14:24:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #vcwg
14:24:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/06/13-vcwg-irc
14:24:25 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:24:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/13-vcwg-minutes.html burn
14:24:35 <burn> rrsagent, make minutes public
14:24:35 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', burn.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:24:45 <burn> rrsagent, make logs public
14:26:05 <burn> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2017Jun/0006.html
14:40:44 <dezell> dezell has joined #vcwg
14:55:50 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #vcwg
14:55:51 <JohnTib> JohnTib has joined #vcwg
14:56:42 <burn> present+ Dan_Burnett, John_Tibbetts
14:57:42 <TallTed> present+ Ted_Thibodeau
14:58:44 <burn> present+ Nathan_George
15:00:04 <burn> Chair: Matt Stone, Dan Burnett, Richard Varn
15:00:11 <gkellogg> present+ Gregg_Kellogg
15:00:56 <burn> present+ Christopher_Allen
15:01:22 <stonematt> stonematt has joined #vcwg
15:02:03 <Charles_Engelke> Charles_Engelke has joined #vcwg
15:02:15 <ChristopherA> ChristopherA has joined #vcwg
15:02:21 <amigus> amigus has joined #vcwg
15:02:27 <burn> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:27 <Zakim> Present: Dan_Burnett, John_Tibbetts, Ted_Thibodeau, Nathan_George, Gregg_Kellogg, Christopher_Allen
15:02:40 <Colleen> Colleen has joined #vcwg
15:02:45 <dlongley> present+ Dave_Longley
15:02:57 <Charles_Engelke> present+ Charles_Engelke
15:03:01 <ChristopherA> present + ChristopherA
15:03:02 <Colleen> Present+ Colleen
15:03:10 <stonematt> present+
15:03:22 <burn> s/present +/present+/
15:03:32 <stonematt> present +
15:03:35 <amigus> Present + Adam_Migus
15:03:46 <gkellogg> zakim, who’s on the phone?
15:03:46 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, gkellogg.
15:04:13 <dezell> present+ dezell
15:04:18 <burn> s/present +/present+
15:04:32 <burn> s/present +/present+
15:04:43 <cwebber2> cwebber2 has joined #vcwg
15:04:53 <MattLarson> MattLarson has joined #vcwg
15:04:54 <amigus> Present+ Adam_Migus
15:05:00 <manu> present+ Manu_Sporny
15:05:03 <manu> present- dezell
15:05:07 <manu> present+ David_Ezell
15:05:10 <burn> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:05:10 <Zakim> Present: Dan_Burnett, John_Tibbetts, Ted_Thibodeau, Nathan_George, Gregg_Kellogg, Christopher_Allen, Dave_Longley, Charles_Engelke, Colleen, stonematt, Adam_Migus, Manu_Sporny,
15:05:13 <Zakim> ... David_Ezell
15:05:21 <manu> present- Colleen
15:05:26 <manu> present+ Colleen_Kennedy
15:05:30 <manu> present- stonematt
15:05:33 <manu> present+ Matt_Stone
15:05:35 <burn> scribenick: burn
15:05:50 <stonematt> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2017Jun/0006.html
15:05:54 <burn> Topic: Agenda review and Introductions
15:06:10 <Varn> Varn has joined #vcwg
15:06:24 <adamkccoper> adamkccoper has joined #vcwg
15:06:27 <Varn> Stone:  Reviewed agenda
15:06:30 <manu> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2017Jun/0006.html
15:06:34 <burn> scribenick: Varn
15:06:49 <Varn> Stone:  No new introductions
15:07:02 <burn> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:07:02 <Zakim> Present: Dan_Burnett, John_Tibbetts, Ted_Thibodeau, Nathan_George, Gregg_Kellogg, Christopher_Allen, Dave_Longley, Charles_Engelke, Adam_Migus, Manu_Sporny, David_Ezell,
15:07:05 <Zakim> ... Colleen_Kennedy, Matt_Stone
15:07:28 <burn> zakim, pick a victim
15:07:28 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Charles_Engelke
15:07:34 <Varn> Stone_Matt: existing participants introducing themselves one per week
15:08:12 <JoeAndrieu> JoeAndrieu has joined #vcwg
15:09:03 <Varn> Charles_Engelke: introduced himself.  he represents infotech inc in FL. They serve the construction industry. Interested in claims like bondedness, licensed, etc.
