13:58:46 RRSAgent has joined #tt 13:58:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/07/06-tt-irc 13:58:48 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:58:48 Zakim has joined #tt 13:58:50 Zakim, this will be TTML 13:58:50 ok, trackbot 13:58:51 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 13:58:51 Date: 06 July 2017 13:58:56 dae has joined #tt 13:59:35 Present: Nigel 13:59:38 scribe: nigel 13:59:40 Chair: Nigel 13:59:44 Regrets: Andreas 14:00:21 tmichel has joined #tt 14:00:21 Present+ Dae, Glenn 14:01:52 mike has joined #tt 14:02:46 Present+ Thierry 14:02:55 Present+ Mike 14:03:19 Topic: This Meeting 14:04:24 Nigel: We have TPAC, IMSC, TTML, I don't know if we will cover WebVTT and HDR in PNG. 14:04:40 Glenn: I can only stay for 1 hour today, so TTML first would be better. Same will be true 14:04:47 .. throughout July and early August. 14:05:14 Nigel: I'm not going to be present on 17th and 24th August. 14:05:37 .. Any other business or specific points anyone wants to make sure we cover? 14:05:42 group: [silence] 14:06:08 Present+ Pierre 14:06:20 Pierre: I only have about 1 hour today. 14:06:34 Topic: TTML 14:06:59 Nigel: We have to think about next steps for TTML - we have comms for the wide review, 14:07:15 .. TTML1 3rd Ed. perhaps and continuing on the open issues on TTML2. 14:07:43 Topic: TTML2 WR Outgoing communications 14:08:04 Glenn: It was good to see Thierry's draft call for wide review. I'm going to read that and 14:08:36 .. maybe suggest a summary of changes since TTML1. 14:08:39 Thierry: +1 14:08:56 Nigel: +1. I think I've already done it and we've discussed it Glenn. but I haven't found it yet. 14:09:04 .. I'll take the action to find that and add it to the text. 14:09:27 Glenn: My focus on TTML now is to resolve the outstanding issues including the previous 14:09:39 .. issues reported by Richard. The ones that predated Richard's comments I'm probably 14:09:53 .. going to prioritise a little higher since they have been lingering for a while. The TTML1 14:10:09 .. - some of the issues on TTML2 require resolving TTML1 issues so they will naturally get 14:10:21 .. addressed in that process too, mostly. A few months back I had already tweaked the TTML1 14:10:31 In addition to the features introduced in IMSC1 and generally refining TTML1 features, it adds support for East Asian languages, enables stereoscopic 3D, and details the mapping to HTML and CSS. Glenn Adams (Skynav) is the editor of TTML2. 14:10:44 https://www.w3.org/2016/01/emmyawardttml.html.en 14:11:17 Glenn: ED in GitHub to make use of the new format, and I had put some effort into preparing that. 14:11:48 .. The current ED of TTML1 says 3rd Ed. and is mainly in the new format, maybe needs 14:12:02 .. some more tweaking. 14:12:23 Nigel: As far as I recall we agreed the approach to all the TTML1 issues, so it should be 14:12:37 .. straightforward to process them. 14:13:04 Glenn: Yes the only one I need to look at is the one raised by Pierre about region resolutoin. 14:13:11 s/oin/ion 14:13:38 .. I need to convince myself that it won't break anything. 14:14:07 Pierre: This is what happens if you associate say a div with region1 and a child p with region2. 14:14:10 Nigel: Thank you! 14:14:36 Nigel: OK that sounds like it needs some more thought before we can discuss it. 14:14:48 Nigel: Going back to the comms on TTML2. 14:15:18 .. Thierry, you just posted some text above - was there more? 14:15:24 https://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/docs/TTML-Profiles.html 14:15:39 Thierry: We drafted this for the Emmy press release, and there's something in the page linked above. 14:16:24 i/.. I need to convince/-> https://github.com/w3c/ttml1/issues/194 Ambiguous definition for determination of descendant region identifier. #194 14:17:39 Nigel: I'm pretty sure Glenn and I worked on some wording, I need to go and find it. 14:17:50 Thierry: I recall that, but it looks like it didn't go into the spec, that paragraph. 