15:37:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pwg
15:37:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/08/14-pwg-irc
15:37:38 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:37:38 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:37:38 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
15:37:38 <ivan> Date: 2017-08-14
15:37:38 <ivan> Regrets+ vlad, garthconboy, laurentlemeur, mattg, laudrain
15:37:38 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2017Aug/0097.html
15:37:39 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2017Aug/0097.html
15:54:29 <ivan> regrets+ clapierre
15:54:40 <leonardr> leonardr has joined #pwg
15:54:45 <leonardr> present+ Leonard
15:55:23 <ivan> present+
15:55:45 <George> George has joined #pwg
15:55:55 <tzviya> present+
15:56:14 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pwg
15:56:35 <George> present+ George
15:56:43 <ivan> present+ bdugas
15:56:51 <cmaden2> cmaden2 has joined #pwg
15:57:48 <tzviya> regrets+ clapierre
15:57:55 <BillM> BillM has joined #pwg
15:58:08 <ivan> present+ laurentlemeur
15:58:28 <ivan> present+ baldurbjarnason
15:58:47 <Avneesh> present+ Avneesh
15:58:50 <jun_gamo> jun_gamo has joined #pwg
15:59:21 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #pwg
15:59:35 <laurentlemeur> present+
15:59:37 <ivan> present+ jun_gamo
15:59:44 <bigbluehat> present+
15:59:50 <evan> evan has joined #pwg
16:00:02 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pwg
16:00:03 <ivan> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
16:00:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:00:16 <jun_gamo> thna
16:00:20 <baldurbjarnason> baldurbjarnason has joined #pwg
16:00:41 <ivan> present+ BillM
16:00:59 <dkaplan3> dkaplan3 has joined #pwg
16:01:09 <Rachel> Rachel has joined #pwg
16:01:16 <Rachel> present+
16:01:18 <ivan> present+ rachel
16:01:20 <dkaplan3> present+
16:01:28 <rdeltour> present+
16:01:34 <evan> present+
16:01:42 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pwg
16:01:43 <mateus> mateus has joined #pwg
16:01:53 <ivan> present+ yuri
16:02:09 <mateus> present+
16:02:24 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:02:24 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Bill_Kasdorf
16:02:36 <ivan> present+ marisa_demeglio
16:02:37 <ReinaldoFerraz> ReinaldoFerraz has joined #pwg
16:02:44 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:02:44 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Leonard
16:02:51 <BenSchroeter> BenSchroeter has joined #pwg
16:02:57 <ivan> scribenick: leonardr
16:03:12 <leonardr> tzviya: getting ready to start...
16:03:23 <leonardr> ...most likely a packed meeting
16:03:28 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2017/2017-08-07-minutes
16:03:29 <leonardr> ...first order of business - minutes...
16:03:34 <marisademeglio> marisademeglio has joined #pwg
16:03:36 <ivan> present+ katie
16:03:37 <leonardr> ...comments?
16:03:42 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #pwg
16:03:42 <Garth> Garth has joined #pwg
16:03:46 <rkwright> rkwright has joined #pwg
16:03:51 <leonardr> ...minutes approved!
16:04:00 <Ryladog> Present+ Katie Haritos-Shea
16:04:00 <ivan> resolved: Last week's meeting minutes approved
16:04:03 <leonardr> ...introductions?  Who's new?
16:04:06 <rkwright> present +
16:04:08 <Garth> present+ Garth
16:04:26 <Garth> <lurking from a plane, you all work hard! :-)>
16:04:38 <ivan> present+ BenSchroeter
16:04:39 <leonardr> BenShroeter: a11y manager at (???)
16:04:48 <ivan> s/???/Pearson
16:04:50 <tzviya> s/(???)/Pearson
16:04:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/(???)/Pearson
16:05:02 <ivan> present+ ReinaldoFerraz
16:05:22 <marisademeglio> present+
16:05:34 <pkra> pkra has joined #pwg
16:05:38 <leonardr> (hard to hear - very echoy - other Ben, who hasn't identified himself)
16:05:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ben Dugas from Kobo
16:05:57 <leonardr> what's his handle?