15:09:09 <cwebber2> prsent+ Chris_Webber
15:09:13 <cwebber2> present+ Chris_Webber
15:10:44 <amigus> There's more than one Adam, so I assume you meant me, burn...
15:10:51 <Varn> cwebber2:  representing spec ops for group and interested in federated identity
15:11:35 <burn> zakim, who's here?
15:11:35 <Zakim> Present: Dan_Burnett, John_Tibbetts, Ted_Thibodeau, Nathan_George, Gregg_Kellogg, Christopher_Allen, Dave_Longley, Charles_Engelke, Adam_Migus, Manu_Sporny, David_Ezell,
15:11:39 <Zakim> ... Colleen_Kennedy, Matt_Stone, Chris_Webber
15:11:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see JoeAndrieu, adamkccoper, Varn, MattLarson, cwebber2, Colleen, amigus, ChristopherA, Charles_Engelke, stonematt, JohnTib, TallTed, dezell, RRSAgent, Zakim, burn, nage,
15:11:39 <Zakim> ... gkellogg, dlehn, dlongley, robert, manu, liam
15:11:57 <liam> regrets+ Liam
15:12:22 <Varn> stonematt:  FPWD note was published. Thanks to all and yay!
15:12:31 <manu> https://w3c.github.io/vc-use-cases/
15:12:35 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat has joined #vcwg
15:12:39 <amigus> *clapping loudly*
15:12:48 <manu> Topic: WG Face to Face meeting @ TPAC 10
15:12:58 <Varn> stonematt:  reminder to all to get your hotel early as they will run out quickly
15:13:03 <burn> present+ Joe_Andrieu
15:13:33 <burn> present+ Matt_Larson
15:13:34 <Varn> stonematt:  price jumps to over $600 per night if you miss out on  the room block. group rate is under $300.
15:13:38 <Rob_Trainer> Rob_Trainer has joined #vcwg
15:14:05 <burn> present+ Richard_Varn
15:14:23 <amigus_> amigus_ has joined #vcwg
15:14:23 <burn> present+ Rob_Trainer
15:14:35 <burn> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:14:35 <Zakim> Present: Dan_Burnett, John_Tibbetts, Ted_Thibodeau, Nathan_George, Gregg_Kellogg, Christopher_Allen, Dave_Longley, Charles_Engelke, Adam_Migus, Manu_Sporny, David_Ezell,
15:14:38 <Varn> stonematt: plan to be there for Wed plenary on the 8th, VCWG will meet TH-Fr the 9-10.  We payments meeting earlier in week
15:14:39 <Zakim> ... Colleen_Kennedy, Matt_Stone, Chris_Webber, Joe_Andrieu, Matt_Larson, Richard_Varn, Rob_Trainer
15:14:40 <amigus> amigus has joined #vcwg
15:14:59 <stonematt> q?
15:15:14 <Varn> stonematt: looking for suggested joint meetings at TPAC (sp?)
15:15:36 <dezell> q+
15:15:50 <manu> q+ to suggest Privacy IG, Web Payments IG, and Web App Sec and Credential Management API... ?
15:15:52 <Varn> burn:  looking for relevant groups to build networking connections or to work on overlapping issues
15:16:07 <stonematt> q?
15:16:13 <Varn> burn:  asking for ideas and suggestions
15:16:15 <bigbluehat> present+ Benjamin_Young
15:16:31 <gkellogg> ack dezell
15:16:50 <burn> present+ Benjamin_Young
15:17:03 <Varn> dezell:  web payments will be morphing into web commerce and we should meet even though our meetings overlap
15:17:16 <stonematt> q?
