13:53:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag-act
13:53:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/07/17-wcag-act-irc
13:53:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:53:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wcag-act
13:53:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:53:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:53:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessibility Conformance Testing Teleconference
13:53:53 <trackbot> Date: 17 July 2017
13:53:58 <Wilco> agenda?
13:54:10 <Wilco> agenda+ Rules Format pull request: Expand accessibility requirements section https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/96
13:54:20 <Wilco> agenda+ Rules Format pull request: Merge change log with version history https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/94
13:54:25 <Wilco> agenda+ Issue 45: Create example rules to prototype with https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/45
13:54:32 <Wilco> agenda+ ACT review process https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/conformance-testing/wiki/ACT_Review_Process
13:54:38 <Wilco> agenda+ Book and register for TPAC: Thurs-Fri is the ACT meeting
13:54:47 <Wilco> agenda+ Next meeting is on July 24
13:54:55 <kasper_isager> kasper_isager has joined #wcag-act
13:56:46 <kasper_isager> Hi there! Might someone be able to share the meeting password?
13:56:58 <rdeltour> rdeltour has joined #wcag-act
13:57:24 <anne_thyme> anne_thyme has joined #wcag-act
13:57:56 <kasper_isager> Perfect, thanks :-)
14:01:38 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #wcag-act
14:03:29 <rdeltour> present+
14:03:41 <shadi> scribe: shadi
14:04:02 <shadi> present+ wilco, kasper, anne, maryjo, shadi
14:04:08 <Sujasree> Sujasree has joined #wcag-act
14:04:24 <Wilco> agenda?
14:04:58 <shadi> zakim, take up next
14:04:58 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Rules Format pull request: Expand accessibility requirements section https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/96" taken up [from Wilco]
14:05:14 <Wilco> https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/96/files?diff=split
14:05:29 <shadi> present+ Sujasree
14:06:28 <shadi> Wilco: expanded on section
14:06:45 <shadi> ...comments on proposed text?
14:07:06 <shadi> Romain: looks good to me
14:07:38 <shadi> Shadi: looks good to me too
14:07:39 <Manoj> Manoj has joined #wcag-act
14:08:04 <shadi> Kasper: definitely needed - especially need for rules to be consistent
14:08:13 <shadi> ...could add more concrete example
14:08:48 <shadi> ...how does this look like on a rule for a specific technique or specific success criteria
14:09:21 <shadi> ...there is a difference between failing a failure technique and a success criteria
14:09:22 <MoeKraft> MoeKraft has joined #wcag-act
14:10:11 <shadi> ...what happens when one technique passes or fails - it doesn't directly map to the success criteria
14:10:19 <MoeKraft> what's WebEx password? Thanks
14:11:14 <shadi> Wilco: failure of a rule is a failure of the success criteria
14:11:15 <shadi> q+
14:11:38 <shadi> Anne: what about a braod success criterion like 2.4.1?
14:11:48 <shadi> ...would all these be in one rule?
14:11:52 <Wilco> ack s
14:15:46 <shadi> Shadi: text reads like techniques and success criteria are both requirements
14:16:00 <shadi> ...but actually only the success criteria are requirements
14:16:41 <shadi> Wilco: some organizations require certain techniques
14:16:56 <shadi> Shadi: but these would be like new success criteria
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14:17:36 <shadi> present+ alistair, manoj
14:18:14 <shadi> Anne: need to check in detail
14:18:57 <shadi> Wilco: rules need to be self-contained
14:19:27 <shadi> ...if they have dependencies to other rules then it adds complexity
14:19:38 <shadi> s/to/on
14:20:02 <Sujasree> +1 to wilco... for example, if we used a technique to meet a success criteria then we need to have both pass and fail test rules for the same
14:20:17 <shadi> Anne: but then you have several test rules for one success criterion?
14:20:38 <shadi> ...if one is manual then you cannot automate the process
14:20:49 <shadi> Wilco: yes. tradeoff between making them small
14:22:18 <shadi> Shadi: suggest you make the paragraph only about "accessibility requirements"
14:22:47 <shadi> ...then add a note to say that in WCAG 2 success criteria define accessibility requirements, not techniques
14:23:24 <shadi> zakim, take up next
14:23:24 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Rules Format pull request: Merge change log with version history https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/94" taken up [from Wilco]
14:24:16 <Wilco> https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/94/files
14:24:28 <Wilco> It is important to keep track of what has changed in ACT rules, so that users of them can work out if changes in accessibility results are due to changes in the rules used in testing, rather than changes in the content itself. It is recommended that for huge changes, a new rule is created and the old rule is deprecated.
14:24:36 <Wilco> An example of when a new rule should be created would be when going from a rule that tests the use of a blink element, and changes it to a rule that looks for animated style changes. This potentially adds lots of new issues that were previously out of scope. But for that same rule, adding a step to check if the blink element is positioned off screen, should be done by updating the existing rule.
14:24:41 <Wilco> All changes to an ACT Rule that can change the outcome of a test MUST be recorded in a change log. The change log can either be part of the rule document itself, or be referenced from it. Each new release of an ACT Rule must be identifiable with either a date or a version number.
