Date: 2017-08-29
See also the Agenda and the IRC Log
Present: Karen Myers, Tzviya Siegman, Avneesh Singh, Dave Cramer, Ivan Herman, Junichi Yoshii, George Kerscher, Liisa McCloy-Kelley, Murata Makoto, Ric Wright, Luc Audrain, Virginie Clayssen, Dan Sanicola, Junko Kamata, Michaela Philipzen, Takeshi Kanai, Paul Belfanti, Brian O'Leary, Cristina Mussinelli, Leslie Hulse, Rachel Comerford
Regrets: Rick Johnson, Bill Kasdorf, Rachel Comerford, Robby Robson, Jens Klingelhöfer, Wolfgang Schindler, Jason Colman, Bill McCoy
Guests:
Chair: Paul Belfanti
Scribe(s): Dave Cramer
Ric Wright: North america fire map: http://disasterresponse.maps.arcgis.com/apps/PublicInformation/index.html?appid=4ae7c683b9574856a3d3b7f75162b3f4
Murata Makoto: I am going to wear the hat of the convenor of the Japanese mirror for SC34 in this meeting.
Murata Makoto: If needed, I will wear the hat of the liaison from SC34 to W3C.
Luc Audrain: +1
Paul Belfanti: first agenda item: welcome to new members
Virginie Clayssen: I work at Editis publishing group, the 2nd largest publisher in France
Virginie Clayssen: and president of EDRLab
Luc Audrain: welcome Virginie
Paul Belfanti: anyone else?
Paul Belfanti: next agenda item: status of publishing summit at TPAC
Tzviya Siegman: BillM can’t make it
Paul Belfanti: Tzviya, can you give an update?
Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/publishing/events/summit2017
Tzviya Siegman: there was an announcement sent last week, with agenda as it stands
… I think BillM is still looking for sponsors
… we do have a good agenda
Paul Belfanti: one of the main messages is to sign up, and to promote it through your professional and social channels
… we have good early registrations, but we need more
… I think it will be very successful
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: one logistical thing
… if you sign up for the summit, you’re signing up for Thursday
… but what about the whole week?
Tzviya Siegman: if you’re there for M-W, that’s TPAC. If you want lunch on Friday, sign up for TPAC on Friday. If you’re attending the summit, it does not include lunch on Friday
Paul Belfanti: or if you’re comfortable foraging for lunch on your own on Friday
Paul Belfanti: Makoto and Cristina are with us
Murata Makoto: in ISO there is an ongoing ballot for creating a set of tech specs for 3.0.1.
… we did 3.0 a long time ago
… we are considering some ISO specifications for EPUB accessibility
… this was an IDPF document; the next version cannot become w3c recommendations
… so we wonder how we can have ISO endorsement
… I believe Europe has no problem about creating ISO specification on a11y
Luc Audrain: that’s correct. Europe has strong relation with ISO
… in the Euro body for standardization (CEN) they are used to build european standards with ISO
Murata Makoto: great
Cristina Mussinelli: we spoke with european commission
Cristina Mussinelli: we understood if Euro commission needs to define a standard, then they will give a mandate to Euro standard body
… then standards body will look for existing standards
… we think there is no issue if we start with ISO process, and there is no conflict
… and we also need to work with our national organizations–France, Italy, etc.
Paul Belfanti: so there’s no issue in referencing the IDPF a11y standard?
Cristina Mussinelli: yes, it’s fine
Paul Belfanti: does that address your concerns, Makoto?
Murata Makoto: no issues about that
… I have a different issue
… I wrote a lengthy email to george and avneeesh, it’s in the wiki page
Avneesh Singh: https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/wiki/ISO-Standardization-Discussion
George Kerscher: https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/wiki/ISO-Standardization-Discussion
Murata Makoto: when I was requested by professor ??? to create international standards
… he’s a member of UN committee on rights of people with disabilities
… he knows that the Japanese gov’t doesn’t consider ISO tech specs as de jure standards
… other countries will probably think that technical specifications are immature
… Japan is in SC34 mirror
… we would like to create international standard for 3.0.1 rather than technical specification
… so Japan will vote against tech spec for 3.0.1, and will request international standards instead
Murata Makoto: Korea is willing to submit 3.0.1 as draft international standard fast track
… I’m hoping that this committee supports international standards rather than technical specifications, because the latter may be ignored
Murata Makoto: when epub 3 was created, html5 was still working draft
… now most imporant references in epub 3.0.1 are mature
… we would also like to create EPUB a11y as international standard rather than technical spec
… we believe it is possible to make it freely available
… for example, associating schemas with XML documents–it’s freely available
… this is what I am proposing
… creating international standards for 3.0.1 and epub a11y
Ivan Herman: there are 2 issues
… one I raise without knowing the situation
… the a11y document is now under w3c copyright
… I"m not sure what this means
… I would expect that w3c would go along with that only if there’s an absolute assurance that ISO would make it freely available
Murata Makoto: No problems about that.
