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15:26:04 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:26:04 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:26:04 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
15:26:04 <ivan> Date: 2017-08-28
15:26:04 <ivan> Regrets+ Vlad, laudrain, mteixeira
15:26:04 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2017Aug/0181.html
15:26:05 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2017-08-28: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2017Aug/0181.html
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15:51:17 <ivan> present+
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15:58:58 <ivan> present+ bdugas
15:59:19 <Rachel> I'll scribe
15:59:20 <mattg> present+
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15:59:24 <ivan> present+ lsullam
15:59:25 <leonardr> present+ Leonard
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15:59:48 <Rachel> scribenick: Rachel
15:59:55 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
16:00:16 <lsullam> hi this is Lillian and it's my first meeting
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16:00:44 <BenSchroeter> present+
16:00:53 <rdeltour> present+
16:00:53 <rkwright> present +
16:01:14 <pkra> present+ pkra
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16:02:08 <leonardr> mazel tov to @rdeltour
16:02:18 <rkwright> Where is the traditional photo?
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16:02:37 <timCole> present+ Tim_Cole
16:02:39 <rdeltour> .me both the kid and the mother are sleeping rn :-)
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16:02:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:02:50 <rkwright> Good plan
16:02:56 <Rachel> Topic: Welcome new members
16:03:03 <HeatherF> present+ Heather_Flanagan
16:03:22 <Rachel> lsullam: Penguin Random House working on the ebooks team
16:04:04 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2017/2017-08-21-minutes
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16:04:10 <ivan> Topic: Minutes of last week
16:04:12 <George> George has joined #pwg
16:04:22 <ivan> resolved: meeting minutes approved
16:04:27 <George> present+ George
16:04:27 <Rachel> Tzviya: Minutes approved
16:04:32 <marisademeglio> present+
16:04:48 <Rachel> ... we're going to review a bunch of pull requests and look at open issues
16:04:49 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/pulls
16:04:55 <Rachel> ... there is one open pull request
16:04:59 <ivan> Topic: Open issues
16:05:48 <Rachel> Tzviya: There has been substantial time to discuss this request
16:06:04 <Rachel> ...there are no open pull requests at this time
16:06:14 <Rachel> ...if you would like to edit please open a pull request
16:06:22 <Rachel> ...first open working draft by TPAC
16:06:49 <Rachel> Tzviya: We have a list of open issues to discuss today
16:06:59 <ivan> regrets+ garth
16:07:12 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/4
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16:07:23 <harriett> present+
16:07:25 <Rachel> ...issue 4: who's responsible for publication users interface
16:07:29 <Hadrien> present+
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16:07:35 <leonardr> q+
16:07:35 <Rachel> ...I would recommend closing this issue now
16:07:35 <dkaplan3> +1
16:07:45 <Rachel> ack leo
16:07:56 <clapierre> present+
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16:08:18 <Rachel> Leondardr: this is a concise issue that affords discussion; if wepull this into affordances then it will be lost
16:08:22 <dauwhe> q+
16:08:43 <bigbluehat> we do still need an answer for #4...
16:08:51 <Rachel> Tzviya: this has been open for a while but not commented on - no one has picked it up but we will need to discuss it with affordances
16:08:53 <bigbluehat> q+
16:08:55 <tzviya> ack da
16:09:10 <Rachel> ... there's room for comment in how it aligns to affordances
16:09:36 <tzviya> ack bi
16:09:54 <Rachel> dauwhe: this is large and complex, we need to keep that in mind when addressing. I'm siding with keeping it open or closing it.
16:10:17 <ivan> q+
16:11:14 <tzviya> ack iv
16:11:20 <Rachel> bigbluehat: I would leave number 4 open for reasons I will outline in IRC because Rachel lost the thread.  We need to talk about scoping
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16:11:41 <bigbluehat> q+
16:11:48 <laurentlemeur> present+ laurent
16:12:03 <Rachel> Ivan: the reason I brought this up is true for other issues - we tend to go into hugely complex semantic arguments.