14:26:30 <rdeltour> q+
14:26:38 <Wilco> ack r
14:27:04 <shadi> Romain: purely editorial - would remove last paragraph to become first
14:27:40 <shadi> ...other comment is how to use the changelog
14:28:04 <shadi> ...think it was for users to see changes
14:28:37 <shadi> ...do we need a requirement, like permament links?
14:29:05 <shadi> ...for users to know which rule changed and to what version
14:29:50 <shadi> Wilco: probably default W3C approach
14:30:08 <shadi> ...but not sure want to require it for every version
14:30:35 <shadi> Romain: more about referencing - how can I refer to a particular version of a test rule?
14:31:03 <shadi> Wilco: had that approach but was not liked
14:31:11 <shadi> ...decided to drop versioning
14:31:26 <shadi> Romain: but how do we reference particular versions?
14:31:48 <shadi> Wilco: use case?
14:32:07 <shadi> Romain: want to compare an implementation with the reference
14:32:26 <shadi> ...but if the rule changed in between then it will be difficult to tell
14:32:37 <shadi> +1 to romain
14:33:14 <anne_thyme> +1 to romain and shadi
14:33:19 <shadi> Shadi: also comparing tools would be difficult
14:34:04 <shadi> ...need some sort of a handle, like a date or version number or such
14:34:35 <shadi> Anne: was assuming date-space versioning, like standard W3C
14:35:09 <shadi> Wilco: anyone disagree?
14:35:30 <shadi> Alistair: don't you get that from GitHub anyway?
14:35:49 <shadi> Wilco: yes. W3C uses this approach too. but should it be a requirement?
14:36:13 <shadi> Alistair: not a huge deal
14:36:29 <shadi> ...doubt we would use the same versioning internally as W3C does
14:37:00 <shadi> ...would probably map to it
14:37:10 <shadi> Wilco: possibly us too
14:37:54 <shadi> q+
14:39:02 <shadi> ack me
14:39:24 <shadi> Shadi: other example than "blink element"?
14:39:38 <shadi> Wilco: will look for better example
14:40:02 <shadi> zakim, take up next
14:40:02 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Issue 45: Create example rules to prototype with https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/45" taken up [from Wilco]
14:40:37 <Wilco> https://wilcofiers.github.io/act-rules/rules/ACT-R1.html
14:41:36 <shadi> Wilco: want to publish in August
14:41:49 <shadi> ...want to have accompanying example test rules
14:42:06 <shadi> ...is this a good candidate?
14:42:48 <shadi> Anne: could we also have a less technical example?
14:43:17 <Wilco> https://auto-wcag.github.io/auto-wcag/pages/rules.html
14:43:17 <shadi> Wilco: good idea, want more than one example
14:43:52 <Wilco> https://auto-wcag.github.io/auto-wcag/rules/SC3-1-1-html.html
14:43:52 <shadi> Wilco: maybe a rule on language?
14:44:55 <shadi> Anne: is less scary - just "BCP47"?
14:45:09 <shadi> Wilco: can put that in a different list
14:46:00 <shadi> q+ to talk about credits
14:46:13 <Sujasree> q+
14:46:29 <Wilco> ack sh
14:46:29 <Zakim> shadi, you wanted to talk about credits
14:46:33 <Wilco> ack su
14:47:10 <shadi> Sujasree: maybe pictorial approach like a flow chart for the steps of a test rule?
14:47:19 <shadi> ...makes it easier to understand
14:47:57 <shadi> Sujasree: do we attach test cases to these test rules?
14:48:07 <shadi> Wilco: yes, we should
14:48:16 <shadi> ...think part of the requirements
14:48:41 <shadi> Sujasree: I don't see the corresponding section, which is why I asked
14:48:49 <shadi> Wilco: there should be one!
14:49:36 <shadi> Alistair: test rules have to be ironclad
14:49:41 <shadi> ...these seem to have issues
14:50:30 <shadi> [Alistair lists several issues with aria test rule]
14:52:42 <shadi> ...but also needs to look attractive
14:52:59 <Sujasree> I was talking about something like this - for pseudo code flow chart - http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~ceng303/manuals/fortran/FOR3_3.html
14:53:55 <shadi> Wilco: will look for other rules as well
14:54:47 <kasper_isager> Possible option: https://knsv.github.io/mermaid/
14:55:38 <shadi> Shadi: like the idea of flow chart - is there a generator or a simple way to create them?
14:56:21 <shadi> Sujasree: will look for it
14:57:55 <shadi> Shadi: what about a credit section in the test rules template too?
14:59:09 <shadi> Wilco: like that
14:59:37 <shadi> Alistair: what if it is two people
15:01:19 <shadi> Shadi: both listed as contributors?
15:01:28 <shadi> Alistair: gets gray who did what
15:01:38 <shadi> Wilco: maybe not that complicated
15:02:41 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
15:02:41 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:02:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been rdeltour, wilco, kasper, anne, maryjo, shadi, Sujasree, alistair, manoj
15:02:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:02:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/17-wcag-act-minutes.html trackbot
15:02:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:02:50 <RRSAgent> I see no action items