16:06:01 <pkra> present+ Peter Krautzberger
16:06:07 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
16:06:30 <leonardr> Katie - been with WCAG since 2001.  excited with DPUB work.  will be involved as can
16:06:39 <leonardr> ...large involvement in a11y
16:06:39 <ivan> s/ - /:/
16:06:54 <leonardr> (thanks Ivan!)
16:07:03 <ReinaldoFerraz> present+
16:07:08 <rdeltour> s/Katie/Katie Haritos-Shea/
16:07:13 <Hadrien> present+
16:07:30 <leonardr> and Katie too please, Rachel
16:07:32 <George> welcome Katie
16:07:36 <bdugas> bdugas has joined #pwg
16:07:43 <ivan> Topic: anifest synthesis, scope, outstanding issues
16:07:44 <leonardr> tzviya: what is a manifest?  let's talk some more about this...
16:07:52 <tzviya>  https://rawgit.com/w3c/wpub/manifest-consensus-proposal/index-manifest-proposal.html#abstract-versus-concrete-manifest
16:08:02 <leonardr> ...there is a link about the abstract vs. concrete issues
16:08:04 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #pwg
16:08:34 <rdeltour> q+
16:08:36 <leonardr> ...first we decide what we need (but not how it looks)
16:08:49 <leonardr> ...and then we can figure out what it looks like and how they works
16:08:53 <ivan> q+
16:08:55 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
16:09:11 <tzviya> q?
16:09:13 <leonardr> ...but we started on MUST and SHOULD (and then to fallbacks, explicit, et.)
16:09:14 <tzviya> ack rd
16:09:39 <leonardr> rdeltour: asking, are these concepts (abstract/concrete) that will apepar in the document or just for helping us figure it out?
16:10:04 <duga> duga has joined #pwg
16:10:13 <leonardr> tzviya: could go either way...but we do need to understand is needed
16:10:23 <duga> present+
16:10:24 <tzviya> ack iv
16:10:25 <leonardr> ...the what then the how
16:10:42 <tzviya> q?
16:10:59 <leonardr> ivan: I find it helpful to have that info in there in the doc, as it will hopefully also have info about fallbacks and such that would be relevant in the doc
16:11:27 <leonardr> ...the concepts (but maybe not terms) are helpful
16:11:47 <leonardr> ...it will also help people who are new to the grup (and the area)
16:11:56 <leonardr> ...but maybe we will remove it in the future, but is good for now
16:12:14 <leonardr> ...but my original reason for being on the queue was...
16:12:29 <leonardr> ...to explain what we tried to do with the document and trying to come to concensus
16:12:52 <leonardr> ...and where we knew there were issue (like secondary resources) made those shoulds
16:13:02 <leonardr> ...also listed outstanding issues so we have them tracked
16:13:26 <tzviya> q?
16:13:28 <leonardr> ...for FPWD, this is a good thing that people se where we are
16:13:37 <leonardr> ...and with respec, it could easiloy go into the main doc
16:13:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:13:50 <tzviya> ack bi
16:14:13 <leonardr> Bill_Kasdorf: default reading order in abstract as a must.  Consensus?
