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14:46:46 <burn> burn has changed the topic to: 15 August 2017 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2017Aug/0007.html
14:47:03 <burn> rrsagent, make minutes
14:47:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/15-vcwg-minutes.html burn
14:47:15 <burn> rrsagent, make logs public
14:47:32 <burn> Chair: Dan Burnett, Richard Varn, Matt Stone
14:47:49 <burn> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2017Aug/0007.html
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14:56:08 <burn> present+ Dan_Burnett
14:57:12 <burn> present+ Ted_Thibodeau
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15:00:40 <dlongley> present+ Dave_Longley
15:01:18 <stonematt> present+ Matt_Stone
15:01:32 <manu> present+ Manu_Sporny
15:01:52 <Charles_Engelke> present+ Charles_Engelke
15:01:56 <JoeAndrieu> JoeAndrieu has joined #vcwg
15:02:00 <dlongley> present+ Chris_Webber
15:02:42 <dezell> present+ dezell
15:03:01 <gkellogg> Present+ Gregg_Kellogg
15:04:14 <liam> present+ Liam_Quin
15:04:34 <burn> zakim, who's here?
15:04:34 <Zakim> Present: Dan_Burnett, Ted_Thibodeau, Dave_Longley, Matt_Stone, Manu_Sporny, Charles_Engelke, Chris_Webber, dezell, Gregg_Kellogg, Liam_Quin
15:04:35 <cwebber2> cwebber2 has joined #vcwg
15:04:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see JoeAndrieu, gkellogg, dezell, stonematt, Charles_Engelke, TallTed, RRSAgent, Zakim, burn, liam, dlehn, dlongley, manu, ChristopherA, bigbluehat, robert, deiu
15:04:42 <cwebber2> present+ Chris_Webber
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15:06:19 <manu> present+ Benjamin_Young(IRC)
15:06:38 <manu> Topic: Agenda Review
15:06:53 <manu> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2017Aug/0007.html
15:06:56 <stonematt> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2017Aug/0007.html
15:07:07 <amigus> present+ Adam_Migus
15:07:15 <stonematt> Topic: Agenda
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15:07:31 <stonematt> Add Test Suite discussion
15:07:37 <amigus> amigus has joined #vcwg
15:08:28 <manu> stonematt: Data model spec discussion, guest speaker, privacy security discussion, and reserve time to talk about issuing and verification.
15:09:15 <manu> scribe: JoeAndrieu
15:09:16 <JoeAndrieu> scribing up
15:09:25 <manu> s/scribing up//
15:09:29 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:09:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/15-vcwg-minutes.html manu
15:09:48 <JoeAndrieu> stonematt: adding test suite discussion to agenda
15:09:55 <manu> Meeting: Verifiable Claims Working Group
15:10:03 <manu> Topic: Introductions
15:10:23 <JoeAndrieu> ...Any new members for introductions?
15:10:47 <stonematt> Re-Introduction: Dan Burnet
15:11:15 <stonematt> s/Burnet/Burnett/
15:11:22 <manu> Present+ Balázs_Némethi
15:11:26 <JoeAndrieu> burn: Background in speech recognition. WOrked in W3C and IETF ~ 15 years. Involved because I'm personally interesting in this "Identity" problem. Solving it without using "identity " per se.
15:11:44 <manu> Topic: Taqanu and Balázs Némethi
15:12:19 <JoeAndrieu> Balazs: Hungarian founder of Taqanu.
15:12:21 <manu> https://www.taqanu.com/
15:12:33 <JoeAndrieu> ... trying to figure out solution for banking for refugees
15:13:00 <JoeAndrieu> ... Interested in how identity can be looked at from different angles
15:13:18 <Balazs> https://www.taqanu.com/
15:13:18 <manu> Taqanu is focusing on financial inclusion and identity. It uses new technology and financial payment tools to identify and verify individuals - allowing for access to the financial services that will accelerate integration into new lives and new homes.
15:13:20 <manu> q+ to frame
15:13:35 <burn> ack manu
15:13:35 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to frame
15:13:36 <stonematt> q?
15:14:17 <JoeAndrieu> manu: Over past few years, we've been talking about refugee crisis. A number of us are also involved in web payments group. Taqanu is at the intersection of several W3C groups.
