17:01:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
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17:01:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:01:48 <trackbot> Date: 15 August 2017
17:01:51 <ben_thatmustbeme> present+
17:01:54 <rhiaro> present+
17:01:57 <tantek> present+
17:01:59 <aaronpk> present+
17:02:02 <ajordan> present+
17:02:03 <sandro> present+
17:02:10 <tsyesika> present+
17:02:36 <ajordan> hold on I'll look up how to do it
17:03:13 <cwebber2> present+
17:03:35 <ajordan> okay let's do this thing
17:03:43 <ben_thatmustbeme> Chair: tantek
17:03:46 <tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-08-01-minutes
17:03:51 <ben_thatmustbeme> i can scribe in the mean time
17:03:54 <ajordan> TOPIC: minutes
17:03:56 <tantek> scribenick: ajordan
17:04:01 <ben_thatmustbeme> nevermind
17:04:41 <tantek> PROPOSED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-08-01-minutes minutes
17:04:44 <ajordan> +1
17:04:48 <rhiaro> +1
17:05:10 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
17:05:18 <eprodrom> eprodrom has joined #social
17:05:23 <eprodrom> present+
17:05:39 <wilkie> +1
17:05:49 <ben_thatmustbeme> most important part is to review for resolutions that you might not have been there for and want to raise issue with i believe
17:06:30 <aaronpk> +1
17:06:31 <cwebber2> +1
17:07:00 <eprodrom> +1
17:07:08 <ajordan> tantek: I'll declare the minutes resolved; I'll have to read about the yak shaving later
17:07:13 <ajordan> ... is that meta yak shaving?
17:07:34 <ajordan> RESOLVED: PROPOSED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-08-01-minutes minutes
17:07:46 <ajordan> oh dear
17:07:56 <eprodrom> we hereby resolve to propose to resolve...
17:07:57 <ajordan> RESOLVED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-08-01-minutes minutes
17:08:14 <ajordan> TOPIC: CR to PR
17:08:23 <ajordan> tantek: let's start with ActivityPub
17:08:28 <ajordan> ... cwebber2: how's it doing?
17:08:38 <ajordan> cwebber2: good news! test suite is up at last and I can demo it live
17:08:40 <eprodrom> \o/
17:08:44 <cwebber2> https://test.activitypub.rocks/
17:08:49 <sandro> woo hoo Chris!
17:08:51 <ajordan> ... last two weeks I was complaining about yak shaving, I had to fix stuff in my language
17:08:52 <cwebber2> https://chaos.dustycloud.org/u/tester
17:08:57 <ajordan> ... I have a terrible plunger in place
17:08:57 <cwebber2> JNbn70qGRGTlYm8ZHPmVzQwtfj5ahAHnz9JVpwsy
17:09:09 <ajordan> ... you can visit this, put in this username, and give this token
17:10:02 <Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-08-15]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=104065&oldid=104039
17:10:09 <eprodrom> Wonderful job cwebber2!
17:10:15 <eprodrom> cwebber2
17:10:17 <ajordan> cwebber2: things are working for c2s and s2s
17:10:24 <eprodrom> cwebber2++ imts
17:10:24 <Loqi> cwebber2 has 97 karma
17:10:33 <ajordan> ... c2s and ??? has to be done but I have the general framework and am moving forward
17:10:43 <ajordan> ... even better news, apparently Mastodon has AP mostly implemented
17:10:50 <ajordan> ... they are working on testing things out now and that's also good news
17:10:51 <eprodrom> q+
17:11:04 <tantek> ack eprodrom
17:11:05 <ajordan> ... things are moving along, 2/3 good news things but I'll pause for Evan
17:11:23 <ajordan> eprodrom: cwebber2 I want to make sure, Mastodon is just doing the s2s protocol right?
