IRC log of wcag-act on 2017-06-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:58:17 [RRSAgent]
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13:58:17 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:58:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:58:19 [Zakim]
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13:58:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
13:58:21 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:58:22 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessibility Conformance Testing Teleconference
13:58:22 [trackbot]
Date: 19 June 2017
13:58:25 [Wilco]
13:58:31 [Wilco]
agenda+ Book and register for TPAC: Thurs-Fri is the ACT meeting
13:58:40 [Wilco]
agenda+ Survey on availability for calls
13:58:50 [Wilco]
agenda+ Pull request 94 - Merge change log with version history
13:58:55 [Wilco]
agenda+ ACT Review Process
13:59:00 [Wilco]
agenda+ Negative tests
13:59:07 [Wilco]
agenda+ Auto-WCAG Rules - create a conforming example
14:02:28 [anne_thyme]
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14:03:56 [Manoj]
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14:04:09 [MoeKraft]
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14:04:32 [Kathy]
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14:04:42 [agarrison]
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14:04:58 [agarrison]
zakim, take up first
14:04:59 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up first', agarrison
14:05:05 [shadi]
scribe: Alistair
14:05:19 [shadi]
scribenick: agarrison
14:05:24 [agarrison]
zakim, take up next
14:05:24 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Book and register for TPAC: Thurs-Fri is the ACT meeting" taken up [from Wilco]
14:05:50 [cpandhi]
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14:05:57 [agarrison]
Shadi: TPAC meeting on Thurs / Friday for this group.
14:06:21 [agarrison]
Shadi: Tech plenary is in SF in the USA.
14:06:32 [agarrison]
Shadi: Please book now.
14:06:55 [agarrison]
Shadi: Hope some of you will be able to attend.
14:07:03 [agarrison]
zakim, take up next
14:07:03 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Survey on availability for calls" taken up [from Wilco]
14:08:05 [agarrison]
Shadi: Reminder - let us know your availability.
14:08:21 [agarrison]
Shadi: Please keep it up to date.
14:08:30 [agarrison]
zakim, take up next
14:08:30 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Pull request 94 - Merge change log with version history" taken up [from Wilco]
14:09:15 [shadi]
14:09:46 [shadi]
14:09:47 [agarrison]
Shadi: Changes - versioning.
14:10:36 [agarrison]
Shadi: It could have been that we more interested in moving to a change log, rather than semantic versioning.
14:12:01 [agarrison]
Moe: Should be use a better adjective that hugh.
14:12:41 [agarrison]
AG: Hugh should be huge.
14:12:42 [Wilco_]
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14:12:52 [MoeKraft]
It is recommended that for significant changes, such as those that change the scope of a rule, a new rule is created and the old rule is deprecated.
14:13:03 [agarrison]
Shadi: Any thoughts on this.
14:13:33 [agarrison]
Shadi: Moe that looks simpler.
14:13:46 [cpandhi]
+ 1 to Moe's change
14:13:53 [agarrison]
Shadi: Kathy - changes that Moe suggested are better.
14:15:11 [agarrison]
Shadi: Alistair as you have concerns on how versioning is done, please look at that.
14:15:28 [maryjom]
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14:15:46 [agarrison]
Shadi: Any other comments.
14:16:47 [agarrison]
Alistair: I think the initial comment was people don't like versions to change to quickly.
14:17:41 [agarrison]
Shadi: In the new concept, minor changes would be added to the change list. But major changes would change the test number.
14:18:53 [maryjom]
14:19:48 [agarrison]
Anne: Would a change to the rule change, by putting in a change to the process in the test, would change the number.
14:21:22 [agarrison]
Alistair: But, what would happen if a person tests now, and then tests 3 months from now - and loads of ids have changed.
14:22:32 [agarrison]
Wilco: If you break a rule up, then you'd have to give the sub-rules a different id.
14:22:38 [cpandhi]
14:22:54 [agarrison]
Anne: What is an update and what is a significant change.
14:23:35 [agarrison]
Anne: Wilco things only really big changes should change the id; and Shadi suggests smaller changes might change the id.
14:24:24 [agarrison]
Anne: Initially the simplification is OK; but we need to be clear on when something needs a changed id number.
14:24:54 [shadi]
ack ch
14:24:56 [agarrison]
Anne: Tracking things over time is really important, so I wouldn't want to change ids too much.
14:24:59 [shadi]
ack c
14:25:34 [agarrison]
Charu: it is good to be able to have history; so we have to be clear about what would cause a significant change.
14:26:18 [agarrison]
Charu: What if it was a bug fix, would that force a new id?
14:27:14 [agarrison]
Shadi: We need a way of capturing changes to tests; and we need to properly understand "significant" in terms of something which would require a new id.
14:28:28 [agarrison]
Wilco: It seems that that section about ids is common sense. If it comes at the cost of loosing your history.
14:28:55 [agarrison]
Shadi: Sounds to me like we need more clarity in what to do.
14:29:19 [cpandhi]
14:29:26 [agarrison]
Wilco: take out the rule about create a new id if there are big changes.
14:29:28 [cpandhi]
14:29:37 [shadi]
ack c
14:30:14 [agarrison]
Charu: Issue we see in our rules. One of complaints is, a result is changed through a bug fix.