15:14:44 <JoeAndrieu> ... payments group, this group (VCWG) which lets you establish identity and move claims over the web
15:15:27 <JoeAndrieu> ... interesting to have people interested in using what we're creating here. Today the refugee conversation has been largely academic, where what Balazs is doing is bringing it home.
15:15:43 <JoeAndrieu> ... opportunity to get his input on what tech he could actually use.
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15:16:05 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:16:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/15-vcwg-minutes.html burn
15:16:08 <JoeAndrieu> Balazs: just shared website about how the project started and what we've done in the last 1.5 years
15:16:43 <JoeAndrieu> ... Summer 2015 was a trigger. Living in Norway and having trouble open bank account, I started looking at how refugees would do it.
15:17:03 <JoeAndrieu> ... Without access to a bank account, it is extremely hard to participate in society
15:17:38 <JoeAndrieu> ... It was clear that the way identification is being done--these people are fleeing violence--so many people have a background and education but no way to prove who they are
15:18:04 <JoeAndrieu> ... Most of these people in this refugee crisis, actually have a smart phone. It's the one thing they are most likely to have.
15:18:26 <JoeAndrieu> ... We know that data is generated throughout out lives.
15:18:45 <JoeAndrieu> ... if we can connect that data along with your proof that you are a human being, that should help the situation
15:19:05 <JoeAndrieu> ... our digital life is built on owning a bank account and bank card in Western Society
15:19:40 <burn> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:19:40 <Zakim> Present: Dan_Burnett, Ted_Thibodeau, Dave_Longley, Matt_Stone, Manu_Sporny, Charles_Engelke, Chris_Webber, dezell, Gregg_Kellogg, Liam_Quin, Benjamin_Young(IRC), Adam_Migus,
15:19:41 <JoeAndrieu> ... how we are looking at the problem: banks are unwilling to do it because refugees aren't interesting customers. Not a lot of $$$, at risk for deportation, living on support.
15:19:44 <Zakim> ... Balázs_Némethi
15:19:56 <JoeAndrieu> ... banks have little motivation to onboard refugees
15:20:23 <nage> Present+ Nathan_George
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15:20:39 <burn> present- dezell
15:20:44 <JoeAndrieu> ... We are working together with UK financial authority ? innovation hub, how it would be possible to do digital only identification and verification
15:20:45 <burn> present+ David_Ezell
15:20:58 <JoeAndrieu> ... bringing in reputation network or other identification that are non-governmental ID
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15:21:17 <burn> present+ JoeAndrieu
15:21:38 <JoeAndrieu> ... the way to start the process is a holistic move. Anyone who has a right to stay in country, you have right to bank account.
15:21:45 <burn> present+ Matt_Larson
15:21:52 <JoeAndrieu> ... Anyone waiting for asylum has right to wait for determination
15:22:08 <burn> present+ Richard_Varn
15:22:11 <manu> present+ Kim_Hamilton_Duffy
15:22:19 <JoeAndrieu> ... Even if we could approve the solution, there is risk about onboarding these risky population
15:22:37 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:22:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/15-vcwg-minutes.html manu
15:22:39 <JoeAndrieu> ... the holistic approach: digital footprint, data aggregation, plus payment method.
15:23:02 <JoeAndrieu> ... we have various partners and lots of additional questions to resolve
15:23:18 <JoeAndrieu> ... at this point things are still theoretical, but we are driving to answers
15:23:32 <JoeAndrieu> ... anywhere in the work, financial inclusion is a big issue
15:23:45 <JoeAndrieu> s/work/world
15:24:07 <stonematt> q?
15:24:14 <manu> q+ to ask Joe to engage
15:24:20 <stonematt> q?
15:24:22 <burn> ack manu
15:24:22 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to ask Joe to engage
15:24:27 <JoeAndrieu> q+
15:24:31 <JoeAndrieu> sure if you scribe
15:24:41 <burn> ack JoeAndrieu
15:25:07 <manu> JoeAndrieu: Your work sounds amazing and I'm very interested in learning more and engaging more deeply.
15:25:23 <manu> JoeAndrieu: The way you describe identity, are you seeing biometrics as a part of that? Or is identity more emergent?
15:26:05 <manu> Balaz: We may need some basic identity w/o biometrics, but we are also looking at additional hardware for biometrics. So, there may be a requirement there.
15:26:24 <manu> JoeAndrieu: So, you're saying your approach does have Biometrics anchored in?
