12:13:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #poe
12:13:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/06/19-poe-irc
12:13:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:13:07 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #poe
12:13:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
12:13:09 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
12:13:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
12:13:10 <trackbot> Date: 19 June 2017
12:13:16 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170619
12:13:20 <ivan> Chair: Ben
12:24:39 <renato> renato has joined #poe
12:27:05 <renato> trackbot, start meeting
12:27:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:27:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
12:27:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
12:27:11 <trackbot> Date: 19 June 2017
12:27:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
12:27:22 <renato> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:27:34 <renato> RRSAgent, draft minutes V2
12:27:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/19-poe-minutes.html renato
12:27:41 <simonstey> present+
12:27:53 <renato> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170619
12:27:59 <renato> present+
12:28:26 <renato> Chair: Ben
12:29:02 <ivan> present+
12:29:04 <renato> Regrets: PhilA
12:29:12 <michaelS> michaelS has joined #poe
12:33:35 <simonstey> regrets+ Sabrina
12:33:35 <Serena> Serena has joined #poe
12:33:36 <CarolineB> CarolineB has joined #poe
12:33:50 <CarolineB> present+ CarolineB
12:35:08 <Serena> present+ Serena
12:35:15 <michaelS> scribe: michaelS
12:35:16 <ivan> Chair: renato
12:35:18 <benws> benws has joined #poe
12:35:21 <ivan> scribenick: michaelS
12:35:23 <michaelS> scribenick: michaelS
12:35:32 <ivan> topic: approve minutes
12:35:37 <michaelS> topic: approve last meeting minutes
12:35:40 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170619
12:36:07 <michaelS> resolution: minutes are approved
12:36:34 <michaelS> topic: deliverables / test cases
12:36:42 <benws> present+
12:37:04 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Policy_Inference
12:37:08 <michaelS> renato: checks if test cases are defined - not yet
12:37:25 <michaelS> renato: simonstey has created some examples
12:38:28 <michaelS> renato: it is important to define how ODRL should be tested by users - and we should create test cases accordingly
12:38:39 <simonstey> +q
12:39:36 <michaelS> simonstey: we have a lot of discussions on Github - victor brought up details which need test cases
12:40:45 <michaelS> simonstey: before we can start drafting test cases we (this group) has to define what is allowed and what not
12:41:20 <benws> q+
12:41:25 <simonstey> ack simonstey
12:41:59 <benws> Another expansion?
12:42:04 <michaelS> renato: we have added to ODRL the feature of shortcuts and this makes some evaluations harder
12:42:32 <michaelS> ... does this group want to support shortcuts?
12:43:09 <simonstey> odrl:permission odrl:use
12:43:22 <simonstey> odrl:perm [ a odrl:Perm..
12:44:16 <michaelS> simonstey: showed examples of unclear modeling
12:46:05 <michaelS> renato: asked simonstey if odrl:permission odrl:use is wrong
12:47:06 <michaelS> simonstey: this model raises the assumption that odrl:use is a subclass of Rule
12:47:34 <ivan> q+
12:47:40 <simonstey> ack benws
12:47:50 <michaelS> renato: ok, then we need to stop doing that
12:48:13 <michaelS> simonstey: but the ontology allows that - we need to modify/expand the ontology
12:48:46 <ivan> q-
12:48:47 <simonstey> q?
12:48:55 <michaelS> renato: ok, then it is required to fix such issues
12:49:00 <simonstey> q+ benws
12:49:59 <simonstey> q+
12:50:04 <simonstey> ack benws
12:50:11 <michaelS> renato: suggested to have a look at https://‌www.w3.org/‌2016/‌poe/‌wiki/‌Policy_Inference
12:51:18 <michaelS> benws: suggested that it should be possible to have a local evaluation at the site of an implementer
12:51:24 <ivan> q+
12:51:48 <michaelS> ... as testing the evaluation requires human resources
12:52:24 <michaelS> simonstey: this policy inference page should be the starting point for evaluation.
12:52:32 <benws> ... implentation resource
12:53:15 <michaelS> ... should check for conflicts. and then check if permissions and prohibitions become effective
12:53:58 <michaelS> ... details of that could be driven by local interpretations
12:54:01 <simonstey> ack simonstey
12:54:03 <benws> +1
12:54:34 <michaelS> ivan: about the planing of the CR phase: who are implementers?
12:54:49 <michaelS> s/planing/planning
12:55:10 <michaelS> ... want to get a clearer picture of where we are currently?
12:55:12 <michaelS> ben
12:55:33 <simonstey> +q
12:55:51 <michaelS> benws: take the standard and check what needs to be implemented.
12:55:55 <ivan> ack ivan
12:56:13 <michaelS> ... this will apply to the evaluation of the "black boxes"
12:56:32 <michaelS> simonstey: the validator will be based on SHACL
12:57:22 <michaelS> ... for the evaluation: give a policy the output should be a set of rules which are effective
12:57:36 <michaelS> s/give/given
12:58:12 <michaelS> ivan: asked simonstey : is the validator an existing tool?