14:18:00 Nigel: Okay I'll do some archaeology. 14:18:11 Glenn: We added the subsection that enumerates the high level syntactic changes. 14:18:39 Thierry: If I recall, it was after TPAC 2016. 14:19:25 Nigel: If everyone could read Thierry's draft and feed back on the reflector that would be helpful. 14:19:41 .. Are there any groups to whom we need to customise our message? 14:20:03 .. For example SMPTE. If a general message works that would be good. 14:20:10 Glenn: I think we should use a general message. 14:21:04 Mike: I can't off the top of my head think of any specific messages for particular organisations. 14:22:19 Nigel: Thierry, when we've agreed this text please could you send those out based on the 14:22:57 .. liaison addressees we used for IMSC 1.0.1 which were all BCCed to member-tt and CCed 14:23:09 .. to team-liaisons? 14:23:13 Thierry: Yes, will do. 14:23:17 Nigel: Thank you 14:23:24 Thierry: I'll wait for the go-ahead on the final text. 14:24:21 Nigel: By the way, for the minutes I want to note that we published the WD for WR on June 30. 14:24:36 .. Thanks Glenn for making the last changes to get that out by our deadline. 14:25:44 Topic: TTML next steps. 14:26:14 Nigel: Glenn, are you going to work on TTML1 3rd Ed first as a precursor to TTML2? 14:26:27 Glenn: That wasn't my plan specifically, it's mainly to knock off the TTML2 issues, some of 14:26:50 .. which involves resolving TTML1 issues in 1 3rd Ed. I'll be driven by TTML2 issues rather 14:26:53 .. than TTML1 issues. 14:27:08 .. In the next 2-3 months I intend to make good progress on both fronts. 14:27:37 Nigel: And the next thing we'll need thinking ahead to CR is some exit criteria and test 14:27:39 .. suites. 14:27:51 Glenn: The issue of creating a formal test suite for TTML2 is something we haven't really 14:27:55 .. taken up yet. 14:28:05 Nigel: True, I just want to flag up that we will need it. 14:28:41 Nigel: We also will need to think about implementations - our work implementing the audio 14:28:51 .. features is going well so we may be able to generate some test material for that too. 14:30:18 Topic: TTML issues 14:30:43 Nigel: I just want to raise that we noticed a couple of things that need fixing in the HDR appendix 14:30:50 .. so I just opened an issue and a pull request. 14:32:16 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/398 Remove HLG HDR step 8 superscript 5b #398 14:32:28 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/397 Error in HLG HDR appendix step 8 #397 14:32:57 Nigel: I also made some formatting changes to put mathematical expressions in code blocks 14:33:00 .. rather than just body text. 14:33:17 .. I've assigned Pierre as a reviewer there, though obviously anyone might want to look. 14:34:32 Nigel: I think I've taken an action from someone outside the group to feed in a point about 14:34:45 .. quantisation in the PQ section, which needs to use narrow range signal not full range. 14:35:03 Pierre: I've not heard that feedback before. 14:35:08 Nigel: Ok I'll raise the issue then. 14:35:41 Topic: IMSC 14:35:49 Nigel: Thierry please could you explain about the transition to CR? 14:36:03 Thierry: I have sent the transition request to the Director CC plh last Friday and I was 14:36:14 .. expecting a response on Friday or Monday but on Monday I got the response that they 14:36:34 .. had not had the time to process the transition request - to do with 4th July and the EME 14:36:52 .. work, so Philippe said he would give us a response tomorrow. Depending on the time 14:37:03 .. I get the response it will be published on Tuesday or Thursday, because I need to send 14:37:17 .. it to the Webmaster 2 days in advance. That's very unfortunate because it seemed like an 14:37:28 .. easy decision, with very few comments, but I can't do much about it. 14:37:38 .. Everything was ready, the spec is already in TR. 14:37:55 Nigel: Do we have to edit the spec due to the publication date change? 