17:11:26 <ajordan> cwebber2: correct
17:11:32 <ajordan> eprodrom: so we can't test what Mastodon is doing
17:11:48 <ajordan> cwebber2: yes, I've tested puck's stuff and have seen things succeeding and failing for logical reasons
17:11:51 <ajordan> eprodrom: fantastic news
17:12:10 <ajordan> cwebber2: anyway I'll work on getting the s2s tests, I'll try to prioritize those over c2s especially because of Mastodon
17:12:13 <ajordan> tantek: one more clarification
17:12:27 <ajordan> ... the tests, in the UI there was the c2s test and the s2s test and then a separate federation test?
17:12:31 <cwebber2> https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#specification-profiles
17:12:38 <ajordan> cwebber2: these are the different spec profiles in the AP spec
17:13:10 <ajordan> ... c2s client -> clientside, c2s server -> API, s2s API
17:13:20 <ajordan> ... currently working on c2s because that's the easiest to do
17:13:38 <ajordan> ... I wanted to make sure I did the one that gave me confidence things were working
17:13:53 <ajordan> tantek: so you have the c2s clientside ones done?
17:13:59 <ajordan> cwebber2: it's the c2s server ones
17:14:27 <ajordan> ... there's some server stuff worked in there because clients can do some addressing and they don't know if it works, so that's marked as unknown
17:14:38 <ajordan> tantek: re: other variants, do you have an estimate? next week or two?
17:15:00 <ajordan> cwebber2: trying to go as fast as I can, it's difficult because I'm best man in a wedding
17:15:16 <ajordan> ... think we'll have s2s tests up within the next month and client tests should be really fast to do after that
17:15:38 <ajordan> tantek: let's do that third thing
17:15:50 <ajordan> cwebber2: I wanted to publish a new... there've been some non-normative change
17:16:04 <ajordan> ... and we've talked about some normative changes
17:16:04 <cwebber2> https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/
17:16:15 <cwebber2> https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-9-may-to-present
17:16:25 <ajordan> ... thought it would be good to publish a CR with a lot of non-normative typo fixes before that
17:16:42 <ajordan> ... these are all non-normative changes
17:16:51 <ajordan> ... some stuff added to the security considerations but those are non-normative
17:17:01 <ajordan> ... fixed some typos of "actor" as "author"
17:17:19 <ajordan> tantek: that sounds like a good idea, it's been four months so that's another reason
17:17:23 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber2, note that some of those changes are duplicates
17:17:36 <ajordan> ... these changes are all non-normative and won't affect implementations?
17:17:43 <tantek> q?
17:17:52 <ajordan> cwebber2: yes, security considerations might affect implementations but they're non-normative
17:18:06 <ben_thatmustbeme> remove last two entries in that change log (duplicates) :P
17:18:21 <eprodrom> someone using an IBM Model M keyboard?
17:18:51 <eprodrom> AHA
17:18:59 <tantek> PROPOSED: Publish an updated AP CR with only editorial/non-normative changes https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-9-may-to-present
17:19:29 <tantek> also: s/E.1 Changes from 13 April 2017 to present/E.1 Changes from 9 May 2017 to present
17:19:47 <cwebber2> +1
17:19:50 <ajordan> +1
17:19:51 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
17:20:00 <tsyesika> +1
17:20:06 <rhiaro> +1
17:20:10 <eprodrom> +1
17:20:10 <ajordan> I'm not seeing the Apr. 13 change showing up on GitHub Pages?
17:20:20 <rhiaro> yeah I'll take care of it
17:20:26 <ajordan> s/I'm not/<ajordan> I'm not/
17:20:27 <aaronpk> +1
17:20:32 <cwebber2> ajordan, ???
17:21:01 <ajordan> tantek: I think because it's a CR we still need staff to turn the cranks for us
17:21:35 <ajordan> ... I think we noted that in the agenda, presumably rhiaro... yeah August 22nd publications resume
17:21:48 <ajordan> ... because it's a CR we have to send an email for approval to update
17:21:51 <rhiaro> that should be okay
17:21:59 <ajordan> ... rhiaro do you think you could do that?
17:22:00 <ajordan> RESOLVED: Publish an updated AP CR with only editorial/non-normative changes https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-9-may-to-present
17:22:10 <ajordan> cwebber2: so do I basically email rhiaro?
