13:44:07 RRSAgent has joined #dxwg 13:44:07 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/09/25-dxwg-irc 13:44:30 rrsagent, make logs public 13:51:22 Caroline_ has joined #DXWG 13:51:40 trackbot, start meeting 13:51:43 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:51:46 Meeting: Dataset Exchange Working Group Teleconference 13:51:46 Date: 25 September 2017 13:52:16 chair: Karen 13:52:51 chair: Caroline 13:59:29 alejandra has joined #dxwg 13:59:52 dsr has left #dxwg 14:00:07 dsr has joined #dxwg 14:02:02 Present + 14:02:05 present+ 14:02:18 present+ 14:03:01 LarsG has joined #dxwg 14:03:09 present+ LarsG 14:03:25 present+ 14:04:10 annette_g has joined #dxwg 14:04:25 Scribe: alejandra 14:04:31 https://www.w3.org/2017/09/18-dxwg-minutes 14:04:46 Caroline_: can we approve last week's minutes? 14:04:54 +1 14:04:54 present+ annette_g 14:05:09 Caroline_: no comments, so we can approve them 14:05:21 Ixchel has joined #dxwg 14:05:24 present + Ixchel 14:05:39 RESOLVED Last week's minutes approved 14:05:48 Stijn_Goedertier_AIV has joined #dxwg 14:05:57 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2017.09.25 14:05:58 present+ Stijn_Goedertier_AIV 14:06:02 Caroline_: today we want to approve the requirements based on Jaro's email 14:06:04 DaveBrowning has joined #dxwg 14:06:08 Jaroslav_Pullmann has joined #dxwg 14:06:12 present+ 14:06:19 Daniele_B has joined #dxwg 14:06:22 q+ 14:06:34 AndreaPerego has joined #dxwg 14:06:34 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:06:35 Caroline_: it would be good to decide as a group how to proceed with voting/approving the requirements 14:06:42 a second 14:06:47 Present+ DaveBrowning 14:06:54 phila has joined #dxwg 14:07:21 Jaroslav_Pullmann: I looked at two options for numbering the requirements 14:07:32 ... so I would like to discuss about this and resolve it 14:07:33 present+ AndreaPerego 14:07:50 ... option 1: continuous indexing, but it prevents easy collaboration 14:08:02 present+ Daniele Bailo 14:08:04 q? 14:08:09 q+ 14:08:09 ... option 2: grouping of requirements and number the groups 14:08:17 ack kcoyle 14:08:23 ... this helps collaboration as different editors can work on different groups 14:08:48 kcoyle: this is somewhat complicated and I think it is best to discuss via email so that we can focus on the requirements today 14:09:20 Jaroslav_Pullmann: the action was on selecting a numbering scheme, so we did this and considered the options 14:09:38 Jaroslav_Pullmann: I'd like to spend a second to discuss about it 14:09:48 kcoyle: I don't think we are ready for this 14:09:55 kcoyle: we can consider the action completed 14:10:09 kcoyle: as there was so little discussion, we can ask people if they've looked at it 14:10:13 q+ 14:10:20 ack alejandra 14:10:31 alejandra: I think any of the options is okay 14:10:45 ... as long there are numbers 14:10:57 ... the other point would be making them more visible 14:11:10 ... group the requirements 14:11:20 ... we could even to investigate to do it with javascript 14:11:53 ... to have a list where we can see all the requirements together 14:12:19 ... it would be nice to have it at the end of the document 14:12:34 q+ 14:12:46 ack Caroline_ 14:13:02 https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#requirements 14:13:06 Caroline_: what alejandra mentions, we did in the DWBP 14:13:33 +1, a summary table like that is useful 14:13:43 q? 14:13:52 q+ 14:13:56 Jaroslav_Pullmann: 14:14:00 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:14:21 Jaroslav_Pullmann: do you refer to a graphical grouping, where requirements are clustered 14:14:33 Caroline_: I included the link to the specific section 14:15:13 q+ 14:15:15 ack Caroline_ 14:15:30 Caroline_: we need a review from the editors, not only from tagging 14:15:48 Caroline_: we need to have a review of the requirements 14:15:55 q+ 14:16:00 Jaroslav_Pullmann: what would we put in the left and right column? 14:16:12 Caroline_: grouping on the left and requirements on the right 14:16:45 ACTION: Jaroslav_Pullmann to create a tabular view on the requirements content 14:16:46 Created ACTION-42 - Create a tabular view on the requirements content [on Jaroslav Pullmann - due 2017-10-02]. 