Ivan Herman: we would need advance assurance
… if there’s no problem with that then I’m happy
… my other problem is very different
… I’m concerned about creating an ISO standard for 3.0.1, as this will be an enormous setback to 3.1
… I don’t understand why 3.1 is forgotten
… for me at least it seems to be the wrong message to the world
… that means we abandon 3.1
Murata Makoto: I want to explain
… theres a big diff between ISO and w3c on versions
… in w3c you can have multiple live versions
… in ISO the old version is superceded
… if we create an ISO 3.1, using same standard number, then all earlier versions are superceded
… this means EPUBs with version string 3.0 will not conform to any ISO standard
… that’s fatal for users
… who have tons of EPUBs with the version string 3.0
… if we want to make 3.1 alive, is to create both specifications using different numbers in ISO
… for example, tech standard for 3.1, and international standard 3.0.1
… since no one in Japan is using 3.1, I’m against an ISO standard
Ivan Herman: I understand; I could hack this by taking 3.1 doc and we declare it for ISO purposes 3.0.2
Ivan Herman: this could help with relevance
Murata Makoto: I don’t understand
Ivan Herman: you say if ISO produces a 3.1, then all 3.0 docs become non-standard
Murata Makoto: We have TS 30135
Murata Makoto: which is for 3.0
Ivan Herman: if you do that with 3.0.1 it’s the same thing
Murata Makoto: If TS 10135 for 3.0.1 is created, the current version will be superseded.
Murata Makoto: If we create TS 44444 for 3.1
Ivan Herman: what you say does not change my statement if this happens, if ISO goes out with 3.0.1 as new international standard, then we can kiss 3.1 goodbye
Murata Makoto: if we use version number 30135, then a newer version of that number will supercede all other versions
… but if we use 44444 for 3.1, then it will not supercede earlier versions
Ivan Herman: do you propose to have both versions going through the ISO process?
Murata Makoto: we could have a different proposal
… on top of what I said, we submit another fast-tracked draft tech standard for 3.1 using a different number, such as 44444
Ivan Herman: but you also said tech specs don’t matter
Murata Makoto: I don’t think creating an ISO standard for 3.1 is good because it isn’t used
Graham Bell: I was going to make the same point as Ivan, but to go further
… if there was a dual strategy for 3.0.1 and 3.1, what would be the point of the 3.0.1 version?
Murata Makoto: 3.0.1 is widely used.
Murata Makoto: Will not disappear for 50 yearsr
Graham Bell: we’d be further down the road. We’d be chasing the past
Murata Makoto: EPUB 3.0.1 will not disappear for 3.1
… people will not update old versions
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: *for how many years?
Murata Makoto: so ISO status of 3.0.1 is important
Murata Makoto: 50 years
Tzviya Siegman: I had a conversation with Makoto about this
… the issue is, in order for the japanese gov’t to recognize EPUBs as conforming to a standard, there needs to be an ISO standard
… even if we assume 3.0.1 goes out the door, people will not repubish their existing books
… a Q back to you–what about EPUB 2? We never sent that to ISO
Murata Makoto: in japan EPUB2 is not used, period.
Tzviya Siegman: isn’t that a nice world? :)
Murata Makoto: 3.0.1 is widely used, even if it doesn’t have ISO standard it’s not a problem
… EPUB a11y is different; it needs an international standard so it won’t be ignored, and for that to happen 3.0.1 itself must be an international standard
Paul Belfanti: this is a particular interpretation by the japanese gov’t to recognize something as a standard?
Murata Makoto: since prof. ??? is a member of a UN committee, he’s thinking about other governments
Avneesh Singh: in the wiki page, george has listed three options
… we should see which is feasible
Paul Belfanti: I do see those in the wiki
Luc Audrain: https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/wiki/ISO-Standardization-Discussion
George Kerscher: in the SC call, Rick, Luc, and I were charged with putting together the options
… the 3 options listed is our first attempt
… there are probably more options
… starting at the bottom, option 3, moving epub a11iy 1.0 forward as tech spec is the easiest thing to do
… but those tech specs don’t carry as much weight. Might work for europe but not japan
… option 2 looks at EPUB 3.1 and EPUB A11Y moving forward in ISO
… option 1 was moving EPUB 3.0.1 and EPUB A11y moving forward in ISO
… there’s new info from Makoto about possibly moving 3.0.1 and 3.1 as ISO standards
… we could put together more options
Murata Makoto: We cannot do so.