14:30:37 [agarrison]
Charu: People's reports being changed is something they don't like.
14:31:11 [agarrison]
Charu: What we do is to have a rule set. Then we release one or two rule sets per year.
14:33:34 [agarrison]
Alistair: Bug fixes in tests are a good thing.
14:33:54 [MoeKraft]
14:34:03 [agarrison]
Shadi: If you test a point x and y you don't know if the content changed; or the rule changed.
14:34:18 [agarrison]
Shadi: So we need the log.
14:34:33 [shadi]
ack m
14:34:39 [agarrison]
Shadi: You'd need to go to the change log to see if a test has changed.
14:35:05 [MoeKraft]
Significant changes, for example those that change the scope of a rule, may require the creation of a new rule and deprecation of the current rule.
14:35:07 [agarrison]
Moe: Thinking about to Wilco's suggestion. Maybe we want to soften the second paragraph.
14:35:23 [agarrison]
Moe: The change is "may"
14:35:48 [agarrison]
Moe: Its not prescriptive.
14:35:58 [agarrison]
Shadi: Thoughts.
14:36:07 [agarrison]
Wilco: I like the change.
14:37:24 [Wilco_]
+1 to example
14:37:49 [cpandhi]
+1 to example
14:37:55 [agarrison]
Alistair: With the word "may" you would need an example.
14:38:42 [agarrison]
Alistair: Example: if you split a test as you have discovered it is too broad. The two new tests would then each get a new id, and the old broad test would be deprecated.
14:39:08 [agarrison]
Shadi: Do we need an example of a minor change.
14:39:17 [agarrison]
Wilco: Don't think its necessary.
14:39:49 [agarrison]
Anne: When developers read through ACT framework they wanted more examples, and two examples when possible.
14:40:05 [agarrison]
Anne: We would like a minor change example.
14:40:31 [agarrison]
Alistair: Let the minor change example be a bug fix.
14:40:55 [agarrison]
Wilco: I'll put the major and minor examples in.
14:41:12 [agarrison]
Moe: Pull request added.
14:41:37 [agarrison]
Shadi: Any other comments.
14:41:56 [agarrison]
Shadi: Will you notify mailing lists of the changes.
14:42:10 [agarrison]
zakim, take up next
14:42:10 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "ACT Review Process" taken up [from Wilco]
14:42:15 [shadi]
14:42:32 [agarrison]
Shadi: Take a moment to look through it.
14:46:10 [agarrison]
Shadi: Have we all read it?
14:46:48 [agarrison]
Shadi: We want enough incentives so that the community starts to review their own tests.
14:47:12 [agarrison]
Shadi: You ask them to get a certain number of implementations.
14:47:54 [agarrison]
Shadi: Once the contributor can show this validation, then it is easier.
14:48:12 [agarrison]
Shadi: Basic idea behind this.
14:48:29 [agarrison]
Shadi: What do people think?
14:48:52 [agarrison]
Shadi: Is it workable, or too optimistic.
14:49:58 [agarrison]
Alistair: How do people show the rule to someone who implements it.
14:50:25 [agarrison]
Shadi: They would put the rule in the GitHub repo with a flag marked untested.
14:50:55 [agarrison]
Shadi: You keep on updating your rule in GitHub.
14:51:12 [cpandhi]
14:51:15 [agarrison]
Shadi: We have the rule, test cases and implementations.
14:52:45 [agarrison]
Alistair: What if loads of people place rules which are similar. How do they work together. Then how many rules might we expect.
14:52:56 [Wilco_]
On this point, what we discussed previously was that we might publish 'draft' rules that haven't been implemented in enough places yet, as a way to get that ball rolling
14:52:57 [shadi]
ack c
14:53:04 [agarrison]
Shadi: People would have to try to collaborate.
14:53:17 [agarrison]
Charu: In GitHub we can have beta rules.
14:54:05 [agarrison]
Charu: We could have loads of tests in there... there needs to be a way for people to comb through rules.
14:54:49 [agarrison]
Shadi: We could weed out certain tests through formats.
14:55:39 [agarrison]
Shadi: What if different companies submitted overlapping tests - they each have their reasons for having their own tests.
14:55:58 [agarrison]
Shadi - discussion would have to be peer-to-peer.
14:56:17 [agarrison]
Shadi: 4 more minutes.
14:56:56 [agarrison]
Shadi - Let's give people more time to work through this - shall we use mailing list, GitHub.
14:57:06 [agarrison]
Wilco: Let's use mailing list.
14:57:54 [agarrison]
Shadi: You could help move this forward. What would incentivise you to put rules forwards.
14:59:34 [agarrison]
Wilco: Worth us checking back with our colleagues.
15:00:01 [agarrison]
Alistair: How do we discuss the tests on GitHub.
15:00:23 [Kathy]
present+ Kathy
15:00:37 [agarrison]
Shadi: Implementations would be what we'd be interested in.
15:01:06 [agarrison]
Kathy: Our testing is different from the tests that aXe can run.
15:02:37 [agarrison]
Shadi: Either we have a group that checks rules centrally; or you try and get people to implement your rules in other tools.
15:03:38 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
15:03:38 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:03:38 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been MaryJoMueller, Kathy
15:03:46 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:03:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
15:03:47 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:03:47 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items