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17:58:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/06/08-epubcheck-irc
17:59:15 <tzviya> zakim, this is epubcheck TF
17:59:15 <Zakim> got it, tzviya
17:59:26 <tzviya> chair: Tzviya
17:59:49 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epubcheck
18:00:26 <Avneesh> present+ Avneesh
18:01:01 <tzviya> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub3/2017Jun/0005.html
18:01:04 <tzviya> present+
18:02:01 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
18:02:05 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
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18:03:25 <garth> present +Garth
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18:03:30 <garth> present +Duga
18:03:48 <duga> present+ garth
18:03:52 <duga> present+ duga
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18:04:10 <rdeltour> present+
18:04:15 <clapierre> present_ Charles_LaPierre
18:05:02 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
18:05:30 <dauwhe> tzviya: lots of regrets
18:05:49 <dauwhe> ... mattg wins the service award yesterday, but he can't be here :(
18:05:59 <dauwhe> ... welcome to the epubcheck task force
18:06:17 <dauwhe> ... introductions
18:06:27 <dauwhe> rdeltour: Romain Deltour, DAISY
18:06:28 <Wolfgang_> Wolfgang_ has joined #epubcheck
18:06:37 <dauwhe> ... working on epubcheck for two years, primary maintainer
18:07:00 <dauwhe> ... I'm here to help, but I can't work a lot of hours on the code
18:07:12 <dauwhe> Tobias: I'm Tobias Fischer, software dev from DE
18:07:18 <dauwhe> ... creator of Pagina
18:07:36 <dauwhe> ... volunteering with epubcheck for last 2 years
18:07:55 <dauwhe> tzviya: I chair all the things
18:08:00 <Naomi> Naomi has joined #epubcheck
18:08:06 <dauwhe> ... and I do everything
18:08:14 <dauwhe> garth: co-chair of DPUB
18:08:27 <dauwhe> ... Google uses epubcheck in our ingest pipeline
18:08:37 <dauwhe> duga: Brady Duga, google
18:08:54 <dauwhe> clapierre: Charles LaPierre, Benetech
18:09:14 <dauwhe> ... EPUB CG A11y task force co chair
18:09:35 <dauwhe> dauwhe: Dave Cramer, Hachette
18:10:16 <dauwhe> garth: Kevin Xu is with Google, working on epubcheck in google ingest pipeline
18:10:45 <dauwhe> ???: Thomas Ledoux: working on epubcheck
18:11:12 <dauwhe> Marissa: Marisa DeMeglio, dev from DAISY
18:11:28 <dauwhe> ... work on validation
18:11:37 <tzviya> s/Marissa/Marisa
18:11:43 <dauwhe> Naomi: I work for Random Penguin, doing epub process development
18:12:00 <dauwhe> Wolfgang_: Wolfgang Schindler from Stuttgart, working on dictionaries
18:12:06 <dauwhe> ... not a java dev :)
18:12:22 <dauwhe> tzviya: regrets from Readium folks
18:12:49 <dauwhe> ... we have quite a long agenda
18:13:01 <dauwhe> ... I don't know about the programming; I'm hear to help lead
18:13:18 <dauwhe> Topic: Documents
18:13:31 <dauwhe> ... our goal is to make it possible for others to contribute to epubcheck
18:13:38 <dauwhe> ... break large tasks into smaller tasks
18:13:48 <dauwhe> ... so we can hand off small tasks
18:13:54 <dauwhe> ... lots of links in agenda
18:14:00 <dauwhe> ... we need volunteers
18:14:24 <dauwhe> ... we need a detailed list of changes from 3.0.1 to 3.1
18:14:32 <dauwhe> ... this is something a non-dev can do
18:14:43 <dauwhe> ... with guidance from a mattg doc
18:14:47 <dauwhe> ... and then create github issues
18:15:00 <dauwhe> ... this person should start by working with Matt, the world's nicest human
18:15:15 <Tobias> Matt's current 3.1 changelog: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kgoxSEhF_iTyixj6XaZIc0cgruBNNQknaif4fyXqKto/edit
18:15:18 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kgoxSEhF_iTyixj6XaZIc0cgruBNNQknaif4fyXqKto/edit
18:15:36 <dauwhe> ... do we have volunteers to work on this?
18:15:49 <dauwhe> garth: what's the one linked in the agenda?