Murata Makoto: ISO does not allow ISs to normatively reference TSs
Luc Audrain: Why?
George Kerscher: why not simply moving EPUB a11y forward as ISO spec independent of which, since it can apply to 2, 2.0.1, 3, 3.0.1, and 3.1?
Paul Belfanti: just to clarify
Murata Makoto: This is the way it is.
Paul Belfanti: the same a11y spec would apply to all past and existing versions?
George Kerscher: it was designed like that
Murata Makoto: Impossible
Murata Makoto: Impossible
Paul Belfanti: what you’re proposing is that we advance EPUB a11y as international standard without a tie-in to specific versions
Luc Audrain: we need the a11y spec not to be tied to an epub version
… we’ve tried not to have the mandate around any particular version of epub
… we hope that euro a11iy act be enforced in different countries only on a11y standards, and not on specific epub versions
… we hope that any EPUB a11y spec could be broad
Murata Makoto: Impossible
Luc Audrain: we hope it is independent of the version of epub
Ivan Herman: I would loke to hear makoto’s argument; he says it’s impossible
Murata Makoto: there is a rule about creating standards, about what is allowed as normative references
… as part of international standards, normative references are required to be international standards
… some orgs, such as w3c, and some documents, like RECs, are allowed
… so a normative reference to HTML5 is allowed
… but a normative reference is not allowed to technical standards
Ivan Herman: I’m bothered that we’re having two parallel discussions, epub and a11y
… I’m still against standardization of 3.0.1, but in favor of standardizing EPUB a11y
… I haven’t looked at the latest version of the a11y doc
… but what I hear from George and Luc is taht it does not normatively depend on epub at all
… it depends on the general notion of ebooks
Murata Makoto: accessibilityFeature
Ivan Herman: if that is true, then it can become an international standard by itself
Avneesh Singh: EPUB accessibility 1.0 do not depend on specific version of EPUB, but it depends on EPUB
Ivan Herman: then this can go on, and things are indepedent
Murata Makoto: I strongly believe that epub a11y references some mechanism of epub in general, such as metadata
… so we must normatively referene epub 3.X
Ivan Herman: we will have to check
Luc Audrain: accessibilityFeature is schema.org
George Kerscher: The accessibility spec references schema.org metadata
Ivan Herman: or maybe we can adapt epub a11y to avoid normative references
Graham Bell: (and of course schema.org is not an international standard…)
Cristina Mussinelli: I just wanted to add to what Luc said
… the idea in Europe is to have something more general, like WCAG
… they don’t want to have a specific format standard; they want generic guidelines. It may be different for other countries.
Murata Makoto: Some para from EPUB Accessibility: To indicate that an EPUB Publication conforms to the accessibility requirements of this specification, it must include a conformsTo property [DCTERMS] and an a11y:certifiedBy property [Accessibility Vocab].
Avneesh Singh: epub a11y 1.0 has dependency on EPUB, but not specific to any version, there is schema.org metadata and epub metadata, and there are references to media overlays
… we cannot say it is independent of EPUB
… we could make 1.1 more independent
Tzviya Siegman: is the goal of this group is to send 1.0 doc to ISO, or the technicques document?
Murata Makoto: Japanese publishers are against the idea of creating EPUB 3.1 as ISO documents if 3.0.1 is superseded at ISO.
Murata Makoto: I think EPUB a11y techniques are evolving document, so I’m only considering epub a11y 1.0 or 1.1, but not techniques
Avneesh Singh: there is some dependencies in techniques and in the spec, but in 1.1 we can improve
Paul Belfanti: we don’t have a resolution
… for next steps, the group that developed the options, engaging further with Makoto
… to continue to pursue options
Murata Makoto: Sure.
Paul Belfanti: do we agree?
George Kerscher: yes
Paul Belfanti: is there any new business?
Dave Cramer: (silence)
Paul Belfanti: OK, then the last item is a reminder to register for TPAC and the publishing summit, and to promote both events across your organizations and networks
Paul Belfanti: we can close the meeting. thanks everyone, and welcome to the new members.