15:27:09 <manu> Balázs: Fingerprint or Face Recognition - that may be an added feature since not every phone has a fingerprint reader. We may be able to do face recognition/matching... but we are really looking at what a cheap smartphone can deliver first.
15:27:20 <manu> JoeAndrieu: So your baseline is the inexpensive smartphone.
15:27:41 <manu> q+ to ask about next steps at the end, after everyone is done.
15:27:54 <manu> JoeAndrieu: What's the architecture that you're planning on using? centralized? distributed?
15:28:31 <manu> Balázs: We are approaching this from a self-sovereign direction, where people own their data. We do not want to take the Facebook, centralized approach. We want this to be a good tool for society. We are participating in the Decentralized Identity Foundation as well.
15:28:45 <JoeAndrieu> I'd love to get your feedback on http://bit.ly/joram100
15:28:53 <manu> JoeAndrieu: Great, thanks - cool work - I would like to get some feedback on the Joram paper.
15:29:33 <JoeAndrieu> joe@legreq.com
15:29:33 <manu> JoeAndrieu: This was an academic view of what an architecture for refugee identity could look like - would love to get feedback on that.
15:29:43 <manu> s/joe@legreq.com//
15:30:05 <JoeAndrieu> picking up scribing
15:30:14 <burn> ack manu
15:30:14 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to ask about next steps at the end, after everyone is done.
15:30:35 <JoeAndrieu> manu: let's have some plans to engage Taqanu
15:30:42 <JoeAndrieu> ... alignment on goals
15:31:02 <JoeAndrieu> ... interested in self-sovereign, refugee crisis, individuals owning data
15:31:12 <JoeAndrieu> ... now to figure out how to take action
15:31:31 <JoeAndrieu> ... maybe joe could integrate Teqanu into existing use cases
15:31:50 <JoeAndrieu> ... or Teqanu could try out our tech in the field
15:31:59 <JoeAndrieu> ... but maybe we're a couple months away from that
15:32:11 <JoeAndrieu> ... maybe joe could get some more requirements
15:32:25 <JoeAndrieu> ... and see if we are meeting those
15:32:51 <JoeAndrieu> ... clearly a lot happening on regulatory side. Balaza is going to be dealing with that for a couple years.
15:33:22 <JoeAndrieu> ... but we can probably help the work by incorporating Teqana's needs in our requirements and subsequent development
15:33:32 <burn> q?
15:33:35 <JoeAndrieu> Joe: totally
15:33:56 <burn> s/Teqana/Taqanu/
15:34:12 <stonematt> q?
15:34:39 <JoeAndrieu> burn: we had some disconnections.
15:34:53 <JoeAndrieu> ... manu is reconnecting
15:35:01 <JoeAndrieu> ... now back
15:35:24 <manu> Topic: Introduction of Test Suite
15:35:39 <manu> https://github.com/msporny/vc-test-suite
15:35:48 <JoeAndrieu> manu: here's a temporary link to test suite
15:36:04 <JoeAndrieu> ... goal is to get to brass tacks on VCs. signature mechanisms, what's required, etc.
15:36:20 <JoeAndrieu> ... whenever we use an example in the spec, we'll use it in the test suite
15:36:44 <JoeAndrieu> ... there's a general structure: composed of subsuites. Each subsuite tests certain things.
15:36:57 <JoeAndrieu> ... We are testing for datamodel v1.0.0
15:37:03 <JoeAndrieu> ... may have stuff for DIDs
15:37:10 <JoeAndrieu> [I missed one]
15:37:26 <JoeAndrieu> ... meant to be a test suite for all things Verifiable Claims
15:37:37 <JoeAndrieu> ... not necessarily just for the VCWG
15:37:52 <JoeAndrieu> ... We are going to have to check in private/public keys.
15:38:03 <JoeAndrieu> ... These should be test-only! Never put into production
15:38:12 <JoeAndrieu> ... Then directories for each subsuite
15:38:33 <JoeAndrieu> ... Not sure how we are going to do it. Might use W3Cs test tech. But that may be more heavy handed than we need.
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15:38:47 <JoeAndrieu> ... Our tests are likely to be pass/fail. Fairly simple.
15:39:12 <JoeAndrieu> ... implementers are going to have to talk to one another to figure out what goes in
15:39:21 <JoeAndrieu> ... first version is minimal viable credential
15:39:38 <JoeAndrieu> ... once we have at least two implementers who work with that suite, we can move on
15:39:51 <JoeAndrieu> ... these are suggestions. open to ideas. please add a pull request.
