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15:38:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/06/26-pwg-irc
15:38:58 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing WG Weekly telco
15:39:06 <ivan> rrsagent, set draft public
15:39:06 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'set draft public', ivan.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:39:16 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:39:25 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
15:40:06 <ivan> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/CADExNBNis+iwd8L6p-XXfxU1C3Kp=FbhcAbA_8S=a-RzMSaG7w@mail.gmail.com
15:40:21 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: agenda call 2017-06-26: http://www.w3.org/mid/CADExNBNis+iwd8L6p-XXfxU1C3Kp=FbhcAbA_8S=a-RzMSaG7w@mail.gmail.com
15:40:57 <ivan> Regrets: George, TimCole, Yuri_Khramov, RickJ, Marisa_DeMeglio, taftman, nick, mikebaker, duga, vlad
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15:47:52 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
15:49:45 <wolfgang> Hi to all of you!
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15:55:10 <mateus-teixeira> mateus-teixeira has joined #pwg
15:56:47 <wolfgang> Is webex DPUB-IG already running? The option to join the meeting is still inactive.
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15:58:19 <cmaden21> present+ Chris_Maden
15:58:31 <tzviya> present+
15:58:42 <wolfgang> * oh yes, you are absolutely right, it say Monday 3. July 2017 ???
15:58:57 <wolfgang> *s /say/says
15:59:05 <cmaden21> I joined by phone OK. No one else seems to be there, though.
15:59:14 <laudrain> present+
15:59:28 <ivan> present+
15:59:46 <mattg> present+
15:59:54 <mateus-teixeira> present+
16:00:11 <mateus-teixeira> what's the webex password?
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16:04:18 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:04:18 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose rkwright
16:04:54 <ivan> scribe: rkwright
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16:05:29 <pkra> present+ pkra
16:05:33 <ivan> Topic: minutes approvals
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16:05:46 <ivan> q+
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16:06:04 <tzviya> ack iv
16:06:21 <ivan> Regrets+ Avneesh
16:06:28 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2017/06/12-dpub-minutes.html
16:06:28 <rkwright> Minutes accepted
16:06:44 <ivan> Topic: moving to gotomeetings
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16:07:57 <rkwright> ivan: Despite universal lover for WebEx, should we accept offer from Laurent to use EDRLab's GoToMeeting?
16:08:10 <rkwright> Dave:  What about accessibility?
16:08:50 <rkwright> Ivan: If we are only using it for voice then there is no issue.  George and Avneesh concur.
16:09:30 <rkwright> Tzviya: We will lose the ability to call out but that's probably OK
16:09:49 <leonardr> leonardr has joined #pwg
16:09:51 <rkwright> ... Need to have a host on the call.
16:09:53 <ivan> resolution: move to Gotomeeting
16:09:56 <leonardr> present+ Leonard
16:09:58 <leonardr> q+
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16:10:25 <leonardr> q-
16:10:34 <rkwright> Consensus: We will try GTM next time
16:10:58 <rkwright> Item: Manifest TF Kickoff
16:11:08 <leonardr> q+
16:11:12 <ivan> topic: Manifest TF Kickoff
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16:12:34 <laurentlemeur> present+
16:12:39 <garth> q?
16:12:47 <dauwhe> q+
16:12:51 <rkwright> garth: Need a draft of what is in the manifest
16:12:56 <garth> ack leonardr
16:13:26 <garth> Sorry!
16:14:15 <rkwright> leonard: One of the points of contention was whether the manifest at the WP was necessary and required.  Now feel that we do really need a manifest.
16:14:37 <ivan> q+
16:15:06 <rkwright> ... One caution is that what we define for the WP manifest may not be exactly the same as a manifest for PWP but time will inform us.
16:15:06 <ivan> Chair: Garth, Tzviya
16:15:50 <rkwright> garth:  Agrees with this but disappointed that conflict is now reduced
16:15:51 <laurentlemeur> q+
16:15:54 <garth> ack dauwhe
16:16:22 <rdeltour> q+
16:16:51 <rkwright> dave: Need to be careful here.  The name manifest is somewhat loaded.  Need to think carefully about what is different between a WP and an ordinary website
16:17:31 <garth> ack ivan
16:17:43 <rkwright> ... Need to think carefully about what the manifest is and its relationship to the resources, etc.
