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16:15:45 <Alex> no audio
16:15:50 <david-macdonald> we hear youy awk
16:15:57 <Avneesh> not able to hear
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16:16:08 <Alex> dialing back in
16:16:12 <George> I will caall back in.
16:16:14 <david-macdonald> looks like phone is gone
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16:16:34 <chriscm> #disaster
16:17:12 <david-macdonald> If you called in on phone we lost you
16:17:14 <JF> Q+ to respond to Alastair
16:17:24 <david-macdonald> looks like it will be ok if you call back
16:17:38 <alastairc> JF: I wasn't sure if I was missing something that's all.
16:19:01 <shawn> shawn has changed the topic to: 
16:19:10 <Glenda> Lisa:  in appendix it says “understanding metadata”…I think that needs to be changed to “understanding metadata for conformance claims”
16:19:16 <david-macdonald> +1 simple change
16:19:19 <Ryladog> q=
16:19:26 <Ryladog> q+
16:19:33 <JF> +1 to Lisa's point - which is related to my concern/comment
16:19:40 <AWK> ack ls
16:19:47 <AWK> ack li
16:19:50 <AWK> ack jas
16:21:12 <Glenda> Jason: improves discoverability, doesn’t improve accessibilty.  Clearly stated as a way of declaring conformance.
16:21:27 <AWK> ack david
16:21:41 <Glenda> AWK: Vote in favor of it being in the conformance section?
16:21:48 <AWK> ack jf
16:21:48 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to respond to Alastair
16:21:49 <Glenda> Jason and David agree.
16:22:34 <Glenda> JF:  may not be making content accessible today, but it could make it accessible tomorrow.  Want to echo Lisa’s concern that we are talking about two different types of metadata here.  This is likely to cause confusion.
16:23:08 <Glenda> AWK:  Can JF or Lisa open an issue in github around understanding metadata
16:23:11 <AWK> ack ry
16:23:34 <lisa> action: Lisa add issue that we need to update metadata section
16:23:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-339 - Add issue that we need to update metadata section [on Lisa Seeman-Kestenbaum - due 2017-08-24].
16:23:45 <JF> +1 to Katie - GPII will depend heavily on metadata
16:23:57 <AWK> q?
16:24:12 <Glenda> ryladog: understanding metadata needs to be updated.  can be done after we get this off the ground. prefer it to be in the conformance section.
16:24:13 <david-macdonald> Here's the undersand metadata proposals https://github.com/daisy/epub-revision-a11y/wiki/WCAG-Discovery-Metadata-Proposal
16:25:30 <Glenda> AWK:  support for having in conformance section  and being clear about comparing and contrasting metadata related to conformance and metadata related to things like coga.  Do people think this is ready for editor’s draft (to receive public comment).
16:25:37 <david-macdonald> yes
16:25:43 <Glenda> Alex:  just to confirm, this is still optional.
16:25:50 <Glenda> AWK:  yes. optional
16:25:51 <Rachael> +1 to including in conformance claims
16:26:15 <Ryladog> Understanding Metadata section needs to be updated to talk about the two things that metadata is designed to do. 1. Information about additional resources related to the content AND, 2. information about the resources irself.
16:26:20 <JF> +1 to including in conformance claims
16:26:26 <Glenda> RESOLUTION: Accepted as proposed.
16:26:41 <david-macdonald> can someone let me know what happened with PointerGestures (missed fist 30 min)
16:26:45 <Glenda> zakim, next item
16:26:45 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Pointer inputs with additional sensors - Issue 66 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/results#xSC9" taken up [from AWK]
16:27:38 <Glenda> AWK: reviewing survey results
16:28:17 <AWK> Current SC text: All pointer functionality can be operated using screen coordinate information, without requiring additional pointer sensor information except when the underlying function requires input beyond x/y coordinates.
16:29:00 <JF> Q+ to ask what is screen coordinate information, and what is the content author being asked to ensure?
16:29:30 <Glenda> Steve: taking a valid user problem and scoping it out so all "additional pointer sensor information" is inaccessible and how does timing fit in?
16:29:38 <Kathy> Additional Pointer sensor information: pointer information beyond position, such as pointer pressure (for instance on pressure-sensitive touch screens), pointer tilt or/and pointer twist (for instance on advanced pen/stylus digitizers)
16:29:43 <AWK> ack JF
16:29:43 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask what is screen coordinate information, and what is the content author being asked to ensure?
