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12:08:46 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
12:08:46 <trackbot> Date: 28 August 2017
12:08:56 <ivan> chair: Renato
12:09:07 <ivan> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170828
12:09:28 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: agenda 2017-08-28: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170828
12:14:42 <simonstey> simonstey has joined #poe
12:19:41 <renato> renato has joined #poe
12:22:32 <Linda-B> Linda-B has joined #poe
12:26:39 <simonstey> present+
12:27:06 <ivan> present+
12:27:24 <ivan> present+ linda
12:30:22 <renato> present+
12:30:32 <michaelS> michaelS has joined #poe
12:31:19 <victor> victor has joined #poe
12:31:22 <simonstey> regrets+ Sabrina
12:31:55 <victor> present+
12:31:59 <victor> hello
12:31:59 <michaelS> present+
12:34:28 <victor> I was not here on Thursday. Where can I find the meeting minutes?
12:35:07 <simonstey> in our heads :D
12:35:15 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2017/08/24-poe-minutes.html
12:35:56 <simonstey> scribe: simonstey
12:36:07 <simonstey> topic: admin
12:36:10 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2017/08/21-poe-minutes
12:36:17 <michaelS> scribenic: simonstey
12:36:18 <simonstey> renato: approval of last week's minutes
12:36:44 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2017/08/24-poe-minutes.html
12:37:33 <simonstey> renato: minutes of last week's bonus meeting are rather brief
12:38:31 <simonstey> michaelS: we went over the evaluator issues
12:38:44 <simonstey> ... ben set the focus on the evaluator document
12:38:59 <simonstey> ... we focused on the issue of constraints in a duty
12:39:24 <ivan> i/michaelS/Topic: overview of the separate meeting/
12:39:47 <simonstey> ... is a constraint specifying the payamount equal to one that specifies when a duty has to be performed
12:40:43 <simonstey> ... i.e. an action might have constraints that apply to actions only
12:42:26 <simonstey> ... constraints on action level don't affect whether a rule is active or not
12:42:50 <renato> https://w3c.github.io/poe/model/
12:43:05 <simonstey> renato: based on that, I updated the IM
12:43:58 <simonstey> ... I went through and made it clear when constraints where actually "refining" an action, rather constraining the actual rule
12:44:49 <simonstey> ... I removed all "in effect" terms
12:44:52 <renato> https://w3c.github.io/poe/model/#constraint
12:44:58 <simonstey> ... the constraint section was updated accordingly
12:45:35 <simonstey> ... also added some subsections and examples
12:46:01 <simonstey> ... the constraint section was now moved before the rule section
12:46:19 <renato> https://w3c.github.io/poe/model/#rule
12:46:45 <simonstey> ... I did add another figure (3) to show how rules can be related to each other
12:46:46 <renato> https://w3c.github.io/poe/model/#rule
12:47:11 <simonstey> s/https://w3c.github.io/poe/model/#rule/https://w3c.github.io/poe/model/#rule-active
12:47:58 <simonstey> ... those were the changes that were made according to our recent discussions
12:48:07 <simonstey> michaelS: *grumbles*
12:48:38 <renato> https://w3c.github.io/poe/model/01Constraint.png
12:48:42 <simonstey> michaelS: I noticed that "refinement" looks like 2 words "refi" and "nement"
12:52:21 <simonstey> ... we say that every rule can either be active or not active
12:54:13 <simonstey> ... all nuances have to be explained clearly
12:56:58 <simonstey> [discussing 2.6.8 in more detail]
12:57:06 <simonstey> +q
12:58:49 <Linda-B> +q
12:58:50 <simonstey> michaelS: what deactivates a rule?
12:58:54 <simonstey> ack q
12:58:59 <simonstey> ack simonstey
12:59:23 <simonstey> renato: in example 25, the duty is a compensate duty
13:03:10 <simonstey> michaelS: so whether a rule is active or not does not take the action of a rule into account?
13:03:50 <simonstey> ... so a duty can either be active or not and it can either be fulfilled or not
13:03:54 <simonstey> q?
13:05:43 <simonstey> renato: by default a rule is active (if it doesnt have any constraints attached)
13:05:59 <simonstey> Linda-B: if you have a contract and it has several rules in it
13:06:19 <simonstey> ... when are those rules considered to be active?
