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13:46:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/08/09-pwg-a11y-irc
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13:47:13 <Avneesh> zakim, this will be pwg-a11y
13:47:13 <Zakim> ok, Avneesh
13:47:30 <Avneesh> zakim, this is WebEx 317 985 035
13:47:30 <Zakim> got it, Avneesh
13:57:26 <George> George has joined #pwg-a11y
13:57:34 <Avneesh> present+ Avneesh
13:58:33 <George> present+ George
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14:00:40 <laudrain> Sorry, is there a web meeeting or only phone?
14:00:41 <leonardr> present+ Leonard
14:00:48 <laudrain> Present+
14:00:57 <dkaplan3> present+ Deborah_Kaplan
14:01:14 <rdeltour> rdeltour has joined #pwg-a11y
14:01:59 <rdeltour> present+
14:02:01 <tzviya> present+
14:02:36 <Avneesh> zakim, who is here
14:02:36 <Zakim> Avneesh, you need to end that query with '?'
14:03:10 <Avneesh> zakim, who is here?
14:03:10 <Zakim> Present: Avneesh, George, Leonard, laudrain, Deborah_Kaplan, rdeltour, tzviya
14:03:12 <mattg> present+
14:03:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see rdeltour, leonardr, laudrain, dkaplan3, tzviya, George, Zakim, RRSAgent, Avneesh, mattg, jasonjgw
14:03:32 <George> George can scribe.
14:03:40 <laudrain> Thank you Tzviya
14:04:16 <Avneesh> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Final_prelockdown_set/
14:04:48 <George> First topic metadata proposal  on WCAG has no objections.
14:05:19 <George> Anybody on WCAG can respond.
14:05:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pwg-a11y
14:05:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
14:06:13 <George> GK: Has jason changed his objection.
14:06:15 <George> Avneesh, it is a new proposal and he has not object.
14:06:28 <rdeltour> q+
14:06:34 <BenSchroeter> BenSchroeter has joined #pwg-a11y
14:06:43 <George> Avneesh new topic on navigation. Extensive discussion on github.
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14:07:14 <leonardr> q+
14:07:19 <George> TS provided a link.
14:07:56 <George> RD: There are several issues. Is nav in the MVM?
14:07:56 <dkaplan3> q+
14:08:13 <George> RM: A seperate is the format of the navigation.
14:08:15 <laudrain> ack rde
14:08:28 <dkaplan3> ack leonardr
14:08:32 <tzviya> q+ to point out that many issues need not be addressed before FPWD
14:08:51 <George> LR: Agree on sepearation of issues.
14:09:30 <George> DK: destinction of MVM and WP.
14:09:44 <laudrain> ack dka
14:09:54 <Avneesh> q?
14:09:55 <George> DK: my take is MVM is not the same as a min WP.
14:10:07 <DanielWeck> DanielWeck has joined #pwg-a11y
14:10:17 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/22#issuecomment-321218784
14:10:27 <DanielWeck> WebEx says: the meeting has been cancelled
14:10:29 <Avneesh> q?
14:10:38 <George> TS: echo DK, adding one the work is to get to a first public draft.
14:10:56 <DanielWeck> probably wrong WebEx link, please can somebody send me correct link + pass?
14:11:10 <George> TS: We know we will have open issues, but we must have a draft in October.
14:11:26 <Avneesh> q?
14:11:41 <dkaplan3> ack tz
14:11:41 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to point out that many issues need not be addressed before FPWD
14:11:56 <leonardr> q+
14:12:12 <Avneesh> q?
14:12:20 <dkaplan3> ack leonardr
14:12:23 <George>  for a AS: Nav is essential  but we do not know where.
14:12:24 <DanielWeck> I'm in now, thank you!
14:13:02 <dkaplan3> q+
14:13:09 <George> LR: What does it mean that nav is not in the manifest. Dif between author provided versus a RS provided nav.
14:13:22 <jasonjgw> present+
14:13:23 <rdeltour> q+
14:13:29 <DanielWeck> present+
14:13:36 <leonardr> q+
14:13:51 <George> AS: Two sections in WCAG, two methods to navigate.
14:14:11 <George> AS: Author can provide a convience in navigtion.
14:14:13 <Avneesh> q?
14:14:29 <George> AS The structure can be provided through the structure of the doc.
14:14:48 <mattg> q+
14:15:34 <tzviya> ack dk
14:15:46 <George> .DK: IS the MVM we are trying to define it
14:16:06 <leonardr> q-
14:16:14 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#terminology
14:16:15 <dkaplan3> ack rdeltour
14:16:30 <Avneesh> q?
