00:04:45 rkwright has joined #pwg 00:10:29 dauwhe has joined #pwg 00:11:06 dauwhe_ has joined #pwg 00:18:48 garth has joined #pwg 01:29:45 toshiaki-koike has joined #pwg 01:53:46 dauwhe has joined #pwg 02:23:29 dauwhe_ has joined #pwg 02:31:19 dauwhe has joined #pwg 03:07:34 dauwhe has joined #pwg 03:35:02 toshiaki-koike has joined #pwg 03:43:09 jun_gamo_ has joined #pwg 07:02:29 Zakim has left #pwg 10:16:24 rkwright has joined #pwg 10:38:17 BillMcCoy has joined #pwg 11:21:10 BillMcCoy has joined #pwg 12:02:13 duga has joined #pwg 12:31:01 rkwright has joined #pwg 12:38:47 ivan has joined #pwg 12:40:14 Zakim has joined #pwg 12:40:25 rrsagent, set log public 12:40:44 Meeting: Publishing BG, IG, & WG Joint F2F, 2nd day 12:41:03 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/June_2017_F2F#Second_Day 12:41:09 Chair: Tzviya, Garth 12:41:19 ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/June_2017_F2F#Second_Day 12:41:49 leonardr has joined #pwg 12:42:04 present+ Leonard 12:48:39 cristina has joined #pwg 12:50:09 Avneesh has joined #pwg 12:50:42 dauwhe has joined #pwg 12:52:54 Makoto has joined #pwg 12:53:09 mattg has joined #pwg 12:53:40 Has the WebEx meeting been cancelled? 12:57:30 clapierre has joined #pwg 12:59:38 tzviya has joined #pwg 12:59:45 tzviya has joined #pwg 12:59:48 present+ 12:59:54 present+ 13:00:08 present+ 13:00:12 present+ 13:00:12 jun_gamo has joined #pwg 13:00:13 present+ 13:00:16 present+ 13:00:17 present+ Avneesh 13:00:17 duga has joined #pwg 13:00:18 present+ dauwhe 13:00:22 present+ 13:00:23 Dan_Sanicola has joined #pwg 13:00:23 present+ 13:00:25 rdeltour has joined #pwg 13:00:30 mateus-teixeira has joined #pwg 13:00:30 present+ 13:00:31 present= 13:00:35 Micah has joined #pwg 13:00:36 Present+ 13:00:42 toshiaki-koike has joined #pwg 13:00:43 RickJ has joined #pwg 13:00:50 present+ 13:00:56 present+ 13:00:57 Rachel has joined #pwg 13:01:04 fchasen has joined #pwg 13:01:08 garth has joined #pwg 13:01:09 Present+ 13:01:13 zakim, who is here? 13:01:13 Present: Dan_Sanicola, mateus-teixeira, RickJ, Micah 13:01:14 On IRC I see garth, fchasen, Rachel, RickJ, toshiaki-koike, Micah, mateus-teixeira, rdeltour, Dan_Sanicola, duga, jun_gamo, tzviya, clapierre, mattg, Makoto, dauwhe, Avneesh, 13:01:14 ... cristina, leonardr, Zakim, ivan, rkwright, astearns, bigbluehat, RRSAgent 13:01:17 Present+ 13:01:19 Present+ 13:01:23 chair: tzviya 13:01:41 liisamk has joined #pwg 13:01:44 present+ 13:01:48 BillMcCoy has joined #pwg 13:01:48 present+ 13:02:03 topic: web package 13:02:15 scribenick: George 13:02:15 scribe: george 13:02:16 present+ BillM 13:02:21 Has the WebEx meeting been cancelled? 13:02:30 takeshi has joined #pwg 13:02:52 Present+ 13:03:34 scribe: clapierre 13:04:06 Leonard: Packaging on web spec with 4 changes 13:04:22 slides https://www.dropbox.com/s/qyzc96c1unpt6kq/Web%20Package.pdf?dl=0 13:04:23 … index of content that enables local fetching in Random access. 13:04:34 … offline access and faster processing 13:04:51 … sub processing, different orig 13:05:21 George has joined #pwg 13:05:40 … removed something "idea of fragment identifiers" CFI's refer to sub resources. How do we find something in a package # something. 13:05:56 present+ George 13:06:59 fchasen_ has joined #pwg 13:07:09 … identified 5 use cases 1. Local Sharing. bluetooth wifi, etc. 2. Snapshot a page or site, no standard for doing this "web archives". 3. Signed applications PWA's chrome extention APK on android send this this would enable this to be signed correctly. 4. Physical web devices like beacons, store can send you info, package sent to your device. interesting use cases. 13:07:27 … amp address CDN web cache one big chunk. 13:08:22 … goals: authenticated sharing. from one origin to one person but would trace back to the original origin moving something off the web wouldn't change this. Important for streaming, over a line can be processed as it goes. 13:08:39 … multiple origins one library ref. to another JS library 13:08:48 …. Crypto agility 13:08:48 jkamata has joined #pwg 13:09:12 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pwg 13:09:25 … cross signatures. publisher may want to sign something but the distribution network can then sign. there could be unsigned content. file formate is binary 13:09:45 … you can revoke signaturess if a publisher goes out of business you can revoke access. 