13:06:57 <simonstey> michaelS: only rules are either active or not, not policies
13:07:06 <simonstey> ... policies doesnt have states
13:07:09 <victor> q+
13:07:16 <simonstey> renato: policies are groups of rules
13:07:17 <simonstey> ack Linda-B
13:08:13 <simonstey> Linda-B: ok.. if you have the rules, aren't those rules always "in action/effect"?
13:08:34 <simonstey> ... I think we are getting stuck
13:08:40 <simonstey> ack victor
13:09:20 <simonstey> victor: I'm implementing this and had troubles figuring out whether rules are active
13:09:55 <simonstey> ... e.g. once a prohibition was violated, another duty is triggered
13:10:26 <renato> example: https://w3c.github.io/poe/model/#duty-prohib
13:11:28 <simonstey> ... how can I make it explicit that a rule is active per default?
13:12:37 <simonstey> ... I was confused about that.. maybe we should make that explicit in the IM
13:12:46 <victor> "A rule is not active by default if linked to another rule through a failure (consequence or remedy)"
13:13:55 <victor> when i give a url to the failure rules, they do not "fly around"
13:14:02 <victor> my query says "you have two rules"
13:14:26 <michaelS> Why does a remedy de-activate a Prohibition?
13:14:49 <victor> the prohibition is not de-activated, but the remedy is by default inactive
13:16:40 <simonstey> renato: this section def. needs some more editorial work
13:17:08 <simonstey> michaelS: do we finally agree on a view?
13:17:32 <victor> q-
13:17:51 <simonstey> ... rules are active be default
13:18:20 <simonstey> ... if a rule is constrained, all its constraints need to be satisfied for respective rule to become active
13:18:49 <simonstey> ... in addition, duties can either be fulfilled or not
13:19:33 <simonstey> Linda-B: if a date is associated and it's before that date, the rule is not active right?
13:19:47 <simonstey> michaelS: yes, as you have an unsatisfied constraint
13:21:21 <simonstey> renato: simonstey, michaelS could you write you point of views down?
13:21:25 <simonstey> ... send it to the list
13:22:07 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/projects/1
13:22:12 <simonstey> ... I hope that's the last "real" issue we have to address
13:22:39 <ivan> q+
13:22:53 <simonstey> ... and we can close off all the other issues as well
13:23:02 <simonstey> ack q
13:23:56 <simonstey> ivan: to be "that guy", we have to set a date which for us is the date where all issues are closed and all test cases are up to date and ready
13:24:35 <simonstey> ... e.g. 2 meetings from now we "freeze" the spec
13:25:00 <renato> 11th
13:25:11 <simonstey> ... if we don't manage to achieve this, we might have to go to the director and tell him we would be able to produce a spec on time
13:25:34 <simonstey> ... CR procedure can start at the end of the month
13:26:01 <simonstey> ... I've the impression we need at least ~2 months to have implementations ready
13:26:11 <simonstey> ... and at that time it's already december
13:26:20 <simonstey> renato: yes +1
13:26:50 <simonstey> ... we still havent gone through the testing regime yet
13:27:15 <simonstey> ivan: we have to do the testing regime asap
13:27:52 <simonstey> renato: well probably need another call for that too
13:28:43 <ivan> q+
13:28:52 <michaelS> q+
13:28:53 <simonstey> ... haven't updated the vocab yet though..
13:29:29 <renato> ok
13:29:57 <renato> ivan: namespace redirects in place for CR
13:30:11 <michaelS> scribenick: renato
13:30:32 <renato> ivan: RDFa human-readable form
13:30:44 <renato> ivan: maybe by REC
13:31:13 <renato> ivan: implementors use Turtle - keep those up to date
13:31:43 <renato> michael: Ben's truth tables - are these part of the testing regime
13:32:00 <renato> ivan: TT - are they the TT
13:32:08 <michaelS> https://github.com/w3c/poe/projects/1
13:32:21 <renato> ...existing examples
13:32:33 <michaelS> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Evaluator
13:32:53 <renato> ...test cases "to be finalised in 2 weeks"....
13:33:49 <renato> ivan: namespace and JSON-LD context document
13:35:56 <renato> ask Ben to see if we teleconf this Thursday
13:36:10 <renato> (30 mins earlier)
13:36:19 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:36:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/28-poe-minutes.html ivan
13:36:37 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
13:36:37 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
13:36:37 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been simonstey, ivan, linda, renato, victor, michaelS
13:36:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:36:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/28-poe-minutes.html trackbot
13:36:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
13:36:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items