16:30:12 <Detlev> q+
16:30:19 <Kathy> q+
16:30:21 <Glenda> JF: what is screen coordinate information.  What are we asking content author to do here?
16:30:21 <AWK> ack d
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16:32:13 <Glenda> Detlev: not covering real cases right now, idea is content author having access to tilt of a pen, or pressure of a pen…that this would not be good to allow.
16:32:49 <Glenda> Detlev:  it seems to go in circles.  Not sure if we should wait until the next iteration of WCAG
16:32:51 <AWK> ack Kathy
16:32:55 <JF> Q+
16:32:58 <david-macdonald> q+
16:33:13 <david-macdonald> q-
16:33:44 <Glenda> Kathy: yeah, I would fine too with detlev’s proposal to leave this for later.  Cover scenario of pen or stylus on a touchpad, with additional sensor information of tilt, pressure, twisting…
16:33:48 <david-macdonald> thx Alastair
16:33:51 <steverep> q+
16:33:54 <AWK> ack JF
16:34:22 <Kathy> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/66
16:34:38 <AWK> ack Steve
16:34:44 <Glenda> JF:  +1 to holding back on this  (also showing as “A”…needs to wait and not be single “A”
16:35:14 <Glenda> Steve:  if holding until next round, let’s punt it to 2.2
16:35:18 <alastairc> I see the theoretical need, I haven't come across an instance yet.
16:36:20 <Glenda> David:  this deals with something other that x and y axis.  like tilt and pressure.  Okay to wait if everyone understands what this is referring to.
16:36:39 <JF> I can "understand" this, but if this is about digital pens and other stylus events, then we should be calling that out in the SC
16:37:33 <steverep> +1, defer not ignore
16:37:39 <MichaelC> q+
16:37:48 <Detlev> We need to collect some tangible use cases, then take up for WCAG 2.2
16:38:03 <JF> +1 to Defer to post 2.1
16:38:28 <MichaelC> ack me
16:38:29 <alastairc> +1 to defer
16:38:49 <Glenda> Michael : we should have a parking lot for this so we don’t forget it
16:38:55 <Glenda> RESOLUTION:  Defer for later consideration in WCAG 2.2 or later
16:39:06 <Glenda> zakim, next item
16:39:06 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Printing – Issue 76 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/extra_sc/results#xmatf1" taken up [from AWK]
16:40:04 <Glenda> Jim: posted updates in the survey as a response recently
16:40:17 <alastairc> Jim's updated text: Where a page can be printed, essential information can be printed with no loss of content and or adapted text properties.
16:41:44 <AWK> LVTF proposal: Where a page can be printed, essential information can be printed with no loss of content and or adapted text properties.
16:42:15 <Glenda> Jim:  thing it does not include is zoom factor.  We dropped zoom.  The remaining part is important for low vision.  Ability to print is valuable as a way to see the content.
16:42:26 <Glenda> AWK:  what is definition of adapting text?
16:42:35 <jamesn> q+
16:42:41 <Glenda> Jim:  the adapting text proposed SC covers that
16:42:52 <AWK> ack james
16:42:58 <allanj> https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/adapting-text_ISSUE-74-78-79/guidelines/sc/21/adapting-text.html
16:43:26 <Glenda> jamesn:  what is defined as content here?  print stylesheets remove things in a printed form.  Like buttons may be removed because they aren’t useful in a printed form.
16:43:28 <JF> Q+
16:43:33 <Glenda> Jim:  yes, that is allowed
16:43:56 <AWK> ack jf
16:43:58 <allanj> https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/adapting-text_ISSUE-74-78-79/guidelines/terms/21/adapt.html
16:44:26 <lisa> q+
16:44:30 <Glenda> JF: problem of determining what is essential.  print stylesheet may remove button.  Is that essential?  Worried about consistency in interpretation.
16:44:57 <Alex> what's essential is up to the author to decide
16:46:12 <alastairc> "essential" as a term has been reasonably solid, but this is a different context (print) than we normally use it.
16:46:16 <Glenda> Shawn:  essential is already defined
16:46:29 <alastairc> things which are essential as a web page are not essential on a printed page.
16:47:49 <Glenda> Lisa: there is stuff we can do after next week.  These kind of things can be clarified in techniques.
16:48:21 <Ryladog> I agree with Lisa
16:48:22 <lisa> ack li
16:48:24 <allanj> or add to understanding document. and technizues
16:48:25 <shawn> +1 to Lisa that tweaking can wait. Address main issue now.