16:12:12 <Rachel> ...we try to resolve many issues under one
16:12:13 <tzviya> ack bi
16:12:57 <leonardr> q+
16:13:02 <Rachel> bigbluehat: I would be happy to close issue 4 and narrow the scope against the affordances issue. This will inform the spec that delivers the affordances and let it come back up with other issues
16:13:15 <tzviya> ack l
16:13:31 <Rachel> Tzviya: the goal of closing is not to ignore - it's to update the document and narrow the focus to resolvable issues
16:14:14 <Rachel> leonardr: we all agree this is not resolved and needs more discussion for closing - why not leave it open til we are at a place to address it for actually close it
16:14:17 <bigbluehat> q+
16:14:35 <Rachel> ivan: but there are loads of comments that stray from the original issue
16:14:41 <tzviya> ack big
16:14:55 <Rachel> leondardr: I'm asking about process - do we close this broad topic and open lots of little ones
16:15:29 <Rachel> bigbluehat: there are a lot of important topics in this.  "responsible" is unclear from who is rendering to what is rendering
16:15:46 <Rachel> ... visual vs auditory, not contextualized, etc
16:15:54 <Rachel> ...I would love to narrow it down
16:16:33 <Rachel> Tzviya: I propose bigbluehat and dauwhe open sub issues and close this
16:16:40 <Rachel> ... larger issue
16:17:12 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/11
16:17:34 <Rachel> ivan: we have to control the long term and get in the habit of closing issues that are resolved. The goal is to close issues as soon as possible - when it's in the doc with minimum concensus
16:17:43 <Rachel> Tzviya: Issue 11
16:17:48 <rdeltour> q+
16:18:05 <Rachel> ... TimCole is this all addressed at this point - we settled on URL as identifier
16:18:17 <tzviya> ack rd
16:19:13 <Rachel> Ivan: I prefer to put a comment in the list that this issue is closed, when, and what minutes to review
16:19:26 <Rachel> ...Tzviya is noting to do that
16:19:53 <Rachel> Tzviya: Issue 12
16:19:58 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/12
16:20:07 <Rachel> ... I'm not sure where we're headed on this one
16:20:34 <ivan> for the records, agreement to close 11, 12
16:20:35 <Rachel> mattg: it kind of ties into affordances
16:20:41 <Rachel> ... it can be closed off
16:21:11 <Rachel> Tzviya: Issue 14
16:21:25 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/14
16:21:35 <Rachel> ... proposal for accomplishing pagination in navigation
16:21:43 <Rachel> dauwhe: not really pagination
16:21:59 <Rachel> Ivan: Next and previous in browser is ignored
16:22:23 <bigbluehat> also...since this is a new spec, browsers might learn some new tricks, right? :)
16:22:39 <Rachel> dauwhe: I want something that acknowledge  when you are in a primary resource what is the next primary resource.
16:23:09 <Rachel> Tzviya: can we close this issue because it's a nonstarter
16:23:41 <Rachel> dauwhe: if the consensus is that this is irrelevant we can close
16:23:52 <Rachel> Tzviya: issue closed
16:24:00 <Rachel> ... Issue 15
16:24:11 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/15
16:24:20 <laurentlemeur> +1 to close 15
16:24:23 <Rachel> ... closing this issue - all in agreement
16:24:28 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/18
16:24:29 <ivan> close 14, 15
16:24:30 <Rachel> ...Issue 18
16:25:02 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/44
16:25:20 <Rachel> ...another issue about identifiers - the opinion that Ivan expressed is this is superseded by 44
16:25:25 <timCole> q+
16:25:31 <tzviya> ack ti
16:25:34 <Rachel> Ivan: this one is less precise that issue 44
16:25:53 <Rachel> timcole: Ivan has characterized correctly - there didn't seem much support
16:26:15 <Rachel> ...I can add more information to 44 - we need to discuss alternative ways of doing this
16:26:18 <ivan> for the records close issue 18
16:26:27 <Rachel> Tzviya: we can add this to the agenda
16:26:37 <Rachel> ... Issue 24
16:26:47 <Rachel> ...requirements of a titles
16:26:47 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/24
16:26:57 <Rachel> ...this has been resolved by the current version
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16:27:02 <Rachel> ...agreed - closing 24
16:27:03 <ivan> for the records: close 24
16:27:14 <Rachel> ... Issue 30 and 20
16:27:31 <Rachel> ...duplicate one another.  These are both resolved.
16:27:41 <tzviya> q?
16:27:51 <Rachel> For the records: closing 30 and 20
16:28:03 <Rachel> ...Issue 35
16:28:37 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/35
16:28:50 <Rachel> Tzviya: to an extent this has been incorporated as a fallback in the current proposal due to expanded use of tags in HTML and other preferred uses of serialization
16:29:11 <Rachel> ... recommendation to close this for now and come back to it in the future if we need to
16:29:21 <Rachel> ...dauwhe? bigbluehat?
16:29:46 <Rachel> dauwhe: requesting more time for review and clarification
16:29:55 <bigbluehat> +1 to more time...
16:30:02 <Rachel> Tzviya: issue 36
16:30:11 <dauwhe> q?
16:30:23 <Rachel> ...overlaps with issue 26, can we close one?