14:16:50 <George> RD: I have simal concern. Abstract versus concrete. We must be clear.
14:16:51 <tzviya> q+ to ask what you need clarified in monday's meeting
14:18:00 <George> RD: Another question is about strategy; there specifications, guidelines, and we need to determine what is our strategy.
14:18:17 <Avneesh> q?
14:18:42 <George> RD: Do we want to follow the web approach
14:18:44 <tzviya> ack m
14:18:49 <jasonjgw> q+
14:19:26 <George> MG: Addressing the confustion. When we don't have a set of features it is difficult.
14:19:42 <Avneesh> q?
14:20:46 <George> MG: the accessibility may be shifted down to the content document. Hard to define what is required is it critical. We need more clarity to answer questions.
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14:21:01 <DanielWeck_> present+
14:21:06 <DanielWeck_> (rejoined after crash)
14:21:16 <tzviya> ack tz
14:21:16 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask what you need clarified in monday's meeting
14:21:18 <George> AS Nav is importint.
14:22:09 <George> TS: I hear a lot of confusion. Starting with manifest is perhaps the wrong approach.
14:22:36 <George> DK: We don't understand what a manifest is.
14:22:37 <mattg> q+
14:22:44 <rdeltour> +1 to tzviya
14:22:49 <George> DK: What is a manafest.
14:23:13 <George> TS: we need clarity of the function of a MVM.
14:24:07 <George> DK: the def...is it all or a subset?
14:24:37 <dkaplan3> q+
14:24:44 <Avneesh> q?
14:24:45 <George> TS: This TF needs to be concerned, but right now there are no concerns.
14:25:45 <George> JW: a TOC is normally provided by an author, but if not provided, can a RS provides a synthesised nav approach.
14:26:38 <tzviya> ack j
14:26:40 <George> JW: it could be two different items. Content through a TOC, or the UA providing a nav approach. Those two items are distinct.
14:27:05 <Avneesh> q?
14:27:07 <tzviya> ack m
14:27:12 <tzviya> ack dk
14:27:13 <George> MG: Without a feature set, it is difficuleto define a MVM.
14:27:39 <George> DK: The best thing for us to do is identify the functional requirements.
14:28:02 <Avneesh> q?
14:28:25 <George> DK: we can bring issues of navigation to the larger group.
14:28:34 <leonardr> q+
14:29:14 <George> AS: Perhaps a wicki, but TS suggests it may be in discourse.
14:29:28 <dkaplan3> q+
14:29:34 <dkaplan3> ack leonardr
14:30:10 <Avneesh> q?
14:30:21 <George> LR: I know you want to scure me. We want to make sure that authors have what they need, but we do not want to mandiate that a WP is accessible. Not mandiatory, but faciliate accessibility.
14:31:08 <mattg> q+
14:31:12 <Avneesh> q?
14:31:14 <tzviya> ack dk
14:31:18 <tzviya> ack m
14:31:32 <dkaplan3> s/scure/screw/
14:31:37 <George> DK: Our goal should be to put forward the requirements. If the larger group would determine if accessibility is a must. It is not good use of the TF to say that accessible is not required.
14:31:56 <Avneesh> q?
14:32:07 <leonardr> @dkaplan3 - that's a reasonable point about the groups responsibilities.  The only reason that I raised it is that with respect to a "minimal viable manifest", I don't see things related to a11y as part of that.
14:32:21 <George> MG: Our objective is to make sure pubs can be accessible, but we cannot mandate that
14:33:08 <George> AS: Nothing in our specs will make pubs inaccessible. if there are additional requirements that informs the larger group.
14:33:23 <dkaplan3> q+
14:33:58 <George> Summary we should have a wicki page on navigation so that wehen we discuss we have a reference for that work.
14:34:09 <dkaplan3> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/24
14:34:26 <tzviya> https://discourse.wicg.io/t/nav-type-attribute-proposal/2241/18
14:35:37 <George> navType is a proposal.there is a discussion about using ARIA or new navtypes. It is worth reading. the more that comment the better.itle is the next topic
14:35:57 <Avneesh> q?
14:36:08 <George> AS: we should particiapte in the discussions.
14:36:18 <dkaplan3> ack
14:36:26 <George> Topic Title discussion
14:36:38 <Avneesh> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/20
14:36:54 <Avneesh> q?