16:14:24 <leonardr> ...I am not longer convinced it shoudl be a must, but won't argue
16:14:33 <George> q+
16:14:37 <tzviya> ack g
16:14:42 <leonardr> ...item #7, its a must
16:14:46 <dauwhe> q+
16:15:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:15:12 <leonardr> george: default reading order is an interesting creature, as some documents don't necessary have one
16:15:22 <leonardr> ...but there always needs to be a well defined entry point
16:15:32 <dkaplan3> q+
16:15:38 <dauwhe> q-
16:15:53 <tzviya> ack bi
16:15:53 <leonardr> ...so let's embrace the concept that documents are designed to be consumed differently
16:16:20 <leonardr> Bill_Kasdorf: let me clarify, thigns like newspapers, magazines, etc. don't need a default reading order
16:16:31 <tzviya> q+ to point out that this is wordsmithing
16:16:40 <leonardr> ...but George's suggestion is also good too, about navigating to other primary resources
16:17:07 <leonardr> ...identification + navigation
16:17:14 <tzviya> q?
16:17:17 <bigbluehat> q+
16:17:23 <tzviya> ack dk
16:17:30 <ivan> q+
16:17:53 <tzviya> q-
16:17:54 <BillM> q+
16:18:04 <leonardr> dkaplan3: there needs to be an order for the reader - where there is an algorithm
16:18:29 <leonardr> ...that a tool can use to "scrape the text" and be sure that every page is hit
16:18:35 <leonardr> q+
16:18:36 <cmaden2> Traversal requires a set, not a list.
16:19:10 <leonardr> ...is there an order where every resource can be reached?
16:19:14 <tzviya> ack big
16:20:03 <leonardr> bigbluehat: recently worked on a magazine and there were huge discussions about the "reading order", there was an order/sequence for the user
16:20:18 <Rachel> +1 bigbluehat
16:20:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:20:20 <ivan> q- later
16:20:31 <tzviya> ack ack billm
16:20:52 <Ryladog> q+
16:20:53 <tzviya> ack le
16:21:04 <tzviya> ack billm
16:21:16 <dauwhe> leonardr: we're mixing two concepts: identifying the default order
16:21:19 <dauwhe> ... that's what
16:21:26 <dauwhe> ...'s suggested but not the only one
16:21:38 <tzviya> q?
16:21:39 <dauwhe> ... and there's what Deborah brought up, which is navigation or traversal
16:21:43 <tzviya> ack bill_k
16:21:43 <dauwhe> ... those are different concepts
16:21:51 <leonardr> leonardr: let's not complicate default reading order (of which there can be many others) with traversal
16:22:06 <BillM> I wanted to say: IMO we should avoid being so general as to make every web page (even every static web page) to automatically be a "publication"... this is not the Web Platform WG
16:22:08 <leonardr> Bill_Kasdorf: also agrees with @bigbluehat
16:22:09 <Avneesh> q+
16:22:15 <tzviya> ack iv
16:22:27 <bigbluehat> +1 to the importance of "default" in "default reading order"
16:22:48 <BillM> thus I agree with dkaplan3 that *a* order of the content is one distinguishing characteristic of a publication/document vs. arbitrary web page / web site
16:23:05 <leonardr> @dauwhe: thanks!
16:23:10 <tzviya> q?
16:23:22 <leonardr> ivan: an abstract manifest should have an identifier - we missed that :(.
16:24:07 <tzviya> ack ry
16:24:17 <leonardr> ivan: do we want to try to cross all the 't's today and move this into the doc?
16:24:39 <tzviya> ack avn
16:24:40 <leonardr> ryladog: default is just one, not the only.  and let's not mix up navigation with default reading order
16:24:53 <leonardr> avneesh: i like this document, esp the open issues
16:25:26 <leonardr> ...going through the comments, from a11y, navigation is a stronger requirement than default reading order
16:25:44 <leonardr> ...so default reading could be optional but navigation more requirement
16:25:54 <leonardr> tzviya: perhaps we need a best practices for some of these things?
16:26:12 <dkaplan3> +1
16:26:14 <leonardr> ...building on @ivan, how do we feel about using this as a starting point?