14:16:58 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 14:16:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/25-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego 14:16:58 q? 14:17:04 ack kcoyle 14:17:20 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:17:29 kcoyle: it may be preferable to simple create a document 14:17:47 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 14:17:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/25-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego 14:17:54 ... the UCR group can decide how to do this, but I think that the point here is that we need a very human readable document 14:18:04 ... whether or not can be automated or not, it is secondary 14:18:23 q? 14:18:27 ... we should aim at the most readable document possible, even it is not an automated process 14:18:30 q+ 14:18:36 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:18:38 annette_g has joined #dxwg 14:18:52 Jaroslav_Pullmann: yes, what is preventing readability at the moment 14:19:24 kcoyle: the DWBP is clearer 14:19:44 Caroline_: can we approve the requirements based on Jaroslav_Pullmann' message 14:19:46 Can we vote to approve the requirements as a group based on Jarosval email? https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dxwg-wg/2017Sep/0051.html 14:20:04 q+ 14:20:23 ack kcoyle 14:20:46 kcoyle: looking at last week's minute we had given Peter an action to rewrite the version definition requirement text 14:21:02 Caroline_: he's not on the call, he can ping him later 14:21:24 kcoyle: if we approve this, it will be pending to receiving that text 14:21:31 s/he can ping/we can ping/ 14:21:49 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/open 14:22:35 kcoyle: it is on the minutes but not in the actions list - will add it now 14:22:47 Q+ 14:22:54 ack annette_g 14:23:23 annette_g: about versioning identifiers, I was wondering to what extent we want to be prescriptive about that 14:23:35 ... it might be that we want to give some guidance about that 14:23:59 ... for people that are versioning already, it may become a barrier to use DCAT if it doesn't follow their versioning scheme 14:24:00 q+ 14:24:00 q+ 14:24:02 annette_g: +1 14:24:07 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:24:14 ... so I would suggest that we support multiple version schemes 14:24:30 Jaroslav_Pullmann: I'm referring to version identifiers 14:24:48 ... to have a dependable logic where someone wants to identify versions of particular resources, they can do so 14:25:06 ... this is not about the syntax of the identifiers 14:25:17 annette_g: I agree with the idea, the wording needs to be more precise 14:25:25 Jaroslav_Pullmann: it is not about the version or the value 14:25:41 annette_g: they are related, if someone is using semantic versioning, it is in the identifier 14:26:01 Jaroslav_Pullmann: we need to provide guidance on version identifier syntax 14:26:12 Jaroslav_Pullmann: three levels of versions, dates, etc 14:26:17 ... this would be a recommendation 14:26:25 ack kcoyle 14:26:27 ... but we don't prescribe what it goes in the identifier value 14:26:35 kcoyle: Antoine wrote this last time 14:26:44 ... I think the problem here is the word 'identifier' 14:26:53 ... we should limit the word to speaking about IRIs 14:27:05 ... here it isn't saying that you would have an IRI for a version 14:27:16 ... basically that there would be a clear statement of what the version is 14:27:25 ... and we shouldn't use identifiers for that 14:27:25 (OWL uses version info) 14:27:42 annette_g: are you saying that the identifier for each version should be an IRI? 14:27:49 kcoyle: that is not what we want 14:27:57 ... the word identifier is causing confusion 14:28:07 Jaroslav_Pullmann: the version is the resource 14:28:14 version designator? 14:28:17 ... it is a resource that has been given a new revision/version 14:28:38 kcoyle: if you are saying that each version of a dataset would have an identifier, then it is not under versioning 14:28:51 ... we already assume that each dataset will have an identifier 14:28:55 Jaroslav_Pullmann: I mean a version identifier 14:29:09 ... a markup 14:29:15 q+ 14:29:15 kcoyle: markup is not an identifier 14:29:22 ... markup is a description, not an identifier 14:29:35 kcoyle: we are assuming that every accesible dataset will have an IRI 14:30:08 q? 14:30:12 ack phila 14:30:17 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#VersionInformation OWL Version Information 14:30:19 HI Phil!! 14:30:32 phila: this discussion makes me look at OWL version info 14:30:41 ... there are various annotation properties 14:30:51 ... you can annotate an OWL ontology with different things about version 14:30:57 q? 14:30:59 ... and I think this might cover Jaroslav_Pullmann's point 14:31:12 Hi Phil :) 14:31:14 Jaroslav_Pullmann: what do you suggest for the wording? 14:31:28 phila: a human readable text 14:32:01 ... essentially it is mean for humans, you can data type it 14:32:13 ... this is orthogonal to the IRI of the dataset itself 14:32:23 kcoyle: we can call this version description 14:32:33 Jaroslav_Pullmann: yes, this is right 14:32:40 Q+ 14:32:44 ack annette_g 14:32:58 annette_g: for me description is text 14:33:13 ... so I would be cautious to use 'description' 14:33:19 q? 14:33:22 ... maybe 'version name' or 'version identifier' 14:33:39 Caroline_: we should have a group decision on what to use 14:33:50 why not simply version? 