15:17:41 <manu> ack manu
15:17:41 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to suggest Privacy IG, Web Payments IG, and Web App Sec and Credential Management API... ?
15:17:42 <Varn> dezell:  says the logistics will work even though on same days
15:17:55 <dezell> I think meeting at the same time makes it easier to schedule.
15:18:56 <Varn> manu:  suggested privacy interest group to show we are paying attentions, web payments ig, web applications security group for possible relationship with credential api via browser
15:19:00 <dlongley> q?
15:19:01 <burn> ACTION: chairs to contact Web Payments IG, Privacy IG, Web App Sec and Credential Management API about seeking input for TPAC and in general
15:19:37 <stonematt> q?
15:19:39 <Varn> manu:  was cheering for the warriors and lost his voice?
15:20:14 <manu> Topic: FPWD of Data Model spec
15:20:25 <burn> s/manu:  was cheering for the warriors and lost his voice?//
15:20:39 <stonematt> https://w3c.github.io/vc-data-model/
15:20:57 <manu> q+ to note only remaining PR...
15:21:08 <JoeAndrieu> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues
15:21:18 <Varn> stonematt:  next topic discuss first public working draft of the data model doc--what is blocking pub of first working draft.  asking for specifics from members
15:21:20 <amigus_> amigus_ has joined #vcwg
15:21:32 <stonematt> q?
15:21:40 <manu> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/56
15:22:45 <stonematt> manu's email:  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2017Jun/0007.html
15:22:53 <gkellogg> https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://raw.githubusercontent.com/w3c/vc-data-model/msporny-fpwd-prose-cleanup/index.html
15:23:07 <Varn> manu:  only have one remaining pull request PR 56 which reworks intro text. some new diagrams inserted and aligned language with them. More conversational tone.  sent email out to list to view latest text.  discussion on the mods ongoing.  when done with this PR we are ready for FPWD on the DM
15:23:34 <burn> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:23:34 <Zakim> Present: Dan_Burnett, John_Tibbetts, Ted_Thibodeau, Nathan_George, Gregg_Kellogg, Christopher_Allen, Dave_Longley, Charles_Engelke, Adam_Migus, Manu_Sporny, David_Ezell,
15:23:37 <Zakim> ... Colleen_Kennedy, Matt_Stone, Chris_Webber, Joe_Andrieu, Matt_Larson, Richard_Varn, Rob_Trainer, Benjamin_Young
15:23:38 <stonematt> q?
15:23:44 <stonematt> ack manu
15:23:44 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note only remaining PR...
15:24:01 <JoeAndrieu> q+
15:24:07 <Varn> manu:  some concerns on terminology.  need to hear types of changes and objections to pub if we address PR 56 and finalize that
15:24:09 <stonematt> ack JoeAndrieu
15:25:19 <Varn> JoeAndrieu:  ok on email change as it can be in a claim.  some issues on terminology.  holder is one
15:25:31 <burn> this is the time if needed before FPWD
15:26:30 <Varn> JoeAndrieu:  not sure this is before FPWD, but holder and issuer are problematical.  person using the claim may not hold it in some digital or mechanical way.
15:27:34 <Varn> JoeAndrieu:  how does someone assert control over a particular claim if not by a DID. that can correlate a person to the claim.  This relates to holder.