16:26:17 <tzviya> +1
16:26:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to FPWD
16:26:21 <ivan> +1
16:26:21 <jun_gamo> +1
16:26:22 <bigbluehat> +1
16:26:23 <BillM> +1
16:26:23 <leonardr> +1
16:26:24 <TimCole> +1
16:26:24 <Ryladog> +1
16:26:24 <laurentlemeur> +1
16:26:24 <Rachel> +1
16:26:25 <George> +1
16:26:25 <BenSchroeter> +1
16:26:26 <dauwhe> q+
16:26:26 <bdugas> +1
16:26:26 <evan> +1
16:26:27 <pkra> +1
16:26:28 <rdeltour> 0
16:26:32 <rkwright> +1
16:26:35 <baldurbjarnason> 0
16:26:39 <Avneesh> +1
16:26:56 <rdeltour> q+
16:26:58 <leonardr> ...any comments on the zeros?
16:27:02 <tzviya> ack d
16:27:24 <leonardr> dauwhe: just to clarify on FPWD vs. Editors draft?  we're not close to FPWD
16:27:36 <leonardr> ivan: FPWD by end of *year* and the ED leads to that
16:28:01 <leonardr> dauwhe: that's fine just worried about us ending up in corner
16:28:20 <leonardr> ivan: everything will evolve, and also beyond the FPWD
16:28:45 <leonardr> ...as long as things are spread all over the place it's hard for the editor.  MOving stuff into the main doc should help things.
16:29:08 <tzviya> ack rd
16:29:28 <leonardr> rdeltour: my 0 is really about the abstract manifest and information set and I would like to see that in the FPWD
16:29:52 <leonardr> ...otherwise things are confusing from the draft and the terms may make it into normative text (and then are harder to get out)
16:30:12 <leonardr> tzviya: so only speak on concrete?
16:30:14 <leonardr> rdeltour: yes
16:30:42 <leonardr> ivan: what I would propose, related to manifest, is to see how abstract moves to concrete
16:31:03 <leonardr> ...big elephant is serialization and embedded
16:31:28 <leonardr> ...I will write up something about defining the concrete and we can work through that
16:31:34 <leonardr> ...but in the meantime, let's leave it as is
16:31:44 <leonardr> ...undecided but have a bias
16:32:06 <ivan> resolved: the document can be used to go into the Editor's draft, modulo minor editorial changes as discussed at the meeting
16:32:27 <leonardr> tzviya: let's not use the term abstract, it's confusing
16:32:44 <leonardr> ...and that means lots of work for Matt
16:33:17 <leonardr> ...so let's start on some concrete items
16:33:31 <leonardr> ...URLs, IRIs, etc., a big topic.  Do you want to pick it up now?
16:33:34 <ivan> Topic: URL, URI, IRI (any remaining time)
16:33:55 <leonardr> timcole: I submitted a pull request about this
16:34:05 <leonardr> ivan: so maybe we shoudl hold off on this?
16:34:27 <leonardr> ...trying to find the issue #
16:34:47 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/publ-wg/issues/21
16:34:47 <TimCole> https://github.com/w3c/publ-wg/issues/21
16:34:52 <leonardr> ...most of us would agree that for spec purity we should use IRI
16:35:09 <leonardr> ...but in practice the web dev community no longer use the *term* IRI and instead everything is a URL
16:35:34 <leonardr> ...so if we use IRI, those people won;t know what we are talking about (and how it relates to the web, which doesn't use that term)
16:36:08 <TimCole> https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/references.html#refsURL
16:36:15 <leonardr> ...if you look at HTML 5.x spec, there is a strange approach to URL with a reference and a note about using the term URL (but it's not necessary what is written in the RFCs)
16:36:34 <leonardr> ...and while this is completely crazy, it's what we're stuck with
16:36:49 <TimCole> q+
16:36:56 <rdeltour> the newer URL ref, which points to the whatwg:
16:36:57 <rdeltour> https://www.w3.org/TR/html/references.html#biblio-url
16:37:00 <Ryladog> +1 to URL per HTML 5
16:37:01 <leonardr> ...so we should reference URL in HTML 5.x and just follow their lead (even if we don't agree with them)
16:37:10 <tzviya> ack ti
16:37:16 <laurentlemeur> +1 to Ivan
16:37:22 <Garth> +1 (URL)
16:37:24 <leonardr> timcole: I am sympathetic to that, but I have concerns
16:37:46 <leonardr> ...syntactically (URI and IRI) they are defined by the same spec
16:38:01 <leonardr> ...but they aren't the same in term of the way things are used (links vs. namespaces, for example)
16:38:08 <leonardr> ...a big problem in the library community, for example
16:38:21 <ivan> q+
16:38:43 <leonardr> ...perhaps we might lose some traction with groups that do care about the distinction (in favor of the folks who dont)
16:39:01 <leonardr> ...for example, the identifier discussion plays right into this in many ways
16:39:18 <tzviya> ack iv
16:39:23 <leonardr> ...maybe start with the distinction and then drop later.  (easier than other way)
16:39:27 <leonardr> q+
16:39:40 <leonardr> ivan: where are the places where the differentiation matters?