13:09:51 Vagner_Br has joined #pwg 13:09:53 … backwards compatibility. 13:09:59 present+ Bill_Kasdorf 13:10:58 … 4 non-goals. They were not part of the spec, but non are prohibited. store confidential data. Streamed processing regeneration. Non origin identitiy. only type of identity is only web origin web centric. Everything needs to be tied to an origin. Not included DRM. 13:12:18 … HTTP client protocol relys on request/response these are specific message and document IETF and W3C specs. just plain text. opperation get/put/post what language, who am I, and then the response comes back error code, dates, who am I and type of data coming back and then actual data. 13:13:13 … take those requests/responces and bundle them up then this becomes a web package. used existing IETF standard put together in a diffeent way. CBOR (Binary JSON) 13:14:01 … took JSON and then took that and made it into Binnary. magic header / fooder, used EMOJI's package of web and package EMOJI. 13:14:15 … Binary offsets for each item 13:15:08 … Manifest / Authenticity. Metadata URL to ORIGIN and date is manditory. Web app manifest. 13:15:38 … list of hashes to validate no changes. signing and all signatures go with it, and support for sub packages. 13:15:55 Garth: packaging on the web that we defined. 13:16:00 q+ 13:16:11 … who is working onthis? 13:16:15 see: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/NQ0deHSsRvt4BL4alk_WYVnhhvo 13:16:23 Leonard: Google. 13:16:49 "The Chromium project has started work on this sort of packaging format 13:16:49 within the W3C's WICG, at https://github.com/WICG/webpackage. We have 13:16:49 a list of use cases, some goals and explicit non-goals, and a draft 13:16:50 for the format itself. We believe the IETF is the ideal place to 13:16:50 standardize the format, and in parallel we'll specify within the W3C 13:16:50 how browsers should load it. " 13:17:33 Bill: put a link in. latest info seems to indicate that they will split this and the W3C will take the web piece. archive part going to IETF. LinkRel going to W3C. but this may look differently once split. 13:18:22 Leonard: This is currently being lead by Google and Node, portable applicaitons. Note with Electron project and NPM node packages, and self extracting archive are the two leaders. 13:18:32 Ivan: lets finish the technical piece. 13:18:58 Leonard: each of the resources defined with HTTP headers endoced in HPACK 13:19:10 … meathod scheme authority / path is our request 13:19:47 … response: status . this is the pairing. you are not limited you can add additional headers as long as you follow this .. fully extensible. 13:20:07 … manifest shows an example of JSON code 13:20:48 … SHA3/4 hashs, you define the signature algorithm you are using and the signature 13:20:52 … does this help us? 13:21:00 … in PWP EPUB4 13:21:35 … already defined and part of web standards / specs. there may be other companies who pick this up and does address the origin problem and hardest problems facing us. 13:22:18 … add some features. sub packages, combine two epubs together. useful feature and extensible metadata. 13:22:42 … big item its NOT ZIP! keep this in mind. 13:22:44 q+ 13:22:48 q? 13:23:07 ack B 13:23:11 q+ 13:23:47 Ivan: archiveal algorithm and web specific part is separate… lets say this is true. if we put archive aside, the fact of signature we may want to sign 13:24:51 … there is more to it than the packaging PWP and web packaging can benefit. Web publication should be browsers want to use web archive then web publication is done for them. 13:24:56 Sel has joined #pwg 13:25:23 … I have no idea who carries that at W3C, Is this an active work inside the W3C. 13:25:37 … I am not sure where we are because this bothers me. 13:25:59 Leonard: CG group this is coming out of WCG, it came out of the tech. 13:26:33 … this version WICG, thien this can't be published as a Rec, we could offer a place to come out as a rec. 13:26:38 q? 13:26:54 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 13:26:58 Ivan: not part of our current charter. But it still under the Web Platform WG. 13:27:11 present+ laurentlemeur 13:27:13 ack l 13:27:15 … many things are in the community group so these are the details that come out. 13:27:40 Liisa: combining EPUBs challenge, now we need another level on navigation and structure and I don't know if that is taken into account. 