13:43:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pwg-a11y
13:43:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/08/23-pwg-a11y-irc
13:44:23 <Avneesh> zakim, this will be pwg-a11y
13:45:40 <Avneesh> zakim, this will be pwg-a11y
13:45:52 <Avneesh> zakim, this is WebEx 317 985 035
13:47:02 <Avneesh> zakim, who is here?
13:48:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pwg-a11y
13:48:51 <Avneesh> zakim, this will be pwg-a11y
13:48:51 <Zakim> ok, Avneesh
13:49:05 <Avneesh> zakim, this is WebEx 317 985 035
13:49:05 <Zakim> got it, Avneesh
13:49:53 <Avneesh> zakim, who is here?
13:49:53 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
13:49:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Avneesh, jasonjgw
13:56:25 <Avneesh> present+
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13:59:23 <laudrain> present+ Luc
13:59:51 <George> present+ George
14:00:03 <laudrain> do we connect through GoToMeeting?
14:00:30 <Avneesh> it is web ex
14:00:45 <Avneesh> should I send details?
14:02:11 <laudrain> yes please, I don’t find them back...
14:02:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pwg-a11y
14:02:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
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14:03:42 <pkra> present+
14:03:46 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
14:04:21 <clapierre> scribe: clapierre
14:04:33 <Avneesh> chair: Avneesh
14:05:54 <laudrain> ok, thanks for the Webex
14:05:56 <clapierre> Avneesh: WCAG Item - proposed a11y metadata in option and conformance and last week there was a con-call which passed through.  Publishing metadata will be optional, we should explain.  now we have to polish it, going into WCAG 2.1
14:06:14 <clapierre> george: so its optional in metadata is it under AAA ?
14:07:02 <clapierre> avneesh: it doesn't have AA or A, its not a success criteria.  it is optional.  because it is optional a11y metadata went into the same structure.
14:07:22 <Avneesh> q?
14:07:24 <clapierre> George: metadata does not contribute to the a11y of the page, it helps with discovery.
14:07:28 <laudrain> q+
14:07:35 <clapierre> … does not help to consume the webpage.
14:07:42 <jasonjgw> q+
14:08:12 <clapierre> Avneesh: it can go aaa or optional conformance because most of the AAA is ignored.  but if it remains in the conformance metadata then it will be enforced.
14:08:57 <clapierre> … there was resistance as a SC.  does not adds to a11y it tells about accessibility.  so we think this is our best option to get this into 2.1
14:08:57 <Avneesh> q?
14:10:28 <clapierre> luc: discovery metadata, we use discovery ONIX to distribution channels and there is a good a11y list in oNIX, Avneesh and Graham, and it looks to me it is not easy to sync information between metadata inside the publication and onix metadata, and I don't know where we are on this, and what this means in WCAG 2.1
14:11:17 <clapierre> Avneesh: 2.1 does not go into such details, it recomends schema.org it is at the abstract level.  the sync between the two should be maybe in the community group, it is more related to the publications, and WCAG is at abstract level.
14:11:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:11:29 <laudrain> ack lau
14:12:48 <Avneesh> q?
14:13:00 <Avneesh> ack jas
14:13:16 <clapierre> Jason: epub a11y spec inovates in this area, discovery req. distingt from conformance req. to be met in publications that don't meet a11y req.  arg. it is inapropriate that web developers make an a11y claim in machine readable form, but we may consider the epub approach in WCAG guidelines how the reporting requirements and discoverability req. as apposed to the a11y requirements.
14:13:27 <clapierre> Avneesh: we should have this in silver tecnnically.
14:14:03 <Avneesh> q?
14:14:18 <Avneesh> ack bill
14:14:43 <clapierre> Bill: ONIX issue is really important.  in other direction, recall updating onix codelist to exactly align with schema.org and w3c and not sure where that went?  would this be useful the way the metadata is expressed is the same ONIX, Schema, or embedded in a publication.  is there any potential on editure side?
14:14:57 <Avneesh> q?
14:15:24 <Avneesh> q?
14:16:08 <Avneesh> q?
14:16:29 <clapierre> Luc: very important for us in publicaitons that EPUB 3 files build natively that are inserted in the file, but know to the public which is why we need ONIX.  I am not aware / comfortable that ONIX has been aligned with this information with the epub inside, but I think I will touch base with Graham on his side ONIX this sync is OK, he doesn't see that he has to do on his side, I think this should be re-touched, I will try to talk to Gr
14:16:29 <clapierre> aham.
14:16:33 <Avneesh> q?
14:16:48 <clapierre> Bill: I know he has done a lot on ONIX / schema.org. and all that existing ONIX out there.
14:16:59 <Avneesh> q?
14:17:03 <clapierre> Luc: we should raise this in the CG Right?
14:17:09 <clapierre> Avneesh: Yes
14:17:23 <clapierre> Luc: I will mail to Dave C.
14:17:31 <Avneesh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/wiki/Description-of-Accessibility-Requirements-for-WP
14:17:38 <clapierre> Avneesh: user requirements on navigation
14:17:56 <clapierre> … answers many of the questions in this issue. lets discuss
14:17:59 <jasonjgw> present+
14:18:15 <clapierre> George: did you add that paragraph to wiki?