16:39:50 <leonardr> ...identifiers is very important!
16:40:15 <leonardr> ...locators is also a place (since we mean IRI but folks look for URLs)
16:40:40 <leonardr> ...so when we talk about some of these, we may indeed want to use the IRI term.  but exception and not rule
16:40:47 <tzviya> ack le
16:41:48 <leonardr> ...but URL is the norm
16:41:53 <Ryladog> +1
16:41:54 <baldurbjarnason> +1
16:41:57 <rdeltour> +1
16:42:01 <TimCole> +1
16:42:04 <bigbluehat> +1
16:42:05 <Garth> Still +1
16:42:05 <TimCole> q+
16:42:07 <ivan> Resolved+ Use URL-s and use IRI/URI when it becomes strictly important
16:42:08 <tzviya> ack ti
16:42:09 <leonardr> leonardr: +1 let's use URL everywhere except where we excplitly need IRI
16:42:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:42:24 <leonardr> timcole: one last bit on this rathole
16:42:45 <leonardr> ...having the concept of identifier in addition to address is useful
16:42:47 <ivan> Extra Pull Request: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/pull/28
16:42:55 <david_stroup> david_stroup has joined #pwg
16:43:04 <leonardr> ...I did a pull request that address many of these issues
16:43:19 <leonardr> ...but left open others such as #27 (canonical identifier)
16:43:51 <leonardr> ...and use both IRI and URL, clear to differentiate them.
16:43:58 <tzviya> Tim's PR https://github.com/w3c/wpub/pull/28/commits/d766b1c60eee4b81406c6f1363f79744a8928ccf
16:44:18 <leonardr> ...so maybe we can raise issues between now and then on the PR, but lets accept it
16:44:35 <laurentlemeur> q+
16:44:38 <tzviya> ack la
16:44:42 <leonardr> tzviya: email vote
16:45:20 <leonardr> laurentlemeur: reading over the pull request, there is a canonical identifer which is persistant and immutable
16:45:38 <leonardr> ...if a WP is moved to another server, then the URLs will all change.  is this the same pub or not?
16:45:44 <TimCole> q+
16:45:45 <leonardr> q+
16:45:57 <leonardr> ivan: very existential issue that we can spend a year on
16:46:03 <cmaden2> This is exactly the point for distinguishing between identifiers and locators…
16:46:23 <leonardr> ...depending on the needs of the publisher and publication
16:46:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to cmaden2
16:46:33 <leonardr> ...but we shouldn't say anything about this specifically in our docs
16:46:47 <tzviya> q?
16:47:09 <tzviya> ack ti
16:47:14 <leonardr> laurentlemeur: does the fact that the identifier is in the manifest impact this, since the manifest must change if the identifier changes?