14:33:54 Just recalled that ADMS has a property for "version notes": https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-adms/#adms-versionnotes 14:34:04 Jaroslav_Pullmann: we don't require this to be a number 14:34:20 Q+ 14:34:26 Jaroslav_Pullmann: so 'version name' would be good 14:34:33 kcoyle: another term would be 'designation' 14:34:35 ack annette_g 14:34:43 q+ 14:34:59 https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataVersioning 14:35:00 annette_g: it might be good to try to be consistent across documents with DWBP 14:35:31 so, 'version indicator' 14:35:41 q- 14:35:43 Jaroslav_Pullmann: both 'version indicator' and 'version identifier' are used 14:35:44 +1 for indicator 14:35:53 +1 for indicator\ 14:35:56 +1 for indicator 14:36:28 +1 for indicator 14:36:37 If we use indicator, I would suggest we explicitly refer to the relevant DWBP BP, so readers have a clear definition of what we mean. 14:36:54 DaveBrowning: I think picking something for which people have preconceptions (like name or identifier) is not the best 14:37:04 ... so I think that 'indicator' or 'designator' are the best options 14:37:08 q? 14:37:18 Caroline_: so, we can vote on that 14:37:38 APPROVE: use 'version indicator' and refer to the DWBP BP 14:37:42 +1 14:37:43 +1 14:37:45 +1 14:37:45 +1 14:37:45 +1 14:37:46 +1 14:37:46 +1 14:37:48 +1 14:37:49 +1 14:37:51 +1 14:37:56 +1 14:38:00 +1 14:38:08 RESOLVED: use 'version indicator' and refer to the DWBP BP 14:38:10 s/APPROVE/PROPOSED 14:39:06 q? 14:39:12 Caroline_: any other comment about the group of requirements for versioning? 14:39:26 q+ 14:39:30 q+ 14:39:35 ack kcoyle 14:39:42 q+ 14:39:43 q+ 14:40:02 kcoyle: we have 'version delta' for a description or a text 14:40:08 ... describing what changed 14:40:31 ... are we thinking that there would be some basic suggested ones? 14:40:43 Q+ 14:40:46 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:40:56 q- 14:40:59 Jaroslav_Pullmann: I think we could give some recommendation on it, and provide examples 14:41:09 ... but I wouldn't prescribe the content of change management 14:41:17 ... maybe collect best practices 14:41:29 ack alejandra 14:42:07 alejandra: if it is just a text describing is one think, I would remove that 14:42:20 Jaroslav_Pullmann: we thought about actions 14:42:26 q+ 14:42:31 ... command-oriented formats 14:42:36 ... indicating what has been changed 14:42:36 Jaroslav_Pullmann: we have expressed on command actions 14:42:46 ack annette_g 14:42:48 s/Jaroslav_Pullmann: we have expressed on command actions/ 14:42:53 annette_g: I agree with Jaroslav_Pullmann, it should be flexible 14:42:53 ack kcoyle 14:43:01 ... we cannot be prescriptive about it 14:43:04 As I typed in earlier in the IRC, ADMS uses "version notes" for this purpose: https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-adms/#adms-versionnotes 14:43:27 kcoyle: there are some common languages coming out of database environments 14:43:32 ... with types of update files 14:43:47 Q+ 14:43:48 thanks Andrea, adms:versionNotes is apparently only a text 14:43:53 ... it would be good to gather some examples of this 14:43:55 Yep. 14:43:59 ... and include them in the document 14:44:01 ack annette_g 14:44:11 annette_g: do you mean the actual SQL syntax? 14:44:24 kcoyle: no, I have to dig them up 14:44:48 q? 14:44:59 q+ 14:45:08 ack alejandra 14:45:18 kcoyle has joined #dxwg 14:45:26 alejandra: the comment andrea sent As I typed in earlier in the IRC, ADMS uses "version notes" for this purpose: https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-adms/#adms-versionnotes 14:45:58 ... to mention semantics 14:46:13 A diff could be an example of a version delta. For example: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/commit/1567da7ea2d71745e94951e611631b11af190c22#diff-47605d4269ba7b112b6a0f92a3f10d15 14:46:13 ... if it is just a list of terms 14:46:28 alejandra: I think we should remove 'formal semantics' here 14:47:06 Stijn_Goedertier_AIV: I represent the Flemish Information Agency 14:47:06 fine, I'll do 14:47:29 Stijn_Goedertier_AIV: diffs allow you to see the changes and it could be an example of a version delta 14:47:37 ... this is more formal than release/version notes 14:47:44 ... and you would need a resource to describe it 14:47:51 ... rather than some text 14:47:58 For example: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/commit/1567da7ea2d71745e94951e611631b11af190c22#diff-47605d4269ba7b112b6a0f92a3f10d15 14:48:05 q+ 14:48:09 Stijn_Goedertier_AIV: I also have a more general comment 14:48:10 ack Stijn_Goedertier_AIV 14:48:16 ... related to the first requirement on versioning 14:48:22 ... the 'version subject' 14:48:36 ... how the