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13:46:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/09/06-pwg-a11y-irc
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13:46:56 <Avneesh> zakim, this will be pwg-a11y
13:46:56 <Zakim> ok, Avneesh
13:47:52 <Avneesh> zakim, this is webex 317 985 035
13:47:52 <Zakim> got it, Avneesh
13:48:06 <Avneesh> chair: Avneesh
13:57:34 <Avneesh> present+ Avneesh
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14:02:54 <Avneesh> present+ Debra
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14:03:51 <Avneesh> zakim, who is here?
14:03:51 <Zakim> Present: Avneesh, Debra, Rachel_, Bill_Kasdorf, rdeltour
14:03:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see Judy, Bill_Kasdorf, DanielWeck, clapierre, rdeltour, Rachel_, Zakim, RRSAgent, Avneesh, jasonjgw
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14:04:38 <clapierre> present+
14:04:44 <Judy> present+ Judy
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14:05:20 <clapierre> scribe: clapierre
14:05:39 <George> present+ George
14:05:39 <mattg> present+
14:05:59 <Avneesh> q?
14:06:06 <clapierre> avneesh: CSUN is coming up in March, and we may want to have a a11y presentation for DPUB @ W3C
14:06:19 <Avneesh> q?
14:06:36 <clapierre> George: Judy with WAI have been very public at CSUN in the past and so had DAISY.
14:06:49 <Avneesh> q?
14:07:02 <clapierre> …, landscape has changed now and what should be the combined approach now that the IDPF/w3c had joined
14:07:14 <clapierre> Judy: I haven't seen the call for papers yet
14:07:35 <Judy> http://www.csun.edu/cod/general-call-papers
14:07:36 <clapierre> …, It opens on Sept 14, and closes on Oct 3rd. calls for papers
14:07:55 <clapierre> …, they are trying to shift the focus of the conference but everyone may ignore that
14:08:09 <clapierre> …, DAISY has had their own track, we haven't done that with WAI
14:08:31 <Avneesh> q?
14:08:32 <clapierre> …, Web a11y related tracks, and we can try to have something more planned, and open for ideas
14:08:37 <Rachel_> q+
14:08:39 <Avneesh> q?
14:09:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:09:11 <Avneesh> ack rach
14:09:12 <clapierre> Rachel: to me it seems challenges from publishers is convincing DSS offices that they want EPUB not PDF.
14:09:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
14:09:35 <Avneesh> q?
14:09:36 <clapierre> …, so maybe we need to focus on why EPUB is valuable and a11y can meet their needs, and why they should be asking for it.
14:09:53 <clapierre> Avneesh: is publishers in the audience there?
14:09:53 <Avneesh> q?
14:10:10 <Avneesh> q?
14:10:11 <clapierre> Rachel: I see Universities mostly during my presentations.
14:10:55 <Avneesh> q?
14:11:17 <clapierre> George: I agree that the audience is higher ed, and barrier for epub dss offices don't know how to use it, if they need to modify something to enhance it which they are use to with chop/scan or with PDF and we have something new so they are rejecting it, so this is why they are not encouraging students to us it.
14:11:22 <Avneesh> q?
14:11:27 <clapierre> Avneesh: accessible epub right?
14:11:37 <Avneesh> q?
14:11:53 <clapierre> George: there are a lot of turnover with DSS offices.
14:12:45 <jasonjgw> present+
14:12:59 <DanielWeck> present+
14:13:00 <clapierre> …, not sure what approach to take.  Other issue, is we want to see customers of epub demanding accessible EPUB, but if DSS offices are not supporting it we have 2 barriers.
14:13:27 <clapierre> …, how EPUB and other publications are integrated with LMS and a11y of that content and interfaces
14:13:40 <Avneesh> q?
14:13:46 <clapierre> …, you still have the issues of getting the content into those systems.
14:14:05 <Avneesh> q?
14:14:12 <clapierre> Avneesh: this is for existing EPUB but what about the future of publishing with PWP / WP
14:14:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:15:56 <clapierre> Charles: may be too early to talk about PWP / WP at this point
14:15:58 <Avneesh> ack bill_k
14:16:37 <Avneesh> q?
14:16:47 <clapierre> Bill: I think the emphasis should be to do this now, lets not give them the excuse to wait for WP / PWP.  we should just use EPUB no # with it
14:17:11 <Avneesh> q?
14:17:21 <clapierre> …, This is the format that is the first class citizen of the web and is a11y and should be pushed as such.