14:38:07 Thierry: Yes I will have to move it to the final destination and then change the end date 14:38:35 .. of the CR, from Aug 6 to whatever it is, 11th or 13th, as well as the publication date on 14:38:39 .. the top of the document. 14:38:55 .. It's pending an email from plh now, and I'll let you know as soon as there is a response. 14:39:35 Pierre: Thierry, if you can let me know the exact changes made to /TR so I can reflect them 14:39:39 .. in the Editor's draft please? 14:39:50 Thierry: 3 things: the URI, the pub date and the end of review date. 14:40:06 Pierre: I understand, just let me know the new values and I'll reflect it. 14:40:19 .. I try to keep GitHub matching exactly what is published. 14:40:25 Thierry: I will, I'm sorry about that. 14:41:32 Nigel: The other thing I wanted to raise on IMSC 2 is that we need to start thinking about 14:41:43 .. the scope and requirements of IMSC 2 so we know what it will look like, and maybe 14:42:06 .. publish something with a time-limited review period so that we can make sure all the 14:42:22 .. inputs are gathered and we have something like a requirements document to refer to. 14:42:31 Pierre: I've begun working on this and there's the wiki page also. 14:42:34 Nigel: Great, thank you. 14:42:57 Topic: HDR in PNG 14:43:02 Nigel: I think there's been some progress here. 14:43:09 Pierre: I've not had time to process Chris's feedback. 14:43:25 Nigel: Understood. It looks mostly positive, so it may allow us to release the block on 14:43:30 .. publishing the note. 14:44:11 Topic: WebVTT review feedback 14:44:25 Nigel: David's obviously not on the call, but just to reiterate that there is a request for the WG 14:44:48 .. to review and hopefully approve the CG's dispositions. 14:45:07 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebVTT_Wide_Review WebVTT Wide review wiki page 14:45:16 Topic: TPAC 2017 14:45:35 action-497? 14:45:36 action-497 -- Nigel Megitt to Invite csswg to joint meeting at tpac 2017, with list of topics. -- due 2017-06-15 -- OPEN 14:45:36 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/497 14:45:50 Nigel: I began to look at this and yet again, with apologies Dae, I failed to find the list of 14:46:04 .. CSS issues we want to discuss, that you put together Dae. 14:46:13 pal has joined #tt 14:46:59 Dae: Is it the IMSC 2 wiki page? 14:47:07 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/wiki/TTML2-features-for-inclusion-in-IMSC2 TTML2 features for inclusion in IMSC2 14:47:37 Dae: I edited it to add my transform proposals, in #218 14:47:46 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/218 First Pass at IMSC2 to CSS Fallback #218 14:47:51 Nigel: Ah ok thank you. 14:48:34 Nigel: One of my motivations for raising this aside from the issue is that the TAG offered 14:48:46 .. to assist with facilitating the meeting with CSSWG and they are coming to London in a 14:49:02 .. few weeks, so I plan to meet them then and hope to discuss this general issue, of CSS 14:49:09 .. support for styling needed for subtitles and captions. 14:49:39 .. I'll collate this information ahead of that meeting and send it through. 14:50:49 Nigel: Dae, your helpful comment on imsc#218 is dependent on ttml2#254 and ttml2#240. 14:51:03 .. Now that ttml2#240 is closed do you want to have a look at the impact on textEmphasis? 14:51:05 Dae: Sure. 14:51:49 Nigel: Since we did that back in March we have added fillLineGap so that obviously needs 14:51:51 .. to be added. 14:52:01 Pierre: Also linePadding and multiRowAlign, neither of which is supported by CSS. 14:52:03 Nigel: Thank you! 14:52:21 Pierre: Also I'm going to post a link to a question posed by Tab Atkins to the CSS mailing list back in 2015. 14:52:32 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Sep/0077.html 14:52:36 Pierre: I've never seen it answered and I think it's relevant because it deals with the inner workings 14:52:43 .. of XSL-FO and CSS. 14:52:57 .. There's some interesting behaviour, where UAs seem to behave differently from the spec. 14:53:03 .. It's been a real issue to deal with this. 14:53:28 .. It's related to whitespace collapse and deletions before line breaks. UAs treate line breaks 14:53:43 .. very differently depending on if they occur because of a