15:28:05 <stonematt> q+
15:28:22 <Varn> JoeAndrieu: issuer may be better as "authority" as we want to know if the one who asserted the claim is a legitimate issuer/asserter of such a claim
15:28:30 <dlongley> perhaps "author" is a little more broad than "authority" -- so as to not assume that the issuer is always acting in some "official" capacity
15:28:31 <burn> ack stonematt
15:29:08 <Varn> stonematt:  authority is a good term.  we picked issuer as covering the informal as well as more rigorous
15:29:29 <dlongley> +1 to authority only covering some portion of the use cases
15:29:35 <Varn> stonematt:  need a term that can cover both and authority seems bigger and more bureaucratic than issuer
15:29:41 <manu> Manu: One of the things we need to pay attention to is how easy it is to talk about this stuff in front of people where they get what we're talking about pretty quickly.
15:29:47 <Varn> burn:  burns manu
15:30:05 <burn> s/burn:  burns manu//
15:30:14 <manu> Manu: Authority is difficult because people may think that the claim has to come from a corporate/government.
15:30:40 <manu> Manu: Presenter is difficult because it's not always the role of that box... that role both receives and presents
15:31:00 <dlongley> q+
15:31:22 <Varn> stonematt:  experience is that terms with official sounding names like credential bureau turned folks off and stymied user acceptance
15:31:25 <amigus> -1 to authority for all the reasons folks are saying.
15:31:33 <burn> q?
15:31:36 <stonematt> q?
15:32:32 <Varn> dlongley: agrees that authority would seem to cut out less official issuers. author may be better.
15:32:37 <stonematt> ack dlongley
15:32:38 <manu> q+
15:32:39 <JoeAndrieu> +1 author
15:32:53 <stonematt> -1 author
15:33:04 <Varn> -1 author
15:33:11 <nage> q+
15:33:26 <dlongley> thinks "issuer" is pretty good.
15:34:02 <Varn> manu:  author and authority does not work across all use cases such as banking
15:35:24 <Varn> manu:  we have looked at author and authority before and implies one needs an official status or permission to issue and author does not sound official enough.
15:35:31 <Varn> q+
15:35:42 <stonematt> +1 issuer
15:35:46 <stonematt> q?
15:35:50 <stonematt> ack manu
15:35:54 <Varn> manu:  issuer found the middle ground
15:35:56 <ChristopherA__> ChristopherA__ has joined #vcwg
15:36:07 <amigus> +1 issuer
15:36:38 <stonematt> also want to differentiate between holder (subject) and agent who can ack on behalf of holder
15:36:39 <amigus> Authority could be defined as a type of issuer but it shouldn't replace the term issuer
15:36:48 <stonematt> q?
15:37:07 <Varn> manu:  presenter is too narrow as there are other things a holder does besides present so it implies something too narrow
15:37:28 <stonematt> q?
15:37:42 <stonematt> no term is going to be perfect...
15:37:47 <dlongley> each of the current terms is the result of a compromise
15:37:49 <JoeAndrieu> q+
15:37:54 <Varn> manu:  is the objection enough to prevent FPWD or no?
15:37:57 <stonematt> q?
15:38:11 <stonematt> ack nage
15:38:18 <amigus> q+
15:38:43 <manu> +1 to what Nathan just said!
15:38:54 <Varn> nage:  issuer and verifier inspector and other terms we are using have validation and linking to established regimines
15:38:58 <dlongley> +1
15:39:02 <manu> We need to make sure we're aligning w/ terms that other identity communities are using.
15:39:03 <Varn> +1
15:39:18 <stonematt> +1 to adopting terms that are in use in other contexts that are relevant here.
15:39:18 <burn> q?
15:39:22 <Varn> q-
15:39:31 <stonematt> ack Varn
15:39:36 <stonematt> ack JoeAndrieu
15:40:30 <dlongley> other terms used in other industries, e.g. credit cards: "card issuer" => "card holder" (both recipient and presenter)
15:40:54 <burn> q?
15:41:03 <manu> q+ to note that we're not trying to shut down the conversation - so I'm hearing, this is important enough to hold up FPWD, which is fine, let's have the discussion.
15:41:21 <Varn> JoeAndrieu: issuer is accurate even if not complete so no need to hold up on that. Holder is less sufficient as a term.  we earlier said we would have terminology conversation later. when is later going to happen.  frustrating that it gets shut down.  when can we do it?