14:37:07 <tzviya> ack dk
14:37:18 <Avneesh> q?
14:37:47 <Avneesh> q?
14:38:03 <George> DK:  Issue 24 is a fork of title in manifest, but what are the requirements for a title in a WP, if it is needed at all.
14:38:07 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/24
14:38:11 <Avneesh> q?
14:38:23 <George> DK: I believe a title should be in the WP.
14:39:09 <leonardr> q+
14:39:13 <Avneesh> q?
14:39:18 <George> AS: from an accessibility perspective a title must be there.
14:39:44 <Avneesh> q?
14:40:04 <tzviya> ack le
14:40:08 <George> LR: I would like feedback. How is the title used from an acccessibility context. How is the title is expected to be used.
14:40:40 <George> TS: there are items from WCAG that address this.
14:40:43 <mattg> q+
14:40:55 <tzviya> q+ to answer LR's question
14:41:48 <leonardr> thnks!
14:42:03 <BenSchroeter> regardless of where the title is declared, is it a minimum accessibility requirement that the language of the title be defined?
14:42:03 <Avneesh> q?
14:42:04 <George> AS: title is important for discovery. It is also important for robustness. WCAG currently works with a single file model. We are helping to expand this to multiple documents. A title is very important for this.
14:42:34 <tzviya> q-
14:43:10 <Avneesh> q?
14:43:16 <tzviya> ack m
14:43:20 <dkaplan3> The EPUB Accessibility doc addresses why an entire publication needs a single title: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/20#issuecomment-320743037
14:43:27 <George> MG: If you create something, it should have a name. It is useful, but for accessibility we cannot answer that yet. It could be in the MVM or in the content.
14:43:34 <Avneesh> q?
14:44:05 <Avneesh> q?
14:44:08 <dkaplan3> +1 avneesh
14:44:15 <laudrain> +1
14:44:19 <George> Summary, the A11y wants to see a title, but we don't have a rec if it is in the MVM or the content doc.
14:44:39 <George> Topic Primary resources and reading order.
14:45:09 <George> MG: this is the choose your own adventure.
14:45:38 <Avneesh> q?
14:45:58 <Avneesh> q?
14:46:11 <DanielWeck_> q+
14:46:12 <Avneesh> q?
14:46:13 <George> MG: there must be some order required, but it is dependent on the type of document.
14:47:08 <George> BK: We are talking about publications and not books. What is the proper  reading order for a magazine for example.
14:47:14 <Avneesh> q?
14:47:57 <tzviya> ack da
14:48:04 <George> DW: Non liniar or anslery. Requiring items in the spine has caused problems.
14:48:17 <tzviya> s/anslery/ancillary
14:48:52 <George> DW: in Readium 2, there are a sequence of primary docs. Anything outside the spine is an anslery.
14:49:04 <Avneesh> q?
14:49:42 <Avneesh> q?
14:50:07 <Avneesh> q?
14:50:39 <George> DW: Based on what I have seen primary docs are needed and secondary support the primary, e.g. CSS. Anselary can also be primary.
14:50:48 <tzviya> much action on GitHub today about secondart resources https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/23
14:51:44 <Avneesh> q?
14:51:48 <dkaplan3> q+
14:51:54 <George> BK: My prob with default reading order is we know primary documents are identified and the user must be able to find those primary. Navigation to get to those documents is sufficient. A reding order is not needed.
14:52:27 <George> DK: What are the parts that are vital to accessibility?
14:53:09 <DanielWeck_> q+
14:53:14 <tzviya> ack dk
14:53:14 <Avneesh> q?
14:53:15 <dkaplan3> ack dkaplan3
14:53:16 <George> AS: There should be proper navigation in the publication.
14:54:27 <George> TS: the conversation is ongoing. If you have questions raise them on the mailing list.
14:54:47 <tzviya> ack da
14:55:41 <George> DW: non linary  documents are anslery.
14:56:09 <mattg> q+
14:56:59 <Avneesh> q?
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14:57:40 <George> AS: next call?
14:57:41 <George> MG: let's get away from non-linary.
14:58:25 <Avneesh> rrsagent, make logs public
14:58:37 <Avneesh> 		rrsagent, make minutes
14:58:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/09-pwg-a11y-minutes.html Avneesh
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15:03:19 <dkaplan3> :q
15:03:24 <dkaplan3> quit
15:10:28 <tzviya> rrsagent, bye
15:10:28 <RRSAgent> I see no action items