15:40:17 <JoeAndrieu> ... This should also be pulled into the W3C organization, which Manu can't do.
15:40:51 <JoeAndrieu> burn: Liam?
15:41:31 <JoeAndrieu> manu: I've made Liam a collaborator. So just need to transfer ownership.
15:41:42 <JoeAndrieu> [misc github logistics]
15:42:20 <JoeAndrieu> burn: any other comments on test suite?
15:42:29 <JoeAndrieu> ... next item: use cases
15:42:29 <cwebber2> q+
15:42:38 <burn> ack cwebber
15:43:06 <JoeAndrieu> cwebber2: not sure I'm prepared to ask this question. I wanted to ask for input about how the tests will look
15:43:24 <JoeAndrieu> ... will we end up generating claims that other sides will verify?
15:43:33 <JoeAndrieu> ... sometimes these things get complicated
15:43:41 <JoeAndrieu> ... also, we're using JSON-LD?
15:43:44 <manu> q+ to provide some thoughts on C
15:43:52 <burn> ack manu
15:43:52 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to provide some thoughts on C
15:43:58 <JoeAndrieu> manu: all good questions
15:44:17 <JoeAndrieu> ... at a high level, we may want this to be super lightweight. no protocol, no client-server anything
15:44:27 <JoeAndrieu> ... not specifying an API, protocol
15:44:37 <JoeAndrieu> ... its about whether or not the data structure is valid
15:44:46 <burn> +1 to lightweight.  That is all that is appropriate for this spec at this time
15:44:51 <JoeAndrieu> ... in the future we will need a protocol, so we should take that into account in our design
15:45:15 <JoeAndrieu> ... second thought is, the test needs to be against something concrete. Having decided if its JSON, JSON-LD, or XML
15:45:28 <nage> Sovrin's implementation is more of a JSON serialization
15:45:39 <JoeAndrieu> ... currently JSON-LD is most broadly implements, but we're open to JSON or XML if there are implementers want to step up
15:45:43 <burn> s/Having/Haven't/
15:46:11 <nage> but not really, as the CL signatures have their own sort of serialization
15:46:21 <JoeAndrieu> ... The spec is currently a bit in the abstract data model.
15:46:40 <JoeAndrieu> ... These are the topics we need to discuss as a group
15:46:54 <burn> Topic: Use Cases status check
15:47:03 <JoeAndrieu> thanks
15:47:11 <manu> Burn: What's the status of the use cases document?
15:47:36 <liam> [we'll need to include an appropriate test suite liecence]
15:47:38 <manu> JoeAndrieu: I haven't done anything yet, but do have a question - what's is the best way for me to get up to speed on how to do that?
15:48:22 <manu> JoeAndrieu: I just need some help to get up to speed on how to do that. What's the best way to get bootstrapped into that.
15:48:30 <manu> ACTION: Manu to help Joe get up to speed on spec editing.
15:49:10 <manu> JoeAndrieu: I'll try to have something to report to the group in two weeks.
15:49:42 <burn> Topic: Status of PR 67
15:49:42 <JoeAndrieu> back on scribe
15:49:53 <manu> s/back on scribe//
15:50:14 <JoeAndrieu> burn: looked like a thing, but its not a thing. moving on
15:50:32 <JoeAndrieu> ... only 10 min left.
15:50:38 <JoeAndrieu> ... Let's look at PR 69
15:50:50 <burn> Topic: PR 69
15:51:06 <JoeAndrieu> manu: David?
15:51:22 <manu> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/69
15:51:55 <JoeAndrieu> david: if we have a claim with several attributes, how do we handle mix & matching without violating issuer integrity
15:52:15 <JoeAndrieu> ... suggestion is adding a group id, and each claim has an associated group id
15:52:21 <manu> s/PR 69/PR 69: Add section on bundling dependent claims./
15:52:30 <JoeAndrieu> ... that way the inspector would know if claims get inappropriately mixed and matched
15:53:10 <JoeAndrieu> manu: we had a section not filled in in the spec in the privacy consideration sections. I put first part of David's input into that section.