15:42:14 <stonematt> q?
15:42:18 <nage> Sovrin's crypto team has been using the term "prover" (some also use "holder" but we've been a bit uncomfortable with calling it "holder" in all cases for some of the same reasons Joe mentions)
15:42:20 <dlongley> +1 to wait on FPWD if people are uncomfortable with the term.
15:42:27 <Varn> stonematt:  issuer may be too much of a catchall as may be some other terms.  we do need to careful as terms used get wide adoption
15:42:39 <Varn> q?
15:43:01 <dlongley> q?
15:43:01 <stonematt> ack amigus
15:43:11 <Varn> amigus:  consider using things as modifiers to indicate subsets of a general word
15:43:16 <stonematt> q+ on idea of "type of issuer"
15:43:35 <stonematt> q?
15:43:40 <stonematt> ack manu
15:43:40 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note that we're not trying to shut down the conversation - so I'm hearing, this is important enough to hold up FPWD, which is fine, let's have the discussion.
15:44:08 <Varn> amigus:  things meant something like a type of issuer to modify the phrase issuer
15:44:37 <Varn> manu:  need to get the terminology set before FPWD.  if need separate call to address we can.
15:44:52 <Varn> we can also do this on our next call
15:45:07 <Varn> need proposals before we can discuss
15:45:16 <JoeAndrieu> +1
15:45:18 <Varn> q+
15:45:21 <stonematt> q?
15:45:45 <Varn> stonematt: no objection to manu's suggestion
15:46:21 <JoeAndrieu> +1 more proposals
15:47:31 <stonematt> q?
15:47:39 <stonematt> q-
15:47:44 <stonematt> ack Varn
15:48:07 <JoeAndrieu> q+
15:48:11 <stonematt> q?
15:48:17 <manu> Varn: Those that have interest in terminology proposals make suggestions now and we can discuss next week.
15:48:19 <JoeAndrieu> q-
15:49:04 <amigus> +1 to handling it it in a subsequent meeting once proposals are made rather than another meeting.
15:49:18 <dlongley> q+
15:49:26 <stonematt> q?
15:49:29 <stonematt> ack dlongley
15:49:56 <Varn> JoeAndrieu:  more conversation on github, make a variety of specific proposals, discuss as much off line as much as possible, question as to whether to have it on main call
15:50:42 <gkellogg> +1
15:50:44 <JoeAndrieu> +1 for main call
15:50:44 <dlongley> +1
15:50:45 <cwebber2> +1
15:50:45 <stonematt> +1
15:50:47 <ChristopherA__> +1 discuss in github
15:50:49 <manu> +0.5
15:50:50 <Varn> stonematt:  asked for plus have on call and minus if dont want on call
15:50:52 <Varn> +1
15:50:52 <MattLarson> +1
15:50:56 <Colleen> +1
15:50:56 <amigus> +1
15:51:16 <Charles_Engelke> +1
15:51:18 <dezell> +1 with reservations
15:51:19 <burn> burn has joined #vcwg
15:51:25 <bigbluehat> +1
15:51:31 <Varn> need to define the terminology for a +.5
15:51:38 <stonematt> q?
15:52:06 <burn> q+
15:52:13 <nage> +1 on terminology discussions never ending, but we need a consensus on our working definition
15:52:13 <JoeAndrieu> +1 for doing it and getting done with terminology
15:52:17 <Varn> stonematt:  seconds note that terminology discussions are a bit of a morrass
15:52:29 <dlongley> i think the concern was that people who were interested in the terminology discussion wouldn't have time to join yet another call -- so having the discussion once on the main call seems reasonable.
15:52:57 <dlongley> (Richard's concern I mean, is what I was hearing)
15:53:05 <stonematt> q?