16:30:52 <Rachel> Ivan: actually, both of them (36 and 26) have been taken over by the most recent document
16:31:09 <Rachel> ... in that sense we can close both and the document may result in new issues being raised
16:31:17 <Rachel> ...closing 26 and 36
16:31:25 <jeffp> My people
16:31:28 <Rachel> ... Issue 42
16:31:45 <Rachel> Ivan: this should be kept open
16:31:54 <Rachel> ...it's not clear what we're saying re: language
16:32:12 <Rachel> mattg: I will add most recent discussion
16:32:29 <Rachel> Tzviya: When closing an issue - point to the pull request in closing comment
16:33:25 <Rachel> ...should one be closed (29) in favor of 42?
16:33:41 <ivan> Topic: manifest serialization
16:33:47 <Rachel> Tzviya: JSON or Not
16:34:32 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/7#issuecomment-323436810
16:35:48 <clapierre> scribe: clapierre
16:36:07 <Rachel_> Rachel_ has joined #pwg
16:36:23 <tzviya> q?
16:36:28 <ivan> q+
16:36:30 <clapierre> Tzviya: welcome everyones' feedback.
16:36:31 <tzviya> ack iv
16:36:37 <dauwhe> q+
16:36:43 <clapierre> Ivan: 1 point of clarification…
16:36:48 <clapierre> scribe: Rachel_
16:37:20 <tzviya> ack d
16:37:21 <Rachel_> Ivan: This is makingit clear once and for all that we are using JSON for manifest
16:37:35 <ivan> s/makingit/making it/
16:37:56 <baldurbjarnason> q+
16:38:11 <Rachel_> dauwhe: I have commented out many things in html or xhtml file for troubleshooting, content to temporarily remove, explanatory notes
16:38:14 <ivan> q+
16:38:26 <Rachel_> ...JSON is a format with comments and so we use a certain flexibility
16:38:35 <tzviya> ack bal
16:38:37 <dauwhe> s/with/without/
16:39:07 <Rachel_> baldurbjarnason: I want to note that one issue with html is that it is as complicated as xhtml in terms of cognitive load, teaching etc
16:39:20 <dauwhe> q+
16:39:38 <Rachel_> ...as a response to dauwhe, part of the the reason we need comments is the complexity
16:39:50 <tzviya> ack iv
16:40:05 <Rachel_> ...JSON is not more complicated than html but in this case it is better than html
16:40:22 <Rachel_> ivan: commenting something out in JSON is something I want to do all the time and that problem is real
16:40:52 <Rachel_> ...the problem is this boat has sailed - it's a standard now
16:41:32 <Rachel_> ...it the language that we use in this community and if we want our results to be accepted, it is what we must use.
16:41:46 <tzviya> ack da
16:41:56 <bigbluehat> q+ to ask who the manifest is for
16:42:28 <Rachel_> dauwhe: this is not proposed html as an alternative but if we go on a JSON like path, YAML (sp?) allows for commenting
16:42:29 <George> q+
16:42:43 <tzviya> ack big
16:42:43 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to ask who the manifest is for
16:43:07 <Rachel_> bigbluehat: 2 pieces - I'm not sure who we're providing a manifest for
16:43:41 <Rachel_> ... browsers don't use JSON
16:44:01 <baldurbjarnason> YAML is a pretty extensive object serialisation format whose extensive capabilities have caused security problems in the past and doesn’t work particularly well in a browser context. And inventing our own format is super risky
16:44:13 <tzviya> ack ge
16:45:07 <bigbluehat> (restating for scribe)
16:45:19 <Rachel_> george: in a publishers workflow, xml would maintain content and then moves it off to JSON without comments but then the original element would maintain the publishers intended content
16:45:37 <laurentlemeur> q+
16:45:38 <bigbluehat> who are we providing the manifest for? JSON is great for developers who will use it to make HTML-based UX for an in-browser reading system
16:45:44 <tzviya> ack lau
16:45:54 <bigbluehat> related to Web App Manifest, browser do not use JSON, "installers" do
16:46:12 <bigbluehat> Web App Manifest is used to create icons on a desktops and other launchers to load a browser
16:46:31 <Rachel_> laurentlemeur: the production workflow won't change  - they will continue to produce multiple formats
16:46:31 <bigbluehat> it does not "manifest" anything. it does not state resources. it references some icons and a start URL.