16:18:00 <rkwright> Ivan is very quiet
16:18:13 <leonardr> q+
16:18:55 <leonardr> it's not about the information (as a concept), but about the implementation (format)
16:19:23 <Hadrien> +1 to what Ivan just said
16:19:42 <rkwright> ivan: Need to be careful about the similarities and differences between WP and PWP's manifest structure.  They probably  should be very similar.  Perhaps the PWP is a superset?
16:19:50 <tzviya> +1 to Ivan
16:20:15 <garth> q?
16:20:17 <dauwhe> q+
16:20:19 <rkwright> garth: Are there external "manifests" to which we will need to conform?
16:20:21 <ivan> ack laurentlemeur
16:20:30 <garth> Bill’s email: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aZD21bbtkwtznRM_g-qJJjFDLxWNT7gqcLVdP2HXc4E/edit?usp=sharing
16:20:35 <leonardr> +1 to @garth about other things to conform to...
16:21:07 <garth> q?
16:21:34 <rkwright> laurent: We should focus on the set of the requirements in the near term.  Simpler is better.  THerefore in favor of WP and PWP being similar or the same.
16:21:35 <garth> ack rdeltour
16:21:47 <tzviya> Bill's email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2017Jun/0043.html
16:21:47 <ivan> Alternative URI for Bill's email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2017Jun/0043.html :-)
16:22:04 <garth> (Ivan’s source is better!)
16:22:09 <garth> q?
16:22:14 <garth> ack leonardr
16:22:14 <ivan> ack leonardr
16:22:18 <rkwright> romain: Agree that we should be careful and review requirements.
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16:22:56 <tzviya> q+
16:23:26 <laurentlemeur> plus I think that from requirements we must move to data model, only then to a serialization format.
16:23:39 <Hadrien> for Web Packaging, it seems that they're moving away from using the concept and term manifest btw
16:23:44 <rkwright> leonard: Agree that we should review requirements first.  Also, not thrilled with profiles of the manifests, but we will need to review other technologies that might intersect
16:23:47 <garth> acl dauwhe
16:23:50 <Hadrien> and their use case is completely different
16:23:56 <tzviya> ack d
16:24:14 <ivan> q+
16:24:39 <BillMcCoy> present+ BillMcCoy
16:24:42 <mateus-teixeira> q+
16:25:22 <rkwright> dave: Need to be careful looking at other manifests and not be unduly influenced by other technologies.  We don't want to put too much in it that isn't needed.
16:26:27 <dauwhe> +1
16:26:29 <mateus-teixeira> +1 to needing a definition of manifest
16:26:31 <ivan> +1
16:26:36 <garth> ack tzviya
16:26:39 <rkwright> tzviya: We need to be careful about using terms like manifest and profiles.  They mean different things to different people.
16:26:57 <garth> ack ivan
16:26:58 <laurentlemeur> +1 for defining manifest precisely
16:27:24 <wolfgang> *+1 we need a definition of the manifest in terms of its function for WP/PWP
16:27:49 <dauwhe> q+
16:28:31 <rkwright> ivan: There are several groups at W3C who also working on "manifests" so it would be good to 1) define what a manifest means to us and 2) initiate a conversation with other W3C groups who have manifests (Web Manifest and Web Packaging)
16:28:35 <garth> ack mateus-teixeira
16:29:38 <garth> ack dauwhe
16:29:53 <rkwright> mateus: Agree that we need to consult with other groups so we don't duplicate effort.  The presentation point discussed in NYC is relevant here.
16:29:59 <laurentlemeur> q+
16:30:27 <garth> Should we call it “OPF file?”   :-)
16:30:41 <rkwright> dave: Still concerned about the use of the word "manifest"
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16:31:19 <Hadrien> can't we just discuss what we need in there, no matter the term that we use?
16:31:25 <garth> q?
16:31:33 <rkwright> ... the WebPub manifest is nothing like our concept of a manifest.  Need to clearly specify what it IS
16:31:34 <clapierre> present+
16:31:59 <ivan> q+
16:32:29 <rkwright> garth: Agree that we need to examine our use-cases and requirements
16:32:32 <leonardr> q+
16:33:13 <garth> q?