17:22:14 <rhiaro> cwebber2: just remind me if I forget
17:22:19 <ajordan> tantek: I believe rhiaro said she was just going to take care of it
17:22:38 <ajordan> ... so we'll expect that published Tuesday morning of next week
17:22:46 <ajordan> ... we don't have a meeting but at least something happens for us!
17:22:53 <ajordan> ... any issues you wanted to discuss for normative changes?
17:23:07 <ajordan> cwebber2: no, I want to make changes that we discussed last meeting and then discuss those
17:23:14 <ajordan> ... I've been pretty busy with the test suite
17:23:20 <ajordan> tantek: have new issues come up?
17:23:24 <ajordan> cwebber2: no, not really
17:23:45 <ajordan> tantek: I notice informally you've been steering people towards extensions, that's good for the CG
17:23:49 <ajordan> ... that takes us to WebSub
17:23:53 <ajordan> TOPIC: WebSub
17:24:06 <ajordan> tantek: okay, aaronpk, how are we doing with websub?
17:24:26 <ajordan> ... I believe last time we met we discussed waiting until about now to collect impl. reports for trying to transition
17:24:38 <ajordan> aaronpk: Google submitted an implementation report
17:24:49 <ajordan> ... so pubsubhubbub.appspot.com now has a report in here
17:24:58 <ajordan> ... it's their official hub and it passes all the tests
17:24:58 <aaronpk> https://github.com/w3c/websub/blob/master/implementation-reports/HUB-pubsubhubbub-appspot-com.md
17:25:03 <ajordan> ... they used the test suite to confirm everything
17:25:06 <ajordan> ... here's their report
17:25:20 <ajordan> ... this morning tantek snuck in a report for Falcon, as a publisher
17:25:26 <ajordan> ... so we're doing pretty good on number of reports now
17:25:42 <ajordan> tantek: great, I have this vague memory of Gargron doing a live impl. report in IRC for Mastodon
17:25:48 <ajordan> ... does someone have a ??? for that?
17:25:56 <tantek> s/???/permalink
17:26:02 <ajordan> aaronpk: good question, I don't remember the date but I do remember him braindumping a report into IRC
17:26:10 <ajordan> ... just doing a checklist on IRC instead of GitHub
17:26:13 <ajordan> ... it's in the logs somewhere
17:26:21 <ajordan> ... once I find that I'll convert it into a proper report on GitHub
17:26:28 <ajordan> tantek: was that selfreported or did he use the test suite?
17:26:40 <ajordan> aaronpk: I believe selfreported cause he was doing it pretty quickly
17:26:53 <ajordan> ... he thought it would be a quick thing, just fill out the report, but it wasn't
17:27:07 <ajordan> tantek: we need to decide as a group if we're ready to ask for PR transition
17:27:16 <ajordan> ... sandro, any updates on when it'd be good to start that ball rolling?
17:27:25 <ajordan> ... now? can we do it in two weeks? September?
17:27:39 <ajordan> sandro: I think we're a while from the deadline but I don't see a reason to wait
17:28:02 <ajordan> tantek: I thought we were waiting for the Google report and the Mastodon report so assuming aaronpk can dig up that IRC report I think that satisfies the previous conditions we had set
17:28:31 <ajordan> ... for past CR to PR transitions we've started a wiki page for the specs we had to do that for with a bunch of different items to make sure we'd done
17:28:39 <ajordan> ... aaronpk you should start that, if you haven't already
17:28:54 <tantek> q?
17:28:55 <ajordan> ... that's transition request I belive, it's got a bunch of fields you have to fill out/qs to answer
17:29:06 <ajordan> ... let's open the floor to discussing if the group thinks we're ready to take WebSub to PR
17:29:14 <ajordan> ... anyone have any objections?
17:30:18 <ajordan> ... actually before I ask that, aaronpk are there any outstanding normative issues we need to resolve?