16:46:43 <bigbluehat> the Web App lives separately
16:47:05 <ivan> proposed: we should go for JSON
16:47:07 <dkaplan3> +1
16:47:08 <laurentlemeur> +1 for JSON
16:47:08 <clapierre> +1 JSON
16:47:09 <ivan> +1
16:47:09 <Hadrien> +1
16:47:10 <baldurbjarnason> +1
16:47:10 <timCole> 0
16:47:12 <pkra> +1
16:47:15 <rkwright> +1
16:47:15 <rdeltour> +1
16:47:15 <leonardr> +1
16:47:17 <jun_gamo> +1
16:47:23 <bigbluehat> -0
16:47:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> 0
16:47:37 <mattg> +1
16:47:47 <Rachel_> +1
16:47:49 <marisademeglio> +1
16:47:53 <Ben_> 0
16:48:11 <harriett> +1
16:48:22 <George> +1 to a single way, json
16:48:23 <ivan> resolved: we should go for JSON
16:48:37 <Rachel_> ivan: I think this closes issue 7
16:48:47 <Rachel_> Tzviya: agreed
16:49:08 <Rachel_> Topic: metadata proposal
16:49:17 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ONzPOG-QwLwWeYpf_cPsvfc6cLGDRmHAEnql967dvEU/edit?usp=sharing
16:49:24 <ivan> q+
16:49:33 <tzviya> ack iv
16:50:53 <timCole> q+
16:50:55 <laurentlemeur> Q+
16:51:00 <tzviya> ack tim
16:51:38 <Rachel_> timcole: there are properties that make this relatable and findable in a body of content
16:52:02 <Rachel_> ...publisher vs creator, publication date...
16:52:19 <Rachel_> ...the manifest may have a title that differs from what goes to the library
16:52:33 <leonardr> q+
16:52:34 <tzviya> ack lau
16:52:54 <Rachel_> laurentlemeur: all information inside the manifest is defined as metadata
16:53:09 <ivan> q+
16:53:15 <tzviya> ack le
16:53:20 <Rachel_> ...everything in there is a subset of the information in the content. Manifest is metadata and metadata container
16:53:43 <Rachel_> leonardr: there is a difference in opinion on what the metadata represents and what we are doing with it
16:53:56 <Rachel_> ...is it for the user agent in order to consume?
16:54:06 <Rachel_> ...is it meant for external processors?
16:54:11 <clapierre> q+
16:54:13 <tzviya> ack iv
16:54:46 <laurentlemeur> the manifest represents metadata relative to the publiation. title, authors, dates are metadata, clearly. The reading order can also be considered publication metadata.
16:54:51 <Rachel_> ivan: I think leondardr said 99% of what I wanted to communicate - but also, the data in the manifest meant for the user agent can also be used for external processors
16:54:57 <laurentlemeur> s/publiation/publication
16:55:13 <tzviya> ack cl
16:55:17 <Rachel_> ...what is used from dublincore and schema.org etc is meant for libraries, reading systems
16:55:41 <Rachel_> clapierre: this is important for discoverability and accessibility (in alignment with schema.org)
16:56:19 <Rachel_> tzviya: there are a lot of comments on this document
16:56:21 <ivan> q+
16:56:29 <tzviya> ack iv
16:56:31 <Rachel_> ... can we get a cleaned up version
16:56:31 <ivan> q-
16:56:38 <baldurbjarnason> q+
16:56:45 <tzviya> ack ba
16:57:31 <ivan> Topic: Web App Manifest relations (starting...)
16:57:39 <ivan> q+
16:57:42 <leonardr> +1
16:57:43 <tzviya> ack iv
16:57:48 <Rachel_> Tzviya: we have not committed to this but are starting exploration
16:58:29 <Rachel_> Ivan: to make things clear, we are not working in isolation. If we decide this is not for us and we need to have well documented reasons
16:58:39 <Rachel_> ...that are well formulated with clear exampled
16:58:46 <Rachel_> ...a separate task force makes sense
16:59:01 <Rachel_> ...there has been some discussion on the relevant issue
16:59:29 <Rachel_> ...if we ignore this it will backfire in terms of browser manufacturers that already use it
16:59:37 <laurentlemeur> I'm interested
16:59:38 <Rachel_> Tzviya: Volunteers
17:00:02 <Rachel_> rdeltour, larentlemeur, bigbluehat...
17:00:53 <Rachel_> Ivan: one more thing - once we have a consensus about 1 or 2, we can discuss
17:01:01 <Rachel_> ...we should get time at TPAC if we can
17:01:18 <Rachel_> ...we should go to TPAC with some choices
17:01:21 <ivan> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
16:57:31 <ivan> Topic: Misc
17:01:54 <Rachel_> Tzviya: REGISTER FOR TPAC (please and thank you)
17:02:03 <Rachel_> ...no meeting next week for US Labor DAY
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17:05:09 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:05:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/28-pwg-minutes.html ivan
17:05:21 <ivan> zakim, bye
17:05:21 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been ivan, tzviya, dkaplan, jeffp, jun_gamo, baldurbjarnason, bigbluehat, rachel, Avneesh, bdugas, mattg, lsullam, Leonard, dauwhe,
17:05:21 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg
17:05:24 <Zakim> ... BenSchroeter, rdeltour, pkra, Tim_Cole, Bill_Kasdorf, Heather_Flanagan, George, marisademeglio, harriett, Hadrien, clapierre, laurent
17:05:43 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
17:05:43 <RRSAgent> I see no action items