15:03:45 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 15:03:45 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/08/03-mobile-a11y-irc 15:03:47 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:03:47 Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y 15:03:49 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 15:03:49 ok, trackbot 15:03:50 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 15:03:50 Date: 03 August 2017 15:04:06 chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin 15:04:15 present+ 15:04:17 present+ Kathy 15:04:20 present+ 15:05:54 Agenda+ Touch base about SC's 15:05:56 Agenda+ Understanding Documentation and Techniques 15:05:57 Target Size 15:05:59 Change of Content 15:06:00 Character Key Shortcuts 15:06:02 Orientation 15:06:03 Agenda+ Next steps and schedule 15:06:05 Agenda+. Second half – join the WCAG call 15:06:21 TOPIC: Update 15:06:37 Kathy: 4 outstanding Scs 15:06:51 Kathy: pointer gestures 61 will go out with note 15:07:22 Kathy: device sensors, pointer gestures with additional, concurrent input mechanisms 15:07:25 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATFSC_june/results 15:07:52 Kathy: I thought it would be good on this call to get thoughts around what people's comments were 15:08:21 marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y 15:08:30 Kathy: concurrent input mechanisms – 11 comments 15:08:49 Kathy: I think what's going to come up on the call – do we see this problem in real websites 15:09:14 Kathy: I'm not sure people are looking at github comments 15:09:30 https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/64 15:09:40 chriscm2006 has joined #mobile-a11y 15:11:41 Kathy: Patrick's point is very valid and I ran into that client site recently where only touch. But will fail 2.1.1 if have only done touch 15:12:39 Kathy: this is saying the user should be able to switch what input method that they are using. So if I start using mouse I can switch over to keyboard, I can go to touch, I can go back to keyboard. I can do certain things with certain types of input mechanisms. I don't have to stay using the keyboard or only the keyboard but I should be able to go between the different input mechanisms that... 15:12:41 ...are currently available for the site. 15:13:04 Kathy: we are not saying that if the site doesn't allow for touch use it all that they have to have touch. We are saying that for the input device or mortality that is not restricted by the content, to allow the user to switch to those modalities at any point 15:13:47 Kathy: I think it's important to note that we did change the success criteria language 15:14:34 chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y 15:14:40 Kathy: we are basically saying that if a user has started to use something – if they start to use keyboard it shouldn't restrict what they may do with other input devices 15:16:50 Kathy: some of survey comments are old. Greg's comment was the changes we had. People were saying it was hard to test so we restricted that – we've changed the language completely. Jason's comment, changed Andrews comment about who is impacted – it can be an issue for everybody but there are use cases. Michael's comment – we changed. David is saying we have significant problems with... 15:16:52 ...testability – that's new 15:18:35 Marc: John's comment about security – same thing comes up on a lot of SCs 15:19:37 Kathy: as far as testability goes I think David's point is that he's worried about how can we test every function by switching to a different input method. this means that we would need to – if the system allowed you to use a keyboard and a mouse and touch we would need to test all of those different combinations to make sure that it still worked. So I'd have to go from keyboard to touch... 15:19:38 ...I'd have to go from keyboard to mouse I'd have to go from mouse to keyboard and mouse to touch. So we have three that means we have nine different combinations. 15:19:43 Chris: that becomes a disaster very quickly 15:19:54 Chris: the number of input mechanisms factorial would be the combination that you have to test 15:20:10 Kathy: it is testable – it's not that it's not testable. It's that there are a lot of combinations 15:20:56 Chris: can we go over one of the standard use cases again? I'm thinking of testability for a standard use case. Motivation being with testability if you can transition from one to the other do you then assume you can transition to the rest – just testing one would be reasonable. I don't know if we can conclude that or not but if we can it would make testability much more reasonable 15:22:00 Kathy: it's no different– shifting backward using keyboard you may hit a keyboard trap, just that one thing. If you have it across all the platforms in all the browsers you're going to have different results on different browsers 15:22:12 Chris: can we pick a combination that they support anyway 15:22:53 Kathy: that's part of the report – we don't tell people in 2.1 that they have to testing all the different browsers. Here, same thing given the input modalities that they're using they should be able to switch between them. We don't tell people that no matter what keyboard interface there using they have to test for all the keyboard interfaces either 15:24:07 Kathy we are not talking about user agents or specifying which input mechanisms they are using or not using 15:24:29 Shadi: how do we test for whether it supports mouse or not 15:24:44 Kathy: that's where we get into accessibility support – certain browsers, assistive technologies – kind of the same 15:25:14 Shadi: implicitly we are requiring mouse support here and WcAG doesn't support that 15:25:35 Kathy: we are just saying that not restricted 15:27:56 Kathy: another thing we could do is with this is a AAA requirement instead of a AA 15:28:36 Chris: that makes sense – the line of thinking if this works, then most should work. That seems like a user agent problem. If you support a, B, C individually and a scenario were combining them breaks I believe that is a failure of the user agent and not the developer of the given application 15:28:48 Kathy: but you can do a touch only event and not have it work with the other input – it is also developer 15:29:35 Chris: yes, but there's an aspect of this – make sure it works with touch, mouse, keyboard. That's fine that's the developer's responsibility. There's the other aspect of this that is I'm using my mouse for a while and then suddenly I switch to touch. What I'm suggesting is the combinations don't need to be tested because if a combination breaks it's the user agent's fault it's the... 15:29:37 ...developer only needs to individually test each individual input and if they're using conjunction and combination that is a user agent failure 15:29:54 Kathy: exactly, that's why we put in the language that it's not restricted. That's what we put into address that exact point. That also came up on the call. 15:30:41 Kathy: your point is interesting – we are not saying you have to test for every combination, we just want assurance that you're not doing it restricted. So the test case is just to make sure you're not using things for touch only or keyboard only. 4 15:30:48 Chris: that exists already 15:31:21 Kathy: keyboard only, but this is expanding it further – yes we agree that keyboard is important but it is not the only and primary that everybody is interacting today – for mobile were not assuming everybody has a keyboard.. If we were restricting it to only keyboard we've got a problem. The users may want to go between using keyboard and touch 15:32:23 Kathy: if we get through this one we've only got one outstanding left – pointer inputs with additional sensors 15:32:55 Shadi: I think it's just a matter of the wording 15:33:07 Kathy: the key is not that it has to, just were not restricting it 15:33:48 rrsagent, make minutes 15:33:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 15:36:56 Present+ Marc 15:37:05 rrsagent, make minutes 15:37:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 17:57:03 chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y