17:30:21 <ajordan> ... that really should be zero
17:30:26 <ajordan> aaronpk: there's a couple things open for discussion
17:30:38 <ajordan> ... there's a note from tantek from this morning about clarifying the publisher relationship
17:30:47 <ajordan> ... more explicitly documenting that there isn't anything specified
17:30:52 <ajordan> ... not normative obviously
17:30:53 <tantek> https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues
17:31:14 <tantek> https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/110
17:31:15 <Loqi> [julien51] #110 Topics
17:31:16 <ajordan> tantek: so looking at this list... there's something about topics, is that a feature request?
17:31:19 <ajordan> aaronpk: yeah
17:31:35 <ajordan> tantek: presumably that's for a future version? or are we trying to figure out how the spec could implement it as-is
17:31:45 <ajordan> aaronpk: I think it's a new enough thing it'd be better as a future version
17:31:57 <ajordan> ... especially if our goal is to keep things compliant with PuSH
17:32:08 <ajordan> tantek: any other opinions, has anyone else had a chance to look at this issue?
17:32:23 <ajordan> ... we'll I'll ask for a group resolution based on that
17:32:38 <tantek> PROPOSED: Accept websub issue 110 as a future feature request, not for current version of WebSub.
17:32:55 <aaronpk> +1
17:33:01 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
17:33:03 <ajordan> +1
17:33:10 <eprodrom> +1
17:33:13 <tsyesika> +1
17:33:20 <rhiaro> +1
17:33:35 <ajordan> RESOLVED: Accept websub issue 110 as a future feature request, not for current version of WebSub.
17:33:41 <cwebber2> +0.5 (sounds good but i haven't thought about it much)
17:33:49 <ajordan> tantek: aaronpk if you could update that issue commenting the resolution that'd be great
17:34:07 <ajordan> ... I saw the other issue from Manton
17:34:14 <ajordan> ... looks like a doc issue rather than a change-the-spec issue
17:34:28 <ajordan> aaronpk: it was a change-the-spec issue but at the end he said there wasn't a conflict like he thought
17:34:36 <tantek> https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/106
17:34:37 <Loqi> [Alkarex] #106 Suggestion: Use HTTP 410 Gone
17:34:41 <ajordan> tantek: that then takes us to 410 Gone? where did we end with that
17:35:00 <ajordan> aaronpk: this resulted in a change that we added a while ago so we're just waiting for the commenter to confirm that then
17:35:07 <ben_thatmustbeme> https://github.com/w3c/websub/pull/118
17:35:08 <ajordan> tantek: okay, so nothing outstanding for us to do then
17:35:08 <Loqi> [dissolve] #118 add implementation report on diasporas behalf
17:35:26 <ajordan> tantek: looks like the last thing we have in normative is the... oh!
17:35:32 <tantek> https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/97
17:35:33 <Loqi> [aaronpk] #97 Discussion for Host-Meta feature At Risk
17:35:38 <ajordan> ... host-meta feature?
17:35:50 <ajordan> ... left it open deliberately to try to see if anyone still cares
17:36:01 <ajordan> ... we have to resolve this before going to PR, that's what the CR period is for
17:36:07 <ajordan> ... what's the proposed resolution for this one?
17:36:26 <ajordan> aaronpk: right now there are a couple votes in support of dropping it, haven't seen much discussion in support of it except for Julien's last comment about leaving it
17:36:44 <ajordan> tantek: did we get any hints from impl. feedback... did anyone check the "we implement this" box for host-meta?
17:36:49 <ajordan> ... that's the evidence we should be using
17:36:50 <ben_thatmustbeme> no publishers
17:36:52 <ajordan> aaronpk: lemme check
17:37:26 <ajordan> ... ironically we have the least amount of reports from subscribers, which is where this would come in
17:37:32 <ajordan> tantek: well I think it would be publishers depending on it
17:37:35 <ajordan> aaronpk: true
17:37:42 <ajordan> ... these three publishers do not publish at all on host-meta
17:37:50 <ajordan> tantek: so not only do they not depend on it, they don't support it at all
17:37:59 <ajordan> aaronpk: correct, none of the three have advertised the hub via host-meta
17:38:04 <ajordan> sandro: well it's just that they don't use it
17:38:12 <ajordan> ... not a surprise they don't implement it if they don't want
17:38:25 <ajordan> aaronpk: the need for this would be if a publisher was *only* able to publish via host-meta
17:38:31 <ajordan> ... that's the current argument for keeping it in the spec
17:38:49 <ajordan> ... currently in the three reports none of them even advertise host-meta, much less depend on it
17:39:01 <ajordan> sandro: well they wouldn't advertise it if they need it?