requirement is phrased now, it is solution oriented 14:48:42 ... it is not phrased as a requirement 14:48:52 ... it would be more helpful for the DCAT editors what is the real requirement 14:48:57 ... what is the real subject 14:49:04 q+ 14:49:09 ... datasets or different formats, different language versions 14:49:26 ... how to represent it is something for the DCAT subgroup to figure out 14:49:29 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:49:47 Jaroslav_Pullmann: the subject is not only dataset, but also distributions or profiles 14:49:52 +q 14:50:24 ack alejandra 14:50:46 alejandra: we want to version not only the dataset and other resources as well 14:50:52 ... I agree with Stijn_Goedertier_AIV 14:51:13 ... we should be looking into the use cases to define what requirements we have 14:51:38 ... the requirement has to be specific. Ex. we need versions for... 14:51:47 q+ 14:51:52 Jaroslav_Pullmann: I think this is to the DCAT group to decide 14:52:07 +1 to Alejandra 14:52:10 alejandra: I think that should come from the use cases and the requirements should be specific by now 14:52:13 q+ 14:52:14 +1 to alejandra 14:52:27 ack Stijn_Goedertier_AIV 14:52:45 Stijn_Goedertier_AIV: it is up to us to specify the requirements 14:53:01 ... there are several dimensions of versioning 14:53:10 ... that we might put in this requirement 14:53:21 ... for example you can version the metadata 14:53:34 ... the requirement can be 'we want to version the metadata record' 14:53:40 q? 14:53:51 ... we shouldn't include the solution 14:53:55 Q+ 14:53:58 ... in the requirements 14:54:03 ack DaveBrowning 14:54:29 DaveBrowning: we can phrase requirements about the things that change without talking about changes in representation 14:54:39 ... and then it becomes a requirement in the distribution change 14:55:00 q+ 14:55:02 ... we can write the requirements in a way that don't directly refer to the solution 14:55:05 ack annette_g 14:55:13 ... even if that is what we've got on the back of our heads 14:55:29 annette_g: I'm not convinced that we need to consider versioning for the metadata itself 14:55:36 ... where does it stop? 14:55:41 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:55:46 ... we should stick to versioning datasets and distributions 14:55:54 Jaroslav_Pullmann: we should have a decision of this 14:56:23 +1 Annette (it was just an example of "version" dimension) 14:56:23 ... what are the target resources that will have changes and for which we want to indicate those changes 14:56:25 q? 14:57:00 q+ 14:57:16 ack alejandra 14:58:06 alejandra: I expect to find the versioning resources in the use cases we already have 14:58:23 ... we should look for these answers on the use cases we have 14:58:35 q+ 14:58:56 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 14:59:05 Jaroslav_Pullmann: looking at the use cases, you have datasets and distributions 14:59:20 PROPOSED: Go back to use cases to discover which resources need versioning, and create specific requirements 14:59:23 Q+ 14:59:57 ack annette_g 15:00:17 annette_g: I was going to say that a use case aims to limit what the actual requirements are 15:00:22 q+ 15:00:29 ack alejandra 15:00:56 +1 15:01:02 +1 15:01:04 +1 15:01:08 +1 15:01:09 +1 15:01:13 +1 15:01:15 +1 15:01:18 +1 15:01:23 +1 15:01:46 RESOLVED: Go back to use cases to discover which resources need versioning, and create specific requirements 15:01:59 ACTION: alejandra to go back to use cases to discover which resources need versioning, and create specific requirements 15:02:00 Created ACTION-44 - Go back to use cases to discover which resources need versioning, and create specific requirements [on Alejandra Gonzalez Beltran - due 2017-10-02]. 15:02:17 Bye all! 15:02:18 bye and thanks! 15:02:20 thanks, see you next week 15:02:21 thanks and bye bye! 15:02:27 Thanks, and bye! 15:02:30 present- 15:02:34 rrsagent, generate minutes v2 15:02:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/25-dxwg-minutes.html kcoyle 15:02:40 present+ phila 15:03:06 rrsagent, generate minutes v2 15:03:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/25-dxwg-minutes.html phila 15:03:27 agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2017.09.25 15:03:42 regrets+ Makx, Ruben, Antoine, Simon 15:03:47 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 15:03:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/25-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego 15:05:56 s/RESOLVED Last week's minutes approved/RESOLVED: Last week's minutes approved/ 15:05:57 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 15:05:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/25-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego 15:22:49 daniele_bailo has joined #dxwg 17:08:49 Zakim has left #dxwg