14:18:18 <clapierre> Avneesh: Yes
14:18:24 <Avneesh> q?
14:18:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:19:13 <Avneesh> q?
14:19:27 <clapierre> George: getting the idea that Reading order is important the correct reading order in an article / section and is important / consistent.  Ex: caution in the side bar is a good example, not sure if the WG understands that.
14:19:34 <Avneesh> ack bill
14:20:11 <Avneesh> q?
14:20:59 <clapierre> Bill: wiki pros are good to have.  I think that there is some confusion on trational coding/tagging when people think of navigation they think of a navdoc.  but once you are in a document it is HTML markup.  Just working with HTML structural semantics, with the EPUB a11y spec it just states it must use the HTML semantics correctly.
14:21:02 <Avneesh> q?
14:21:41 <Avneesh> q?
14:21:48 <clapierre> …, typically in an HTML the aside would come before the paragraph so that should be covered, but what we don't have is navigation between documents.
14:21:49 <Avneesh> q?
14:22:18 <clapierre> Avneesh: should we specify more clearly that this is more important that navigation between multiple files.
14:22:21 <Avneesh> q?
14:22:36 <clapierre> Bill: we need to spell it out.
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14:23:05 <Avneesh> q?
14:23:08 <tzviya> present+
14:23:23 <Avneesh> q?
14:23:34 <clapierre> …, I have see EPUBS with everything as a div and there were no sections, this was a major publisher, so we need to really spell it out what it means to have good semantic structure
14:24:00 <clapierre> George: many of us are thinking HTML but there are others thinking about SVG, etc…
14:24:00 <Avneesh> q?
14:24:22 <clapierre> …, that does not have inherently have good structure.
14:24:25 <Avneesh> q?
14:24:37 <Avneesh> #39
14:24:38 <Avneesh> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/39
14:24:40 <clapierre> topic: Issue #39
14:24:59 <clapierre> avneesh: I believe that the comments answers this issue #39
14:24:59 <Avneesh> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/39
14:25:29 <clapierre> …, do all the documents in the reading order must be accessed from the TOC
14:25:42 <clapierre> george: conclusion there was that they do not.
14:26:03 <clapierre> avneesh: the default reading order then there is no need that TOC must point to all the resources
14:26:10 <Avneesh> q?
14:26:31 <Avneesh> q?
14:26:34 <jasonjgw> q+
14:26:40 <clapierre> George: long chapter broken up into 3 pieces, and the next two pieces may not be referenced in the TOC Only the initial page would be referenced.
14:27:00 <tzviya> ack ja
14:27:16 <tzviya> rrsagent, make logs public
14:27:21 <tzviya> rrsagent make minutes
14:27:22 <Avneesh> q?
14:27:27 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
14:27:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/23-pwg-a11y-minutes.html tzviya
14:27:51 <Avneesh> q?
14:27:53 <clapierre> Jason: standard practice, do people want something outside the TOC not from the author, reading system could scan for them for every page etc.  Just trying to know what the expectation and what the requirements are.  THoses things are normal
14:27:56 <laudrain> q+
14:28:07 <Avneesh> q?
14:28:36 <George> q+
14:28:38 <Avneesh> q?
14:28:39 <tzviya> ack la
14:28:49 <Avneesh> ack lu
14:29:07 <DanielWeck> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/wiki/Description-of-Accessibility-Requirements-for-WP#navigation-and-default-reading-order
14:29:23 <clapierre> Luc: we have some comments in the issues, that even for simple publication that this should be optional or unique concept, TOC to default RO , manifest etc.  as we describe the goals of these allow us to separate the different ideas,
14:29:46 <Avneesh> ack geoq?
14:29:53 <Avneesh> ack george
14:30:47 <clapierre> George: end of part of a publication I am at the end of the DOM, and I want to go to the next chunk, and VS Bookshelf it is CTRL + PD, I think that functionality is important, I don't want to have to go back to the TOC and remember where I am and go to the next element is too combersome.
14:30:56 <clapierre> Avneesh: yes this is important.
14:31:04 <Avneesh> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/40
14:31:07 <clapierre> topic: issue in WCAG #40
14:31:24 <clapierre> avneesh: are we happy with this conclusion?
14:31:32 <Avneesh> q?
14:32:02 <tzviya> q+
14:32:27 <clapierre> …, what is the relationship WCAG multiple pages and WP?  reply was that multiple pages doesn't represent WP fully but this is the nearest thing in WCAG which maps.  but as we move to silver we will add more requirements.
14:33:04 <clapierre> Tzviya: that issue and others I raised were not needed to resolve now, but we would just add these different sections
14:33:28 <tzviya> ack t
14:33:36 <clapierre> …, we should add a "relationship to WCAG" this is why I raised this issue to have this as a placeholder.
14:34:03 <clapierre> …, if we add a11y requirements beyond WCAG this is where we would raise this.
14:34:05 <Avneesh> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/36
14:34:20 <clapierre> Topic: is TOC sufficient for default Reading Order
14:34:34 <Avneesh> q?