17:39:17 <ajordan> aaronpk: well you advertise which one you use
17:39:24 <ajordan> sandro: well you can't bootstrap out of nothing
17:39:37 <ajordan> ... can't rely on host-meta if no one supports it
17:39:42 <ajordan> ..
17:39:58 <ajordan> aaronpk: as a publisher you can advertise your publisher, _always_, with any of them
17:40:31 <ajordan> sandro: only reason for host-meta is for publishers who can *only* do host-meta
17:40:50 <ajordan> tantek: I thought for some reason diaspora did but the impl. report that ben_thatmustbeme just submitted doesn't have it?
17:40:50 <tantek> FYI Diaspora report: https://github.com/w3c/websub/pull/118/files
17:41:05 <ajordan> aaronpk: Mastodon uses webfinger for other things but not for hub discovery
17:41:17 <ajordan> tantek: okay so people use host-meta for other things but not for websub
17:41:44 <ajordan> tantek: okay, at this point there seems to be overwhelming evidence there's not even an indication of implementors
17:42:00 <ajordan> sandro: I think there's evidence people would want it but there's no way to do it
17:42:06 <ajordan> ... you can't bootstrap this yourself
17:42:17 <ajordan> ... I think it would be a good thing but I think we should probably drop it
17:42:35 <ajordan> tantek: I have a difference of opinion on experiments sandro but generally I agree with you
17:42:49 <ajordan> ... e.g. supporting random feed formats no one consumes yet has been known to happen
17:42:57 <ben_thatmustbeme> doesn't pubsubhubbub support it, and so any existing subscribers from push 0.4 would have supported host-meta
17:43:06 <tantek> PROPOSED: close issue 97 with dropping at-risk host-meta feature from WebSub https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/97
17:43:08 <Loqi> [aaronpk] #97 Discussion for Host-Meta feature At Risk
17:43:11 <cwebber2> +0
17:43:19 <wilkie> +0
17:43:26 <eprodrom> +1
17:43:29 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
17:43:38 <ajordan> +1
17:43:41 <rhiaro> +0 no opinion
17:43:49 <sandro> +1 sadly not seeing alternative
17:44:00 <aaronpk> +1
17:44:10 <ajordan> RESOLVED: close issue 97 with dropping at-risk host-meta feature from WebSub https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/97
17:44:11 <Loqi> [aaronpk] #97 Discussion for Host-Meta feature At Risk
17:44:26 <ajordan> tantek: aaronpk go ahead and note the summary on the issue and make the edits to the spec
17:44:27 <ajordan> aaronpk: ok
17:44:41 <ajordan> tantek: ok, that takes us to... I think that's it for the normative issues on WebSub?
17:44:46 <ajordan> ... anyone know of any other normative issues?
17:44:53 <ajordan> ... before we discuss PR transition?
17:45:18 <ajordan> ... are there any normative changes outside of issues you wanted to bring up?
17:45:24 <ajordan> aaronpk: I don't think so, lemme check the draft thought
17:45:27 <ajordan> s/thought/though/
17:45:45 <ajordan> tantek: cause I would expect the Director to do a diff
17:45:53 <ajordan> aaronpk: yeah we've talked about all the changes we've done so far
17:45:58 <ajordan> ... they've been captured as issues
17:46:01 <ajordan> tantek: okay, good
17:46:17 <ajordan> ... so the only new issue is the one I brought up
17:46:27 <ajordan> ... I can ask Evan to chair for this one since I brought it up but it's informative
17:46:32 <tantek> chair: Evan
17:46:34 <ajordan> ... but we can talk about it in case it has normative impact
17:46:37 <tantek> https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/117
17:46:38 <Loqi> [tantek] #117 informative NOTE pub->hub protocol unspecified, and examples
17:46:39 <ajordan> eprodrom: okay, yeah
17:46:53 <ajordan> ... so, could you explain what the issue is tantek?