or a linefeed character. 14:54:02 .. I ran into it but it looks like Tab Atkins ran into it earlier. It deals with the basic processing 14:54:08 .. in CSS and also impacts TTML. 14:54:53 .. In a nutshell, if you put a space before a
specifically in a span that is a sibling of a br, 14:55:00 .. then that space does not get removed. 14:55:14 .. Chrome does not delete that space for instance. 14:55:31 Glenn: The only way you know if it is there is if there's some border or background? 14:55:34 Pierre: Exactly. 14:55:50 Glenn: I'm pretty sure XSL-FO would need that space to be deleted at the end of the line 14:56:00 .. for the purpose of backgrounds etc... Hmm maybe! 14:56:05 Pierre: Here's the codepen: 14:56:08 https://codepen.io/palemieux/pen/PjeKyq 14:56:45 glenn has joined #tt 14:57:17 https://codepen.io/palemieux/pen/PjeKyq 14:57:29 Pierre: The space being visible or not can affect line height and have other weird effects. 14:58:33 .. The reason it is a bug is pretty obvious - if the space is outside the span, as a node between 14:58:46 .. the sibling span and the br then it is deleted. So the whitespace removal algorithm might 14:58:59 .. be dumb and operate before the entire line is built. 14:59:18 Glenn: I remember seeing this before and other people have recognised there's some 14:59:29 .. subtlety here. Firefox does not put the space in. 14:59:43 Pierre: And Edge does. 15:00:00 Glenn: Firefox tried to do what IE did so I guess IE did it the way Firefox does it now. 15:00:15 Pierre: From the CSS spec I see no reason why the space should be retained. From an XSL 15:00:31 .. and a CSS perspective it should make no difference if the space is in or out of a span. 15:00:47 Glenn: I agree, unless it were a non breaking space or an em space or something. Regular 15:00:54 .. white space should not appear. 15:01:09 Pierre: To complicate this, Andreas has been running test suites based on XSL processors 15:01:26 .. and at least in the processor he has used that space does show up. 15:01:39 Glenn: I can see why this might be a problem when you are trying to get HTML/CSS to render 15:01:43 .. linePadding for example. 15:01:50 Pierre: Or anything with a background. 15:03:27 Nigel: I'll gather the existing stuff together and figure out where to put it then share it 15:03:39 .. for review before sending it to TAG and CSSWG. 15:04:22 Nigel: Thierry please could you create a TPAC wiki page like we have had in previous years? 15:04:34 Thierry: Yes, add an action please. 15:05:10 ACTION: Thierry Create a TTWG wiki page like in previous years 15:05:11 Created ACTION-499 - Create a ttwg wiki page like in previous years [on Thierry Michel - due 2017-07-13]. 15:05:53 Nigel: Okay, we've covered all our agenda points, so let's adjourn. Thanks everyone! [adjourns meeting] 15:06:01 rrsagent, make minutes 15:06:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/06-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:19:27 s/back in 2015./back in 2015: 15:20:10 s|https://codepen.io/palemieux/pen/PjeKyq| 15:20:59 rrsagent, make minutes 15:20:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/06-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:23:41 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:23:43 rrsagent, make minutes 15:23:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/06-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:25:56 Zakim has left #tt 17:17:49 tmichel has joined #tt 20:16:36 tmichel has joined #tt