14:17:33 <Rachel_> q+
14:17:35 <Avneesh> q?
14:17:36 <clapierre> …, we want you to be certified a11y
14:18:02 <Avneesh> ack rach
14:18:09 <clapierre> Rachel: giving them a simple understanding of what they should be looking for … something like a checklist
14:18:17 <clapierre> q+
14:18:31 <Avneesh> q?
14:19:01 <Avneesh> q?
14:19:12 <Avneesh> ack lap
14:19:24 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:19:34 <Avneesh> ack cl
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14:20:01 <clapierre> Charles: BISG is going to be making such a checklist
14:20:02 <dkaplan3> q+
14:20:04 <Avneesh> q?
14:20:37 <clapierre> Bill: if you are interested in this work, that you can contact Robin at Benetech that will be expanding the QuickStart guide and making this checklist.
14:20:41 <Avneesh> ack bil_k
14:20:56 <Avneesh> ack next
14:21:09 <George> q+
14:21:41 <Judy> q+
14:22:16 <clapierre> …, we will update that Quickstart to have split it in two, to have a quickstart checklist and an accompanying a11y guide.  the plan is to have this work done by November, but the full guide may be ready for CSUN but that is still yet to be determined.
14:23:00 <Avneesh> q?
14:23:14 <Avneesh> ack dk
14:23:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:24:15 <Rachel_> +1 Judy
14:24:19 <clapierre> Debora: about encouraging EPUB, 100% encouraging EPUB for a11y epub, PDF if we are lucky from a11y that teachers get these from licensed databases. When we talk about a11y EPUB as a prefered format, but we need to talk about this from academia.
14:24:26 <Avneesh> ack george
14:24:57 <Rachel_> s/+1 Judy/+1 dkaplan3
14:25:31 <clapierre> George: these DSS offices are in the trenches and they have to make it accessible to the students, and until MS Word supports EPUB natively unless there is a tool that integrates with MS Word, and Word is going to add even more a11y features.
14:25:40 <Avneesh> q?
14:25:52 <Avneesh> ack judie
14:26:00 <Rachel_> ack judy
14:26:07 <Avneesh> ack next
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14:26:46 <BenSchroeter> present+
14:26:55 <dkaplan3> True, there's a difference between the different ways documents are produced: what faculty produce, what DSS offices produce, what come from licensed databases, what students can read.
14:27:48 <dkaplan3> (Also, a nice selling point for epub over PDF to non-disabled end users is that epub reflows easily on mobile!)
14:27:52 <clapierre> Judy: Deborah raised is a good point, and EPUB now in W3C, and if you ask majority of team members, what format people should use, the default would be HTML and other things and some situations where EPUB would be the right thing to recommend and would love to have talking points to that fact.  Some value to have a CSUN presentation to have the field have that information.  Good to hear to have adv. discussion prior to call for papers,
14:27:52 <clapierre>  and I will be happy to help a coordinated approach to having a presentation.
14:28:03 <Avneesh> q?
14:29:20 <Avneesh> q?
14:29:58 <clapierre> Bill: Content documents are xhtml, and metadata for a11y, and to Deborah's point, DSS don't get EPUB, but they probably do know HTML and they probably do know but are unaware of the similarities and could possibly get the data in a format they know and get into a LMS system.
14:30:37 <Avneesh> q?
14:30:39 <clapierre> George: Benetech will also be there.
14:31:18 <clapierre> …, maybe we need to figure out an approach to make stuff for your students but getting acquisition of content you want great HTML and great EPUB.
14:31:38 <clapierre> Bill: they should have to make the epubs but only get the EPUBs.
14:31:52 <clapierre> Avneesh: we can continue this on emails.
14:31:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/should have to/should not have to
14:32:13 <clapierre> George: should we have this with a smaller group or larger group.
14:32:56 <clapierre> George: I will identify the core group and send out the invitation so not everyone will get the emails
14:33:33 <clapierre> Avneesh: 9/26 Bill McCoy if anyone from this TF to present there.
14:34:18 <clapierre> …, to build awareness some publisher in NorthAmerica non-educational (McGrawHill and Pearson) is already on the panel.  anyone interested?
14:35:01 <clapierre> Avneesh: Webinar: Book Business Webinar.
14:35:24 <dkaplan3> q+
14:35:33 <dkaplan3> q-
14:35:33 <clapierre> …, if anyone is interested send an email
14:35:51 <clapierre> to Bill McCoy
14:36:06 <clapierre> Topic: #1   Discussion & decision: Updated Navigation requirements.