17:47:08 <ajordan> tantek: if you look at seciton 6 it has one very short paragraph on what publishers should do
17:47:55 <ajordan> ... I requested an informative note making it clear that the pub->hub protocol is left unspecified, and explicitly say what some public hubs have been doing
17:48:07 <ajordan> ... which is to send a POST request with some well-known key names
17:48:35 <ajordan> eprodrom: I think this is because we have previously-existing PuSH versions where this was their mechanism for pubisher notification right?
17:48:52 <ajordan> aaronpk: what's happened with the spec is that it never specified how publishers verify hubs because some publishers integrate into hubs
17:49:03 <ajordan> ... like when it's built into your blog, so you don't need an external API
17:49:15 <ajordan> ... Superfeedr and Google happen to implement the same API because they're both external hubs
17:49:25 <ajordan> ... those are the two links tantek dropped into the issue, for service docs
17:49:40 <ajordan> ... it's sort of become a de facto standard because public hubs do it that way
17:49:51 <ajordan> ... best thing we can do is say "this is what the situation is"
17:49:58 <ajordan> ... but we can't make it required without breaking things
17:50:13 <cwebber2> q+
17:50:14 <ajordan> eprodrom: can we mention a mechanism for doing things specific ways and what the parameters are
17:50:24 <ajordan> ... even if we say this is unspecified but this is how you do it... is that a spec
17:50:32 <ajordan> ... it seems simple and pretty clear is the question there
17:50:58 <ajordan> cwebber2: I just noticed in some specs I've been reviewing they've been doing it's RECOMMENDED... instead of SHOULD or whatever you can do RECOMMENDED
17:51:06 <ajordan> ... that seems like a good way to shove people in the right direction
17:51:22 <ajordan> sandro: RECOMMENDED is defined as a synonym of SHOULD in RFC2119
17:51:27 <ajordan> cwebber2: nvm then
17:51:43 <ajordan> aaronpk: I'd like ???, not sure if we can do that
17:51:52 <ajordan> eprodrom: I'd like if it was normative, it seems pretty straightforward
17:51:59 <ajordan> ... you'd need some kind of definition as to what that means
17:52:08 <aaronpk> s/???/it to be a normative part of the spec if that situation applies to you/
17:52:10 <ajordan> ... my question is, we're in CR right now, we'd be adding an additional "module" to WebSub
17:52:12 <ben_thatmustbeme> personally i would prefer to see it as a seperate note of ways it has been done
17:52:16 <ajordan> ... but it feels like the right time to do it
17:52:32 <ajordan> tantek: the reason I raised this issue was, I was filing my impl. report and going through all the steps
17:52:44 <ben_thatmustbeme> pubsubhubbub.appspot.com uses hub.url instead of hub.topic for example
17:52:47 <ajordan> ... and I realized as I got to the last step that what I was doing wasn't in the spec
17:52:55 <ajordan> ... realized I was following docs from public hubs
17:53:03 <ajordan> ... made sense to at least mention that that documentation exists
17:53:15 <aaronpk> ben_thatmustbeme, both superfeedr and google use hub.url
17:53:20 <ajordan> ... but trying to be conservative and not add normative text, instead just ack the current situation
17:53:31 <ajordan> ... I would be _for_ normative text in a *future* WebSub version
17:53:44 <ben_thatmustbeme> i also was working on a hub implementation that uses webmention instead of that methods
17:53:52 <ajordan> ... if it gets more uptake and there are no objections... all the usual spec iteration stuff that involve the broader community, I could see it going into a 1.1
17:54:01 <ajordan> ... in particular I'd like Julien's opinion on any normative change
17:54:16 <ajordan> ... I felt it was still valuable to include an informative short note, stating reality
17:54:24 <ajordan> eprodrom: could I propose a second path? we could have a separate document
17:54:26 <ajordan> ... a Note
17:54:39 <ajordan> ... that defines what the state of the world on pub to hub protocol and refer to that document from here
17:54:48 <ajordan> ... the advantage being that could evolve separately
17:55:03 <ajordan> aaronpk: I support the idea of a Note for specifying that relationship, I think tantek's right that the spec should say *something*
17:55:13 <ajordan> ... "it's unspecified, for example here's one way you could do it"
17:55:21 <ajordan> ... as a reader you're not missing something, it really is not here
17:55:36 <ajordan> eprodrom: do we think we'll be further standardizing this interface?