15:53:21 <manu> David raised it as a separate issue here: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/70
15:53:38 <JoeAndrieu> ... David raised this as a separate issue
15:54:09 <JoeAndrieu> ... Typically in privacy, we tend to propose the issue, then discuss solutions, then eventually get to a contribution in spec
15:54:18 <burn> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:54:18 <Zakim> Present: Dan_Burnett, Ted_Thibodeau, Dave_Longley, Matt_Stone, Manu_Sporny, Charles_Engelke, Chris_Webber, Gregg_Kellogg, Liam_Quin, Benjamin_Young(IRC), Adam_Migus,
15:54:21 <Zakim> ... Balázs_Némethi, Nathan_George, David_Ezell, JoeAndrieu, Matt_Larson, Richard_Varn, Kim_Hamilton_Duffy
15:54:33 <JoeAndrieu> ... maybe we should go back & forth in the issues, then probably a future telecon around the issue
15:54:42 <burn> present+ David_Chadwick
15:55:00 <JoeAndrieu> ... Important nuance between data minimization and atomization of claims and what David Chadwick is proposing
15:55:09 <JoeAndrieu> q+ to talk about atomized
15:55:17 <burn> ack JoeAndrieu
15:55:17 <Zakim> JoeAndrieu, you wanted to talk about atomized
15:55:18 <stonematt> q?
15:55:48 <manu> JoeAndrieu: Clarification - it sounds like what David is proposing is a way to limit atomization, but underlying claims aren't further atomized.
15:56:26 <JoeAndrieu> david: we want to support atomization. so each credential has only one claim.
15:56:27 <manu> DavidC: The issue is how do you stop abuse by the Holder, who has all the atomized credentials.
15:56:42 <stonematt> concern here is that the holder can't combine atomized claims in a way that an investigator won't mis-understand relationships
15:56:50 <JoeAndrieu> ... but what if the credentials are bundled together in ways that are never intended
15:56:58 <nage> q+
15:57:09 <JoeAndrieu> manu: may be the same thing, but stated differently
15:57:21 <JoeAndrieu> ... this is why its nuanced and we can use further conversatiosn
15:57:22 <burn> ack nage
15:57:33 <JoeAndrieu> nage: definitely a deeper topic
15:57:46 <burn> q+ to ask about next steps
15:57:50 <manu> Yes, agree with Nathan, that's what we need to discuss.
15:57:55 <JoeAndrieu> ... may be ways to address this better. we'll need to take this up and work to address it
15:57:55 <dlongley> +1
15:57:57 <burn> ack burn
15:57:57 <Zakim> burn, you wanted to ask about next steps
15:58:19 <JoeAndrieu> burn: anything more to do before we take action?
15:58:41 <JoeAndrieu> manu: we can pull in the PR. That's essentially an edit in Privacy section, aka, requirement not solution
15:58:52 <JoeAndrieu> ... we can describe the problem and say we are working on it.
15:58:59 <JoeAndrieu> ... with an issue marker
15:59:02 <burn> ACTION: Manu to apply PR 69 with issue note
15:59:05 <JoeAndrieu> ... followed by further discussion
15:59:39 <JoeAndrieu> burn: want more people involved in writing text
15:59:48 <JoeAndrieu> ... especially in privacy and security
16:00:08 <JoeAndrieu> ... so if you see something missing. have something to add? please add a paragraph and create  PR
16:00:15 <JoeAndrieu> ... we'll bring this up again in future calls.
16:00:21 <JoeAndrieu> ... Thanks, all.
16:00:35 <Balazs> Balazs has left #vcwg
16:00:36 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/15-vcwg-minutes.html burn
16:06:38 <burn> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:06:39 <Zakim> Present: Dan_Burnett, Ted_Thibodeau, Dave_Longley, Matt_Stone, Manu_Sporny, Charles_Engelke, Chris_Webber, Gregg_Kellogg, Liam_Quin, Benjamin_Young(IRC), Adam_Migus,
16:06:39 <Zakim> ... Balázs_Némethi, Nathan_George, David_Ezell, JoeAndrieu, Matt_Larson, Richard_Varn, Kim_Hamilton_Duffy, David_Chadwick
16:07:02 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:07:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/15-vcwg-minutes.html burn
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16:20:33 <burn> present+ Balázs_Némethi, Nathan_George, David_Ezell, JoeAndrieu, Matt_Larson, Richard_Varn, Kim_Hamilton_Duffy, David_Chadwick
16:20:40 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:20:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/15-vcwg-minutes.html burn
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