15:53:05 <Varn> burn:  got dropped and rejoined.  understands concern but also possible to add comment to documents indicating not done/baked/dragon-free and work still needed
15:53:08 <stonematt> ack burn
15:53:19 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:53:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/13-vcwg-minutes.html burn
15:53:50 <manu> Topic: Open PRs
15:53:54 <manu> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/7
15:53:58 <Varn> stonematt:  question on issue 7 on agenda.  it has been closed so no need to discuss
15:54:41 <burn> FPWD is first priority until we get it done.
15:55:31 <manu> +1 for putting a focus on Verification and Revocation...
15:55:35 <burn> q+
15:55:44 <Varn> stonematt:  revoke and validate are possible next issues to address once FPWD of DM is done. please start looking at the areas of uncertainty to create a batting order for discussions needed to resolve/inform/solve
15:56:08 <ChristopherA> I'm also stuck on getting some basic schema into schema.org
15:56:14 <Varn> burn: verification and revocation floated to the top in a previous poll
15:56:17 <ChristopherA> q+
15:56:23 <burn> ack burn
15:56:32 <stonematt> ack ChristopherA
15:57:14 <stonematt> q+
15:57:24 <burn> ack stonematt
15:57:37 <manu> Yes, we can run these in parallel
15:57:44 <Varn> ChristopherA:  from an implementer POV there are a number of things we have closed on that are good to go that are schema oriented we could submit to schema.org and other places that verifiers and validators and look at them and confirm
15:57:57 <ChristopherA> Since I'm hoping for the non-controversial ones, it may not require discussion, but needs more knowledge then I have.
15:58:04 <manu> The only limiting factor is bodies that we can throw at each work stream.
15:58:12 <Varn> stonematt:  can these suggestions be done in parallel?
15:58:16 <burn> Christopher, which issues are they?
15:58:56 <ChristopherA> Is there someone besides manu that can help with schema.org stuff, I'm willing to learn.
15:59:24 <Varn> stonematt:  who is willing to help with schema.org?  no volunteers now but manu who is overloaded.
15:59:43 <Varn> stonematt: out of time and will address on next call
15:59:53 <Varn> Call ended
16:00:06 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/13-vcwg-minutes.html burn
16:00:28 <Varn> thanks.  did not know that command
16:01:25 <burn> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:25 <Zakim> Present: Dan_Burnett, John_Tibbetts, Ted_Thibodeau, Nathan_George, Gregg_Kellogg, Christopher_Allen, Dave_Longley, Charles_Engelke, Adam_Migus, Manu_Sporny, David_Ezell,
16:01:29 <Zakim> ... Colleen_Kennedy, Matt_Stone, Chris_Webber, Joe_Andrieu, Matt_Larson, Richard_Varn, Rob_Trainer, Benjamin_Young
16:01:33 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/13-vcwg-minutes.html burn
16:01:54 <burn> Meeting: Verifiable Claims Working Group
16:04:02 <burn> present+ Colleen_Kennedy
16:04:11 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/13-vcwg-minutes.html burn
16:04:47 <burn> present+ Matt_Stone, Chris_Webber
16:04:54 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/13-vcwg-minutes.html burn
16:05:31 <burn> present+ Joe_Andrieu, Matt_Larson, Richard_Varn, Rob_Trainer, Benjamin_Young
16:05:40 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/13-vcwg-minutes.html burn
16:08:22 <burn> s/thanks.  did not know that command//
16:08:28 <burn> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:08:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/13-vcwg-minutes.html burn
16:10:09 <burn> rrsagent, bye
16:10:09 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2017/06/13-vcwg-actions.rdf :
16:10:09 <RRSAgent> ACTION: chairs to contact Web Payments IG, Privacy IG, Web App Sec and Credential Management API about seeking input for TPAC and in general [1]
16:10:09 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/06/13-vcwg-irc#T15-19-01
16:10:14 <burn> zakim, bye?
16:10:14 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, burn.