17:55:45 <ajordan> aaronpk: yeah as a separate future document or as a Note or something
17:55:49 <ajordan> tantek: or as a 1.1
17:56:04 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1 to both a note inline as "this is unspecified, but here is one way that has been used"
17:56:07 <ajordan> eprodrom: for me I'm wondering at one point do we begin the little branch/bud that will become pubhub
17:56:13 <ben_thatmustbeme> and +1 to a later Note doc
17:56:22 <ajordan> ... do we note it here and link to it or just leave it as "two hubs do it this way" and that's it
17:56:27 <ajordan> tantek: we could do both
17:56:45 <ajordan> ... how we capture this kind of protocol, whether it's in a 1.1 or a new pubsub spec
17:56:51 <ajordan> ... I'm ok with either option in whatever form
17:57:03 <ajordan> ... but I think that doesn't preclude us at least mentioning the state of where things are
17:57:07 <ajordan> ... that section in the spec is so short
17:57:19 <ajordan> ... it makes reading the spec seem like there's something missing if we don't say anything here
17:57:23 <ajordan> eprodrom: that makes sense
17:57:26 <tantek> s/pubsub/pubhub
17:57:30 <ajordan> ... I'm just feeling like this is great CG work
17:57:51 <ajordan> ... I'm trying to figure out the best way to handle that off
17:58:01 <Loqi> rofl
17:58:39 <ajordan> aaronpk: I think I would prefer to add this text as-is instead of preemptively linking to something that doesn't exist yet
17:58:52 <ajordan> ... let's plan on writing that but in the meantime this seems useful
17:59:05 <ajordan> eprodrom: sounds good, aaronpk I assume you'll do some wordsmithing on here
17:59:23 <eprodrom> PROPOSED: close https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/117 by accepting and including informative note as written
17:59:24 <Loqi> [tantek] #117 informative NOTE pub->hub protocol unspecified, and examples
17:59:33 <tantek> +1
17:59:39 <eprodrom> +1
17:59:40 <aaronpk> +1
17:59:45 <sandro> +1
17:59:58 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
18:00:01 <ajordan> +1
18:00:07 <rhiaro> +1
18:00:13 <wilkie> +1
18:00:15 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: close https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/117 by accepting and including informative note as written
18:00:15 <Loqi> [tantek] #117 informative NOTE pub->hub protocol unspecified, and examples
18:00:34 <ajordan> eprodrom: I'd like to hand the floor back to tantek unless there's something else you need?
18:00:37 <ajordan> tantek: that was it!
18:00:46 <ajordan> ... just wanted to get all that on the record
18:01:08 <ajordan> ... I believe that's enough to close all the normative issues on websub
18:01:14 <ajordan> ... most of which we've just been waiting on
18:01:25 <ajordan> ... and to make sure that informative issues don't have any normative implications
18:01:38 <ajordan> ... already talked about impl. reports, got enough for publishers and subscribers
18:01:43 <ajordan> ... how many?
18:01:49 <ajordan> aaronpk: 5 hubs, 3 subscribers, 2 publishers
18:01:58 <ajordan> ... not counting Mastodon's since I haven't officially filed that one yet
18:02:05 <ajordan> tantek: and the diaspora one that ben_thatmustbeme filed during the telecon
18:02:16 <ajordan> aaronpk: yeah the diaspora one too, that's a publisher. that makes 3 publishers now
18:02:21 <ajordan> tantek: I thought that was true, great
18:02:25 <ajordan> ... let's propose the transition
18:03:14 <ajordan> aaronpk: sorry, got that mixed up - 5 hubs, 3 publishers, and now 3 subscribers with... I can't count
18:03:30 <ben_thatmustbeme> 5 hubs, 3 publishers, 2 subscribers
18:03:40 <ajordan> tantek: did Mastodon submit as a publisher? as a hub?