16:47:18 <leonardr> q-
16:47:37 <leonardr> timcole: by having this, it leaves open the option of how to handle moving between servers
16:48:01 <leonardr> ...and you don't want to lose the ability to identify it
16:48:18 <leonardr> ...of course, that's up to the publisher as they may wish to lose the identify.  so you need both
16:48:19 <tzviya> q?
16:48:49 <baldurbjarnason> q+
16:48:53 <leonardr> laurentlemeur: so then there is still a requirement that we change the locator w/o changing the identifier?  and so this has techical implications
16:49:02 <tzviya> ack ba
16:49:31 <leonardr> baldurbjarnason: lots of prior art in the web community around this - same problem that feeds (Atom, RSS, etc.) all had to deal with
16:50:22 <ivan> q+
16:50:28 <leonardr> laurentlemeur: perhaps this is better called a persistant identifier
16:50:33 <tzviya> ack iv
16:50:56 <leonardr> ivan: the term is defined by saying it is persistent in the doc
16:51:04 <leonardr> tzviya: next steps
16:51:09 <dauwhe> q?
16:51:33 <leonardr> ivan: need a resolution to close issue 27.
16:52:04 <leonardr> ...then hand over PR to editor?
16:52:05 <ivan> Resolved: Close issue 27, hand over the PR to the editor
16:52:28 <leonardr> ...everyone OK with that?
16:52:40 <leonardr> q+
16:52:42 <laurentlemeur> thanks @bigbluehat I like the PR, yes
16:52:52 <tzviya> ack le
16:53:09 <tzviya> q?
16:53:20 <leonardr> leonardr: it would get more eyes in the main doc - so let's accept it and review there
16:53:22 <Ryladog> q+
16:53:26 <tzviya> ack ry
16:54:06 <leonardr> ryladog: I have a question: musts and shoulds, for example the natural language.  Why a should?
16:54:08 <leonardr> q+
16:54:11 <ivan> q+
16:54:13 <tzviya> ack le
16:54:25 <dkaplan3> q+
16:54:53 <ivan> q+
16:55:03 <tzviya> ack iv
16:55:20 <Avneesh> Title is still under discussion.
16:55:24 <leonardr> leonardr: it's already in the HTML docs, so why force duplication in the manifest?
16:55:56 <leonardr> ivan: that's why it should, not a must - because it's very important but not required there in the manifest
16:56:15 <tzviya> ack dk
16:56:32 <leonardr> dkaplan3: there is not universal agreementn on this however
16:56:32 <ivan> q+
16:56:54 <leonardr> ...and books that have no words, there are finteresting exceptions
16:56:54 <Avneesh> q+
16:57:03 <leonardr> ...so let's just call it a should for now and move on
16:57:16 <leonardr> ...but many people still argue on WCAG concerns
16:57:30 <tzviya> ack iv
16:57:52 <leonardr> ivan: if someone could put in an explicit issue about this (should vs. must)
16:58:03 <tzviya> ack av
16:58:06 <leonardr> @ryladog  will do
16:58:31 <leonardr> avneesh: title is still under heavy discussion in github.  Language hasn't had as much (yet)
16:58:43 <leonardr> ...there is also questions about discovery and how (or if) manifest applies here
16:59:22 <leonardr> tzviya: thanks everyone who is working on the document - please keep them coming
16:59:31 <leonardr> ...if anyone new wants to help, let us know
16:59:42 <leonardr> ...and if you want to learn about the tools (respec, github), we can help
16:59:49 <leonardr> ...and don't forget about TPAC!
16:59:52 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2017/11/TPAC/
16:59:56 <leonardr> ...be srue to book your hotel
16:59:58 <tzviya> q?
17:00:29 <pkra> pkra has left #pwg
17:00:37 <jun_gamo> jun_gamo has left #pwg
17:00:42 <cmaden2> cmaden2 has left #pwg
17:01:53 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/14-pwg-minutes.html ivan
17:02:36 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
17:02:36 <RRSAgent> I see no action items