16:33:15 <tzviya> input document. PWP Use Cased from IG: https://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/
16:33:16 <rkwright> ... Need to define the minimum needs we have, e.g. resources, reading order, etc. before we examine how to implement t
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16:34:08 <garth> ack laudrain
16:34:19 <BillMcCoy> q+
16:34:20 <ivan> ack laurentlemeur
16:34:21 <garth> acl laurentlemeur
16:34:35 <ivan> present+ BillMcCoy
16:35:51 <rkwright> laurent: Need to define by EOD what the action plan is. Don't think we need to create a new word for the manifest  Then we need to delineate the requirements.
16:35:51 <leonardr> FWIW: of the 25 requirements in the document @tzviya pointed to, 15 of them are related to "manifest"
16:36:22 <garth> ack ivan
16:36:32 <rkwright> ivan: Let's decide for ourselves to use the word manifest which contains the necessary information to describe the WP
16:37:27 <garth> ack leonardr
16:37:43 <rkwright> leonard: of the 25 requirements in the document @tzviya pointed to, 15 of them are related to "manifest"
16:38:08 <rkwright> ...  We need to review those and try to prune it down to the essential ones.
16:38:39 <leonardr> I am happy to provide a starting point list in email to work from...
16:38:57 <tzviya> q+
16:39:08 <garth> ack BillMcCoy
16:39:22 <rkwright> ivan: Almost fully agree with leonard exxcept that we should work on the pruning/deliberation via email prior to the next meeting.
16:39:37 <ivan> s/exxecpt/except/
16:40:12 <garth> q?
16:40:20 <rkwright> billm: Need to bear in mind the external consumers of our specs as that is a much larger group than we.
16:41:11 <pkra> Captain Manifest!
16:41:35 <garth> Definition: A user agent is any software that retrieves, renders and facilitates end user interaction with Web content, or whose user interface is implemented using Web technologies.
16:42:00 <garth> (so I do think we may need to be a bit broarder)
16:42:06 <rkwright> tzviya:  Agree with Bill.  Need to move on so let Dave be the "captain" of manifest work .  If anyone wants to work with Dave, please contact him.
16:42:55 <ivan> +1 to Dave
16:42:57 <rkwright> dave: Will open some github issues to start the process.
16:42:59 <garth> q?
16:43:04 <garth> ack tzviya
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16:43:58 <ivan> Topic: short names for documents
16:44:38 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2017Jun/0010.html
16:44:52 <rkwright> tzviya:  We had many good suggestions for the short name.
16:45:03 <ivan> proposed: use wpub and pwpub
16:45:34 <rkwright> ...  looks like wpub  and pwpub are the winners.
16:46:00 <leonardr> not thrilled with peeweepub pronunciation - but don't have anything better :)
16:46:10 <rkwright> Hard to hear ivan...
16:46:13 <leonardr> thanks!
16:46:20 <Hadrien> q+
16:46:21 <ckpowell> peeweepub will have to be small...
16:46:31 <tzviya> ack h
16:46:37 <leonardr> @ckpowell - ugh!
16:47:06 <rdeltour> "web-pub" is certainly easier to pronounce
16:47:49 <rdeltour> q+
16:47:54 <tzviya> ack rd
16:47:56 <ivan> ack Hadrien
16:48:06 <rkwright> hadrien:  The proposed names in another language (e.g. Francais) could be an issue
16:48:23 <rdeltour> the shortname could even be just "pub", right?
16:48:37 <garth> q?
16:48:42 <rkwright> romain:  Does it matter?  It's just the short name.
16:50:38 <rkwright> ivan:  It is true, this is only for the github repo and the URL
16:50:53 <garth> q?
16:50:55 <ivan> resolved: use wpub and pwpub
16:53:24 <rkwright> ivan: Reminder: we plan to have a summer hiatus.  Actual dates TBD
16:53:32 <BillMcCoy> BillMcCoy has left #pwg
16:53:35 <Hadrien> pee wee is my new BFF
16:53:49 <leonardr> enjoy your holidays...
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16:54:18 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:54:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/26-pwg-minutes.html ivan
16:54:30 <ivan> zakim, bye
16:54:30 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been wolfgang, Chris_Maden, tzviya, laudrain, ivan, mattg, mateus-teixeira, rdeltour, Garth, toshiakikoike, dauwhe, rkwright, pkra,
16:54:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg
16:54:33 <Zakim> ... Hadrien, Bill_Kasdorf, Leonard, laurentlemeur, BillMcCoy, clapierre
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16:54:54 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:54:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items