18:03:41 <aaronpk> https://github.com/w3c/websub/tree/master/implementation-reports
18:03:42 <ajordan> aaronpk: I don't remember
18:03:47 <ajordan> ... I just merged ben_thatmustbeme's
18:03:47 <aaronpk> 5 hubs 4 publishers 2 subscribers
18:04:07 <tantek> PROPOSED: with edits agreed during telcon, transition WebSub from CR to PR, with aaronpk writing up transition request on the wiki
18:04:14 <tantek> q?
18:04:20 <cwebber2> q-
18:04:30 <aaronpk> +1
18:04:34 <ajordan> +0
18:04:46 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
18:04:49 <eprodrom> +1
18:05:21 <cwebber2> +1
18:05:26 <wilkie> +1
18:05:41 <sandro> +1
18:05:45 <rhiaro> +1
18:05:53 <ajordan> RESOLVED: with edits agreed during telcon, transition WebSub from CR to PR, with aaronpk writing up transition request on the wiki
18:06:06 <ajordan> tantek: congrats everyone, this is a pretty big transition
18:06:08 <ben_thatmustbeme> scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
18:06:56 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: Post Type Discovery
18:07:10 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: i don't have anything new on that, i did publish the new draft as agreed
18:07:15 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: JF2
18:07:44 <ajordan> q+
18:07:56 <tantek> ack ajordan
18:08:08 <ben_thatmustbeme> <ben_thatmustbeme> no real updates, just editorial updates thanks to ajordan
18:08:42 <ben_thatmustbeme> ajordan: i have a bunch of other changes queued up on paper, and I don't think i have any normative changes
18:09:13 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: i'll leave it to the editor to request an updated WD when he feels its ready
18:09:19 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... maybe in 2 weeks
18:09:23 <ben_thatmustbeme> ben_thatmustbeme: that sounds good
18:09:33 <ben_thatmustbeme> ajordan: i'll bring in those changes soon
18:09:45 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: Social Web Protocols
18:10:00 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: amy, anything you want to give the group a heads up about?
18:10:18 <ben_thatmustbeme> rhiaro: i don't think i have made any changes since the last update to document status
18:10:30 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: sounds like that is gated on when we get the websub PR
18:10:39 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: Any other documents
18:10:49 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: anything?
18:11:03 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: Incubator CG
18:11:31 <ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber2: we have a call tomorrow, i also had a call with another group that is using AS in a really large way, and they are joining the CG
18:11:46 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... as i said, we have a call tomorrow, so it would be great for people to show up
18:12:02 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: any other topics?
18:12:29 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: thanks everyone for showing up, some major progress
18:12:53 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... with the transition of websub to PR, we are just waiting on the progress on AP and getting that to PR
18:13:03 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... reminder, we have no call next week
18:13:14 <tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-08-29
18:13:15 <ben_thatmustbeme> our next call is 8/29, i believe i am chairing that one as well
18:13:40 <ben_thatmustbeme> hope to see some of you tomorrow at the CG, otherwise see you in 2 weeks
18:13:48 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme++
18:13:48 <Loqi> ben_thatmustbeme has 82 karma in this channel (251 overall)
18:14:21 <tantek> 17 min early from our extended telcon period!
18:14:31 <tantek> ajordan++ for scribing
18:14:31 <Loqi> ajordan has 16 karma in this channel (17 overall)
18:14:32 <ajordan> aaronpk: lemme look up the phone number thing for you
18:14:35 <tantek> trackbot, end meeting
18:14:35 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:14:35 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ben_thatmustbeme, rhiaro, tantek, aaronpk, ajordan, sandro, tsyesika, cwebber, eprodrom
18:14:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:14:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/15-social-minutes.html trackbot
18:14:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:14:44 <RRSAgent> I see no action items