12:58:44 <renato> q+
12:59:08 <michaelS> s/validator/evaluator
13:00:33 <simonstey> ack simonstey
13:00:38 <michaelS> ivan: understands simonstey as "part of the ODRL specification needs implementation"
13:00:42 <ivan> ack simonstey
13:00:42 <ivan> ack renato
13:00:49 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Policy_Inference
13:02:12 <michaelS> renato: went over the Policy Inference document - finally a lot of expanded rules will be created
13:02:21 <michaelS> simonstey: agreed
13:03:48 <michaelS> ... a tricky detail is if a generic use is permitted and only at a lower level permissions and prohibitions "fight" against each other
13:04:20 <michaelS> renato: asked benws if his TR black boxes will create so many expanded rules
13:04:58 <michaelS> benws: the expanding is only a temporary object, only the compressed policy will be stored
13:05:03 <ivan> regrets+ victor
13:05:29 <michaelS> s/is/creates
13:05:40 <simonstey> "If a Policy has the conflict property of prohibit then any conflicting Prohibition Rule MUST override the Permission Rule and continue with the Policy as valid."
13:06:25 <michaelS> renato: asked CarolineB as implementer
13:06:43 <michaelS> CarolineB: she does not have the technical knowledge
13:06:47 <simonstey> +q
13:06:58 <michaelS> ... we create policies and other people have to read and understand it
13:06:59 <benws> q+
13:07:13 <michaelS> ... no evaluation will be done by the Copyright Hub
13:08:24 <michaelS> simonstey: re the Expanded stage of the inference page: it is only required to figure out the rules which are in effect and if conflicts come up
13:09:23 <ivan> ack simonstey
13:09:27 <ivan> ack benws
13:09:31 <michaelS> benws: important for him is if the rules associated with an asset are in a conflict
13:10:02 <michaelS> ... even if they are in different policies
13:10:39 <michaelS> renato: we have not discussed that so far
13:10:41 <ivan> q+
13:10:45 <benws> q?
13:10:50 <michaelS> benws: could be added as test case
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13:12:27 <michaelS> ivan: raises a basic question: the semantics of the common vocabulary will be a separate document in future
13:13:02 <michaelS> ... the model document is describing an RDF vocabulary without any semantics going beyond RDF and OWL features
13:13:30 <michaelS> renato: the information model document is more narrative than an ontology
13:14:27 <michaelS> ivan: what document(s) will be part of the CR - and what are the exit criteria
13:15:11 <michaelS> ... if it is only a vocab - is this what the community wants?
13:15:39 <renato> q+
13:15:41 <michaelS> ... is not happy about testing thing which are not part of the formal specs
13:15:53 <ivan> ack ivan
13:15:59 <michaelS> benws: ODRL comes with a processing model - this is very important to TR
13:16:52 <michaelS> ... TR would create a new policy based on policies received from suppliers - and this will be more than just a vocab
13:17:05 <michaelS> ivan: who will create that, who will test that?
13:17:11 <ivan> ack ivan
13:17:37 <michaelS> ren
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13:18:36 <michaelS> renato: e.g. the hierarchy of actions which may create conflicts is not defined somewhere explicitly
13:20:10 <michaelS> renato: the test case must be only based on the Information Model document
13:20:18 <michaelS> ivan: agreed to that approach
13:21:41 <michaelS> ... if something which is required in a test case does not exist in the IM then the IM is not complete
13:22:24 <michaelS> ... a CR should prove that a specification is complete
13:23:24 <michaelS> renato: would it help us to check the activities of testers and if something is missing
13:23:26 <renato> Activity Streams test cases
13:23:27 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/tree/master/test
13:24:06 <renato> simon?
13:24:07 <michaelS> simonstey you have disappeard on audio
13:24:39 <simonstey> oh
13:25:01 <michaelS> benws: if all the specs are in OWL then the IM would be sufficient. If the semantics go beyond
13:25:12 <renato> @simon nope
13:25:16 <michaelS> ... then the IM cannot define everything
13:25:39 <michaelS> ivan: sees the need of adding SHACL to the CR documents
13:25:53 <simonstey> without the evaluator yes
13:25:53 <simonstey> OWL can't tell you whether a rule is in effect or not
13:25:57 <michaelS> simonstey we still can't hear you
13:26:37 <michaelS> renato: we need a better plan for test cases
13:27:00 <michaelS> renato: invited all to join in Github and the issues discussed there
13:28:03 <simonstey> simonstey has joined #poe
13:28:17 <simonstey> internet was breaking up again
13:28:42 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:28:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/19-poe-minutes.html ivan
13:28:56 <michaelS> renato: this test case discussion should be continued at the next call
13:28:58 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
13:28:58 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
13:28:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been simonstey, renato, ivan, CarolineB, Serena, benws
13:29:06 <michaelS> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:29:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/19-poe-minutes.html michaelS
13:29:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:29:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/19-poe-minutes.html trackbot
13:29:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
13:29:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
13:29:08 <Serena> Serena has left #poe