16:48:29 <Glenda> I agree w Lisa
16:49:27 <allanj> https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/adapting-text_ISSUE-74-78-79/guidelines/terms/21/style-properties.html
16:49:34 <shawn> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-style-properties
16:49:52 <Glenda> Steve:  look at adapting style properties
16:49:57 <Ryladog> Style Properties New  properties whose values determine the presentation (e.g. font, color, size, location, padding, volume, synthesized speech prosody) of content elements as they are rendered (e.g. onscreen, via loudspeaker, via braille display) by user agents  Style properties can have several origins:  user agent default styles: The default style property values applied in the absence of any author or user styles. Some web content technologies specify a d[CUT]
16:50:44 <Glenda> AWK:  do browsers do this today?
16:51:16 <Glenda> JIM:  if a page is poorly written, the author can make it break
16:51:30 <Glenda> Katie:  Yes, it is supported by browsers
16:52:22 <Glenda> AWK:  adober reader prints as author defined it.  I dont know if other pdf readers do otherwise.
16:52:24 <shawn> s/if a page is poorly written, the author can make it break/if a page is poorly written, the author can break -- and if the page and print CSS is well written, then then it can work well
16:53:08 <Glenda> Katie:  that is jus one user agent (Adober Reader).  This is relevant to all web contnet and user agent.  This is not just about PDFs.
16:53:48 <david-macdonald> q+
16:53:57 <Glenda> AWK:  I’m asking questions about feasibility.  We need to ask, is this possible with mobile browsers, word documents.  Just asking.
16:54:00 <AWK> ack da
16:54:10 <shawn> yes, possible with Word docs.
16:54:39 <Glenda> David:  implementability is difficult.  I would suggest punt to later post WCAG 2.1
16:54:46 <AWK> q?
16:54:57 <JF> This is likely not the time or place, but what (if anything) does print layout have on this SC? i.e. Portrait versus Landscape?
16:55:33 <Glenda> Jim:  not a browser issue, it is an author issue.  Author can truncate text.
16:55:35 <JF> Q+
16:55:47 <alastairc> q+
16:55:48 <shawn> agree, not primarily a browser issue
16:56:07 <AWK> ack jf
16:56:08 <lisa> q+
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16:57:04 <Glenda> JF: how does content author know portrait, landscape, different paper sizes in different countries….lots of unanswered questions here.
16:57:04 <AWK> ack ala
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16:58:01 <Glenda> Alastair:  There is such a thing as responsive web design.
16:58:11 <AWK> ack lisa
16:58:28 <alastairc> s/responsive web design./responsive print design.
16:58:30 <Glenda> Lisa: it is harder on people with low vision
16:58:43 <shawn> s/responsive web design/responsive print design. If set things in screen, then browser will print well, albeit plain.
16:58:58 <JF> Q+
16:59:20 <AWK> ack JF
16:59:24 <lisa> ack l
16:59:30 <Glenda> Lisa:  need for people to print is higher for people with low vision
17:00:01 <Glenda> JF: is end game “ensure you provide an accessible print style sheet”?
17:00:12 <shawn> q+
17:00:26 <AWK> ack shawn
17:00:27 <shawn> ack me
17:00:42 <Glenda> Jim:  that would be the technique.  SC should not be prescriptive.
17:01:09 <Glenda> Shawn:  if you create a print style sheet, make sure you don’t mess up accessibility
17:01:42 <lisa> I just here one objection
17:02:05 <shawn> s/ if you create a print style sheet/ Alaistair gave example of printing work fine if don't mess with print CSS. The thing we're saying is  to avoid things that will mess it up
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17:02:43 <Glenda> RESOLUTION:  leave open for more discussion
17:02:56 <alastairc> I have to catch my train, until next time, bye.
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17:03:48 <Glenda> RSSAgent, make logs public
17:04:02 <Glenda> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:07:01 <Glenda> rsagent, make minutes
17:07:13 <Glenda> RSSAgent, make minutes
17:08:20 <Glenda> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:08:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/17-ag-minutes.html Glenda
17:08:30 <AWK> ooh, you got it!
17:08:41 <JF> they may not be complete though!!!
17:09:10 <AWK> I sent the full logs to MC and he will need to fix the minutes
17:09:16 <AWK> on top of it
17:10:00 <JF> Andrew, send the link now, or after it is "corrected"?
17:12:25 <Glenda> will do
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