13:27:59 q? 13:28:02 q+ 13:28:07 ack bi 13:28:19 Leonard: no this is not covered, there is nothing that precludes this but would need to be developed. 13:29:20 ack da 13:29:25 q- 13:29:27 Bill: we could have more than one formate, and higher level stuff could apply to both. You can't put zips inside of zips, but I think we should look into this even if they do split this up and zip compatibility is important for this gorup. but we need to separate out this. 13:29:48 Ivan: we need to talk to Phillip 13:30:16 q? 13:30:18 Leonar: raise IETF may not even want to take this on. 13:30:39 https://discourse.wicg.io/t/proposal-packaging-for-the-web-signed-and-indexed/1827/13 13:30:45 s/Leonar/Leonard 13:31:14 topic: Service Workers 13:31:19 scribe: Rachel 13:31:49 Brady: service workers are a fundamental part of getting data from a webapp 13:32:24 q+ 13:32:26 ... service workers exist and we will need to use them in the js layer if you using them 13:32:50 q+ 13:33:16 ack ge 13:33:48 George: my questions might be answered by an overview but my understanding is that a service worker fetches and combines 13:34:13 Brady: if you need to find and load a jpg, it give js code a way to do this in a secure manner 13:34:21 ... for example 13:34:24 ack r 13:34:32 Rick: do we expect to require these? 13:35:33 Brady: no - its basicaly: here are the resources I want to be called for, say a picture of the sun, typically you grab a URL. THis gives the service worker a chance to say, I am going to find you the picture of the sun that you have on your desktop instead 13:36:20 ... it will store locally the resources that you need to access - when a URL is requested, the service worker grabs the info it already has instead of going to the web 13:36:40 ... it's a hook for the js 13:37:02 q+ 13:37:15 ... the open web can have a cache of data because of service workers so if you're writing a webapp you can do this easily 13:37:27 ... helpful for webapp users 13:38:06 .... other than a reading system, who would be interested in service workers? 13:38:16 Tzviya: what if I want my book offline? 13:38:23 Brady: what are you using for that 13:39:44 Ivan: if I do not want this offline always, I can have an environment where specific pages can be offline where I as a user do not have to do anything to use it in that way. I can turn off my browser/machine and the content will still be there 13:40:06 Ivan: the service worker as a technology to specify things like "I want to be offline and implement x" 13:40:12 q? 13:40:24 q+ 13:40:24 ack l 13:40:36 ... it's not the magic bullet for everything but it gives the request for offline access a possibility 13:41:09 leonard: the point brady is making is that systems have always been able to offline, service workers allow a publication to offline content 13:41:26 ack d 13:41:33 Brady: I disagree - you're just making the publication a reading system 13:41:38 q+ 13:41:56 Dauwhe: Should I show an example 13:42:11 Ivan: it makes certain requirements in our spec realistic 13:42:19 Brady: it's a footnote in the spec 13:42:31 q+ 13:42:31 ack le 13:42:42 Ivan: it gives us the tools in an open web platform 13:42:55 ack rk 13:43:26 Ric: to support Rick on this, I see it as an implementation detail but it's not something we want in the spec I think 13:44:19 dauwhe: from the broader perspective our motivation over the last few years has been can do all of these long form book like experiences and make it closer to what the web does everyday 13:44:48 jun_gamo_ has joined #pwg 13:45:46 ... one of the fundamental things that we want to do is - it's easy enough to make this experience on the web, but for service workers, if I click this save button a service worker is started up like a concierge that opens the link 