12:52:25 <michaelS> michaelS: what should be the result of an evaluator: to check if the results aligns with the rules in the IM definition?
12:52:53 <michaelS> benws: e.g. an obligation not to take an action cannot be fulfilled
12:53:54 <simonstey> a consequence is only active if it was triggered
12:54:08 <simonstey> *might be active
12:55:54 <simonstey> how do you know if a remedy is active?
12:57:14 <michaelS> renato: the Rule column aligns with what we have in the IM
12:59:36 <michaelS> benws: the Information Model is the backgroud for the Evaluator
13:00:06 <victor> I can take a closer look to the Evaluator in the next 10 days
13:00:32 <michaelS> renato: asked benws the bad part of the truth tables are the Rule columns?
13:01:44 <michaelS> renato: active is a requirement for setting the state of a Rule
13:02:32 <michaelS> renato: the evaluator is something we as a group had never a common view on
13:03:12 <michaelS> ... it would be the best to integrate the Rule (state) in some way into the evaluator page
13:03:30 <michaelS> Topic: Test Regime
13:03:40 <michaelS> s/Test/Testing
13:04:13 <michaelS> https://w3c.github.io/poe/test/test-regime
13:05:09 <renato> https://w3c.github.io/poe/test/implementors
13:05:53 <michaelS> Agreed: to use the github.io URLs
13:07:22 <michaelS> LindaB: it should be defined soon how to evaluate ODRL
13:07:59 <michaelS> renato: hopes to find an agreement soon - LindaB should tell the group what is currently confusing
13:09:04 <victor> what do you mean more precisely by "Test Dummy"?
13:09:25 <victor> sample input data and output?
13:09:28 <victor> this would be great
13:09:37 <michaelS> renato: remove the testdummy from the implementation page
13:09:49 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/projects/2
13:09:56 <michaelS> michaelS: in the output page, in the input sheet it helps
13:10:02 <michaelS> renato: agreed.
13:10:21 <ivan> q+
13:10:28 <michaelS> q-
13:10:49 <michaelS> topic: Project issues
13:11:14 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/278
13:11:42 <michaelS> ivan:  the Github issue 278 is still open - how to proceed?
13:12:04 <michaelS> renato: considers it as Editorial - somebody disagrees?
13:12:20 <michaelS> ... nobody raised an objection
13:13:08 <michaelS> ivan: the other issues in the Backlog column are Editorial - and can be fixed later
13:13:33 <michaelS> ivan: changed #278 to Editorial
13:13:43 <ivan> q+
13:13:57 <michaelS> Topic: Any other business
13:14:30 <michaelS> ivan: the group has planned to publish some Notes - what are the plans for that?
13:15:01 <victor> I agree with Ben
13:15:20 <michaelS> benws: has plans for a Best Practice and will call in help from Victor and others
13:15:38 <ivan> q-
13:16:08 <michaelS> victor: for the Formal Semantics Notes he will check with Simon and Sabrina how to proceed
13:16:20 <michaelS> ivan: re IPTC Profile
13:17:44 <michaelS> michaelS: IPTC starts to work on the RightsML Profile, may be published in April 2018
13:19:11 <michaelS> Ivan: when will we have implementations for the implementaiton results
13:19:33 <michaelS> benws: we have implementations but no results for the Evaluator
13:20:16 <michaelS> renato: nothing else to discuss - the meeting is closed.
13:20:35 <michaelS> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
13:20:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/16-poe-minutes.html michaelS
13:20:55 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:20:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/16-poe-minutes.html ivan
13:20:55 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
13:20:55 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
13:20:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been renato, michaelS, ivan, benws, victor, Linda, simonstey
13:21:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:21:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/16-poe-minutes.html trackbot
13:21:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
13:21:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items