14:34:47 <Avneesh> q?
14:34:52 <clapierre> Avneesh: but if TOC can only be defined by primary reading order is this an issue.
14:35:06 <clapierre> Tzviya: we should let the WG know about this wiki page
14:35:22 <Avneesh> q?
14:35:29 <clapierre> Topic: Synchronized Multi media
14:35:46 <DanielWeck> https://github.com/w3c/publ-wg/wiki/Requirements-and-design-options-for-synchronized-multimedia
14:35:51 <clapierre> Daniel: Marrisa wrote this document which we will review now
14:36:05 <clapierre> …, DAISY books / EPUB 3 media overlays
14:36:22 <clapierre> …, describe why this is useful to a broader audience and the a11y needs.
14:37:15 <clapierre> …, highlight why TTS is sometimes not sufficient and there is value to Human narration, and that it can be structured navicable and cam be syncroniced with text.
14:37:51 <clapierre> …, essential requirements: 3 usecases - text with pre-recorded audio narration.
14:38:31 <clapierre> …, 2nd - prerecorded audio but no text
14:39:00 <clapierre> …, audio only books, epub 3 MO is always sync with a html doc with/without text but only structure.
14:39:37 <clapierre> …, 3rd video with text transcript.  video rendered on the page and the text…
14:39:50 <clapierre> …, we haven't decided on how we will do this
14:40:09 <George> q+
14:40:50 <clapierre> …, advance Requirements - didn't make it into 3.1 MO, support for multiple granularities, sync between audio / text (word , sentence, paragraph) we could have different granularities.
14:41:42 <clapierre> …, 2nd adv. req: sign language video
14:41:54 <Avneesh> q?
14:41:58 <clapierre> …, 3rd video with descriptive audio
14:42:56 <clapierre> …, we have a list of references of existing standards or standards to be, video captioning TTML v2. SMIL 3, in Readium, media fragment URIs for start/stop fragments of audio.
14:43:15 <tzviya> q+
14:43:18 <clapierre> …, these are exploring a11y benefits and high level use cases at this stage.
14:43:27 <Avneesh> ack george
14:44:54 <clapierre> george: text / audio sync we can provide a great publication. we have a screen play and the movie of that screen play do we envision that there is a sync between the screen play and the movie, next act next scene,
14:45:14 <Avneesh> q?
14:45:24 <clapierre> Avneesh: we are focused on a11y then this can go to the WG for dicussion.
14:45:55 <Avneesh> q?
14:46:01 <tzviya> ack tz
14:46:06 <Avneesh> ack tzviya
14:46:27 <clapierre> Tzviya: we should bring this to the large group.  good that you have the requirements. how should we proceed since SMIL is a w3c.  is this part of the WP  but if this is a piece of WP then we need to figure out how to proceed and bring to large group.
14:47:59 <Avneesh> q?
14:48:02 <clapierre> Daniel: George's comment about video/screenplay, structure betwen back and forth, this would be video / text transcript, text transcript is the a11y, but could be useful in other scenarios, for Tzviya's question, we will decide if this is specific to WP, or web at large, but previous attempts to define this on the web has failed.
14:48:38 <Avneesh> q?
14:48:48 <clapierre> …, now publishing industry can push this more aggressivly, we must use the Open Web platform: readiums own implementation is all using W3C standards.
14:49:05 <Avneesh> q?
14:49:17 <clapierre> …, the sync between audio/text that is where SMILE comes in.  we must decide if we wnat to promote SMIL or depart from this ,
14:49:29 <Avneesh> q?
14:49:37 <clapierre> …, this has yet ot be explored fully, I don't want to mis-represent Marrisa's views.
14:49:53 <clapierre> …, we can wait until she is able to discuss this herself.
14:50:00 <Avneesh> q?
14:50:10 <clapierre> avneesh: do we want to bring this up to the main group on monday?
14:51:17 <Avneesh> q?
14:51:21 <clapierre> George: much like HTML structure good HTML provides great a11y, not much else to add.  so depending on multimedia audio, video, screen plays in WP will determine what a11y needs.
14:51:40 <Avneesh> q?
14:51:54 <clapierre> avneesh: how should we move this fwd, it requires many working groups coordination to work on this not only publishing WG.
14:52:31 <clapierre> Tzviya: I have a call with Garth / Ivan next but not sure this will make it in the agenda, but this may not be urgent to bring up yet.
14:53:21 <Avneesh> q?
14:53:25 <clapierre> Avneesh: lets give feedback to Daniel, Marrisa, and George as you point out that if done correctly there may not be any a11y requirements.
14:53:33 <Avneesh> q?
14:53:39 <clapierre> Avneesh: if nothing pressing then we can skip next wednesday.
14:53:59 <clapierre> …, so no call next week, we will discuss these issues brought up in email or on the wiki
14:54:28 <clapierre> …, clarify navigation document, and give feedback on multimedia to Daniel and Marrisa.
14:54:47 <clapierre> rrsagent, make logs public
14:55:00 <clapierre> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:55:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/23-pwg-a11y-minutes.html clapierre
14:55:24 <clapierre> rrsagent, bye
14:55:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items