13:46:28 q? 13:46:34 q+ 13:46:35 ... the service worker will intercept a request and grab what it already has and make it available to the user 13:46:56 ... reading systems can already do this but it makes it easier for experimentation 13:47:11 ack r 13:47:39 George has joined #pwg 13:47:44 q+ 13:47:47 ack i 13:47:59 Rick: given that this is the comeeting with the business group - talking about this in absence of the security piece that Leonard mentioned, publishers would not allow me to implement this without the security peice 13:48:39 Ivan: my example would be a scientific journal. Each article is a web publication and I want to read them either online or offline. Today I need to download a pdf version. 13:49:00 ... we will have to define what a web publication is 13:49:17 ... we will have to set up an environment where offline is possible 13:49:29 BRady: service workers are not a magic bullet 13:49:40 s/BRady/Duga 13:49:43 ... it has to be implemented in the reader 13:49:56 q+ 13:50:12 ... for service workers there is always a reading system involved 13:50:20 ack cl 13:50:31 dauwhe: reading system can cover a broad range 13:51:09 clapierre: in dauwhe's example there was a push button application, but you would also want a resource for (for example) sudden loss of power 13:51:30 dauwhe: google has a set of guiidelines, but there is a user consent element 13:51:44 q+ 13:52:13 q+ 13:52:17 tzviya: the average online element in a journal includes a download version - right now users do not assume that offline access is available. Right now the button needs to be there 13:52:31 q- 13:52:36 duga: you can address it with various UI solutions 13:52:56 Ric: I am struggling to see how this relates to the spec - it sounds a lot like authoring to me 13:53:06 ack rd 13:53:14 q+ 13:53:15 duga: we never put network requirements into the epub spec 13:53:27 q+ 13:53:52 q+ 13:54:23 romain: the publication, the website, and the app can be the very same thing. (??? I had trouble hearing this) 13:54:33 ack iv 13:54:48 duga: we need to make it clear that your book can be a reading system 13:56:13 Ivan: if we decided in the spec to say "you should not put js in you manifest" we may be shooting ourselves in the foot. We need a model for how this should work and be implemented. Service workers are not a unique way to do this but it will in coming years be an option for implimenting offline access so we need to be aware of it 13:57:01 ack m 13:57:09 jkamata has left #pwg 13:57:17 duga: we need to make sure we don't exclusively look at service workers. ie we shouldn't require my android has service workers 13:57:34 ack da 13:57:42 mattg: remember that browsers have limits in what they can house offline 13:58:02 dauwhe: I think we're touching on a fundamental question which is who is responsible for the experience 13:58:30 ... the publisher packages the content but then hands it off to the reading system which determines how the user interacts with it 13:58:57 ... this is different from the web experience where someone is responsible for content and the user experience for their own website 13:59:10 q? 13:59:31 ... how could we author content that could act in both contexts - both putting it into a reader and just throwing it up on the web 14:00:19 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pwg 14:00:21 duga: if you want to make a book as a website - you can do that today using browser technologies 14:00:32 present+ 14:01:16 leonard: if all content is consumed by dedicated reading systems this is fine, but if we are user browsers for access od we expect them to have the same functionalities that a reading system has 14:01:49 duga: Ivan raised the example of an article - a book that isn't a book. What about a receipt, a memo, a boarding pass - are these in scope? 