14:36:06 <clapierre> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/wiki/Description-of-Accessibility-Requirements-for-WP
14:36:08 <rdeltour> q+
14:36:20 <clapierre> …, are we ready to take this to the main group?
14:37:19 <clapierre> Romain: there are a few things that could be improved: the Requirements are talking about a11y to readers or be machine readable.  Being machine Readable may make it a11y to user agents
14:37:53 <clapierre> …, accessible to readers and machine readable may be somewhat the same
14:38:43 <clapierre> George: when you say the phrasing like that, I agree could make things confusing, so we should tighten that up before bringing it to the main group.
14:39:17 <clapierre> Romain: Yes I am trying to be proactive in this.  We should not bikeshed on some of these issues are best to sort out with a smaller group.
14:40:10 <clapierre> …, next comment: about essential navigation says :The navigation to sections/headings in right hierarchical order is essential. The information about hierarchy of sections must be preserved in WP and must be machine readable and accessible to the readers.
14:40:29 <jasonjgw> q+
14:41:19 <clapierre> …, we have an understanding for a single HTML document but it is not even defined in Web document, but what is meant by hierarchy of sections.  req. is to define what that is for Web Publication.
14:41:45 <clapierre> Avneesh: the hierarchy must be accross all documents in the publication.
14:41:56 <clapierre> Romain: first step is to define this
14:42:51 <mattg> q+
14:44:41 <clapierre> Jason: distinction higher level and lower level navigation, that is defined in the file/resource boundaries within the publication, but define it in terms of a11y.  approach to treat each file/resource as its own document where the reading system provides navigation between these files toc/prev/next.  other option to load the entire publication into the DOM as a single page, and use the built in technology of the browser and it can na
14:44:41 <clapierre> vigate this way so there can be a TOC and Headings which could still be used to navigate within the entire document.
14:45:10 <George> q+
14:46:17 <clapierre> …, second comment: brief description what can be done with a publication can be qualified what can be done visually is only what can be seen at a particular time ie. zoomed in etc.  difference between those who can see the entire page vs. those who use enlargement and can only see a portion of the page.
14:46:36 <clapierre> Matt: the word "Preserve" this may be a content issue not TOC issue.
14:47:13 <clapierre> …, WP needs to express the hiearchy of the presentation
14:47:31 <rdeltour> q+
14:47:33 <clapierre> …, clarity perspective we want in the WP
14:47:46 <rdeltour> ack rd
14:47:48 <rdeltour> ack ja
14:47:50 <rdeltour> ack matt
14:47:52 <rdeltour> ack geo
14:47:54 <clapierre> Avneesh: expressing it to the user not requiring it.
14:47:55 <rdeltour> q+
14:48:42 <jasonjgw> q+
14:48:57 <clapierre> George: loading all documents into the DOM which would provide a natural process, but we want to achieve the same results but may be impractical to load them all together.
14:49:13 <rdeltour> ack jason
14:50:10 <clapierre> Jason: my concern was not to recommend this but the way in which the draft seems to discourage this implementation option, but would rather see that the document could be loaded all together, but didn't want to recommend one way or the other
14:51:21 <clapierre> Romain: not only to express the hiearchy to the user, concat of all pages, but how the UA treats the content, but as a group maybe we want to add to the browsers JS API to load other pages when you are on a page within a document being part of a larger group.
14:51:50 <clapierre> Avneesh: we don't want to get into specifics at this point.  so this is why we are at the User Req. at this point.
14:52:57 <clapierre> George: I think this concept of an entire view of the publication is not just an a11y issue, but is needed for everyone but is essential for a11y.
14:53:11 <clapierre> Avneesh: send an email Romain for any additional feedback.
14:53:17 <clapierre> Romain: ok
14:53:49 <clapierre> Avneesh: document Daniel / Marrisa wrote was there any feedback.
14:54:15 <clapierre> Daniel: no feedback, an nothing yet from Marrisa.
14:54:53 <clapierre> Avneesh: I will ask Marrisa if there is any feedback and then will talk to Tzviya to see what is the next step.
14:55:18 <clapierre> George: Call for CSUN Papers will be out next week.
14:55:53 <clapierre> Avneesh: next call will be in 2 weeks.
14:56:15 <clapierre> …, any issues just send an email.
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14:57:08 <clapierre> rrsagent, make logs public
14:57:14 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:57:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/06-pwg-a11y-minutes.html clapierre
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