14:01:49 i certainly hope so, @clapierre 14:02:20 ... are we replacing the technology that allows us to store these locally 14:02:29 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 14:03:27 JunichiYoshii has joined #pwg 14:03:31 micah: right now an epub3 could be a receipt, a boarding pass... i 14:03:39 q+ 14:03:51 q+ 14:05:24 Yoshii has joined #pwg 14:05:37 micah: do I want to use the browsers built in reading system or my own? We have a cookbook demo from hachette that you can interact with in a reading system but the controls are all screwed up - so you wouldn't want it used on a kindle. But you would use it on the Hachette website 14:05:42 q? 14:05:46 ack Bi 14:06:18 Bill_kasdorf: we should be disciplined in our terminology. Document = thing; publication = collection of things 14:06:33 ... avoid using the term document for something that has more than one file or resource 14:06:44 ... webpage is a document, but fonts are outside 14:06:54 ... publication includes the font 14:07:08 tzviya: what about a journal article 14:07:11 Yoshii_Junichi has joined #pwg 14:07:14 regrets+ pkra 14:07:18 q+ 14:07:22 Bill_kasdorf: is can be a publication 14:07:39 ack li 14:07:45 duga: you need service workers to deal with multiple elements 14:08:29 ack le 14:08:32 Liisa: part of the struggle we've seen publishers have is that we don't have access to the whole frame - running heads and pagination - we can't control. It would be nice to pull this back into the control of the publisher 14:08:36 q+ 14:08:45 tzviya: +1 Liisa 14:09:08 Yoshii_Junichi_ has joined #pwg 14:09:27 leonard: we move into the realm of author intent - the difference btwn epub and pdf is that pdf has always been an example of author intent 14:09:35 duga: unless its fxl 14:10:07 q? 14:10:10 ack d 14:10:12 leonard: the philosophical position of piublisher/author intent over user control/user intent is something we'll need to continue 14:10:19 q+ 14:10:47 dauwhe: responding to Liisa and leonard this is a fundametal problem between the author and the user - sometimes authors do things that aren't great for the user 14:10:51 ack ge 14:11:15 george: I have a concern about a variety of user interfaces that I am going to need to use 14:11:48 ... if I was a college student with ten interfaces to learn it would be a nightmare 14:12:13 duga: sw gives us the ability to create one reading experience 14:12:46 ... the reality of the unique reading systems is that service workers are as hard to write as apps - publishers have pushed back on the effort here 14:12:51 q? 14:12:57 q 14:13:02 q+ 14:13:07 Junichi_Yoshii has joined #pwg 14:13:09 q+ 14:13:18 ack ga 14:13:18 ... my feelingis that we won't see 10 million reading system, but 10 reading systems because of the effort involved 14:13:37 ... this spec won't change the effort publishers want to put into this 14:14:00 q+ 14:14:28 garth: disagrees with Liisa about level of control author/publisher needs 14:14:47 Liisa: I don't want control over everything, I want some though 14:14:49 q+ 14:15:32 garth: I understand that but I think the last thing we should give publishers control of is pagination 14:15:52 q? 14:16:01 @dauwhe, is that circular? 14:16:34 q? 14:16:34 q- 14:16:40 everyone: argues about page breaks which has nothing to do with service workers 14:16:59 ack BillMcCoy 14:18:02 billmccoy: ther emay be some reading sustems that are a large percentage of the usage but if we're successful there will be many publishers that want to create their own reading systems 14:18:12 q? 14:18:40 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 14:18:51 ... the answer is that the scope of the wg is broad, and we can use the pdf reading systems as an example 14:19:06 +! 14:19:26 though not a great acronym 14:19:39 ack Rachel 14:21:19 Rachel: publisher control and unique required reading systems are HUGELY important to educational publisher 14:22:05 Topic: why content producers provide all the data? 14:22:59 q+ 14:23:16 garth: dauwhe said 'why am I as a content producer' providing all this data that the reading system could understand itself. ie a manifest. I said, that's insanity: you need reading order. I'm jsut curious about what people think about this manifest need. 14:23:23 q+ 14:23:30 q+ 14:23:34 q+ 14:23:36 q+ 14:23:37 ack dauwhe 14:23:40 q+ 14:23:52 q- 14:24:38 dauwhe: one way to summarize the thought, why is it my responsibility to remember the mimetype of an open source font? as a content author, why am I worrying about the inside baseball of reading systems? I wrote a script that finds and gathers the manifest information. 14:25:03 q? 14:25:05 dauwhe: the webapp manifest is not a manifest in the traditional sense 14:25:09 ack liisamk 14:25:22 q+ 14:25:25 present+ 14:25:32 q+ 14:25:50 Liisa: I would say from a content providers perspective, it's a good way to validate what you need to maintain. What do I need to look at? 14:26:39 ... ie 1x1 pixel png file that keeps getting thrown into the manifest whether it's in the publication or not 14:26:47 q? 14:26:51 +1 what Liisa says 14:27:26 dauwhe: in that case the manifest caused the problem instead of finding one 14:28:07 ack leonardr 14:28:49 Leonardr: from a technical perspective: 1) random access - a reading system knows where to find it and gets it quickly 2) mimetypes - security benefit; when they are wrong they show potential attack 14:29:29 ... the manifest allows us to identify internal and external resources; manifest allows a change in direction 14:29:43 ack clapierre 14:29:52 dauwhe: I'm not arguing the value to reading systems, but why is it an author responsibility 14:30:22 ack duga 14:30:27 because the RS/UA can't know the intent of the author/publisher 14:30:33 jun_gamo has joined #pwg 14:30:37 clpierre: in evaluating publications I have found many extra files; echoes security issues 14:31:23 ack dauwhe 14:31:50 duga: if you don't have a manifest but you do have js - the offline experience is broken (Rachel: did I get this right @duga??) 14:32:36 Yes, if there is no manifest, we can't know all the resources that are needed if JS is used 14:32:52 (correct, as the RS can’t with accuracy, figure what’s fererenced internally or externally by JS code in a publication) 14:33:06 q? 14:33:12 q+ 14:33:17 ack ivan 14:33:22 dauwhe: maintenance point that Liisa raised - we've been through several cycles of updating the scaffolding around content without changing content. I think there is a layer of work that is not content change. We could make this easier. 14:34:42 Ivan: you guys are talking about publishers that are putting in energy to create a big book but when we talk about web publication it can be anyone, myself who is not a publisher, puts together a few pages and wants to make it available for offline use. this is the same community that makes webpages for themselves. It is essential that this is simple for that community. 14:35:38 q? 14:36:04 ... the script that turns w3c documents into epub - I didn't want the spec author to be forced to do this authoring. The need to make this simple for the authors is being lost - reading systems must take the load. 14:36:11 ack rkwright 14:43:31 takeshi_ has joined #pwg 14:47:06 weiler has joined #pwg 14:48:05 weiler - unfortunately, that is true 14:51:03 clapierre has joined #pwg 14:51:29 rdeltour has joined #pwg 14:53:20 Vagner_Br has joined #pwg 14:53:28 tzviya has joined #pwg 14:53:54 cristina has joined #pwg 14:54:09 present+ 14:54:31 scribe: rdeltour 14:55:36 fchasen has joined #pwg 14:55:59 topic: EPUB 4 and WP, hope & dreams 14:56:07 takeshi has joined #pwg 14:56:11 Topic: hopes and dreams for WP & EPUB 4 14:56:21 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 14:56:39 Bill_Kasdorf_ has joined #pwg 14:57:11 Sel has joined #pwg 14:57:37 present+ 14:59:18 dauwhe: we touched on what I wanted to talk about already 14:59:25 q? 14:59:34 present+ 14:59:40 ... remind everybody of our priority of consistuencies: users over authors over specifiers over technicl purity 14:59:50 ... not the other way around! 15:00:17 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pwg 15:00:24 q? 15:01:07 present+ 15:01:08 rachel: an additional grieve to what dave said 15:01:34 ... specs are using the language of the people writing them, rather than the language of the spec readers 15:01:42 ... plain language is extremely important 15:01:58 billk: another very important thing is examples 15:02:06 jun_gamo has joined #pwg 15:02:13 Topic: ( P)WP Security 15:02:25 tzviya: so rachel is gonna be an editor and bill will write examples :) 15:02:28 mateus-teixeira has joined #pwg 15:02:40 Slides at https://www.dropbox.com/s/dnztoypteq83xpt/PWP%20Security.pdf?dl=0 15:03:20