18:16:08 <dauwhe> rdeltour: this is not from the work plan doc
18:16:22 <dauwhe> tzviya: this is link one
18:16:27 <dauwhe> ... epub 3.1 validation
18:16:35 <garth> http://www.idpf.org/epub/31/spec/epub-changes-20170105.html
18:16:51 <dauwhe> ... we should just go from here
18:17:02 <dauwhe> tzviya: matt took that doc, and wrote up the google doc
18:17:10 <dauwhe> rdeltour: the google doc is more detailed
18:17:32 <dauwhe> Naomi: should we split it up by chunks? I could do some, like do the package doc validation
18:17:41 <dauwhe> tzviya: that's excellent
18:17:57 <dauwhe> ... how much time do you need?
18:18:15 <dauwhe> Naomi: If it's just creating provisional github issues, I think I could do it by the 26th
18:18:22 <dauwhe> tzviya: end of month? Excellent.
18:18:33 <dauwhe> ... you, matt, and I will follow up to get this started
18:18:50 <dauwhe> tzviya: Matteus may offer to help with other sections
18:18:58 <dauwhe> ... the next few issues are all connected
18:19:05 <dauwhe> ... if you look at work plan doc, link 2
18:19:23 <tzviya> https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck/wiki/WorkPlan
18:19:30 <dauwhe> ... you'll see there is a maintenance release scheduled for epubcheck, version 4.1.0
18:19:55 <dauwhe> ... we wanted to get a feel from the group if you think this is a good idea given there's no 3.1 support
18:20:13 <dauwhe> Naomi: there are some retailers who are having ingestion issues with our files that are not wrong
18:20:19 <dauwhe> ... I think we should do this release
18:20:28 <Tobias> current 4.1.0 milestone: https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck/milestone/3
18:20:33 <dauwhe> rdeltour: I agree. There are many bug fixes and minor improvements
18:20:40 <dauwhe> ... we dn't have to wait for 3.1
18:21:05 <dauwhe> tzviya: my concern was about publicity, if we release a new version that doesn't include 3.1 it looks bad and is confusing
18:21:13 <dauwhe> rdeltour: the story of my life with epubcheck
18:21:29 <dauwhe> ... its a matter of marketing. if we make it clear it's a maintenance release
18:21:37 <dauwhe> ... and that we're working on 3.1, then we're OK
18:21:39 <garth> q+
18:21:42 <tzviya> ack ga
18:21:49 <clapierre> +1 to Romain's point
18:21:52 <Avneesh> q+
18:21:58 <dauwhe> garth: I think it's good to make new version available
18:22:04 <dauwhe> ... having 4.1 would be good for us
18:22:13 <tzviya> ack av
18:22:37 <dauwhe> Avneesh: in DAISY we have experience with maintence releases while major features are in progress
18:22:47 <dauwhe> ... we try to communicate that clearly
18:23:11 <dauwhe> Avneesh: I'm C?? for DAISY
18:23:26 <rdeltour> s/C??/COO/
18:23:42 <dauwhe> ... DAISY has been quite involved with epubcheck, and I want to help with a smooth transition
18:23:59 <dauwhe> tzviya: so consensus seems to be to go for maintence release
18:24:09 <Wolfgang_> +1 for maintenance release
18:24:18 <dauwhe> ... let's talk about resource requirement
18:24:29 <dauwhe> ... and how much time is required, and what skills
18:24:34 <tzviya> https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck/wiki/TestSuiteCleanup
18:24:40 <dauwhe> ... there's link 1.5 with romain's doc
18:24:52 <dauwhe> ... romain, can you walk us through this?
18:25:02 <dauwhe> ... let's break this up into tasks
18:25:14 <dauwhe> rdeltour: epubcheck comes with extensive integration tests
18:25:24 <dauwhe> ... we have a bunch of epubs we run epubcheck against
18:25:36 <dauwhe> ... and we check against expected passes/failures
18:25:41 <dauwhe> ... several hundreds of tests
18:25:52 <dauwhe> ... test suite has grown organically, and is how hard to maintain
18:26:22 <dauwhe> ... after a contribution from ??? devs, dozens of tests were added, and it was more obv. that tests were hard to maintain
18:26:39 <dauwhe> ... in parallel with 3.1 impl, we should clean up and reorganize test suite
18:26:47 <dauwhe> ... make it more maintainable
18:26:49 <Wolfgang_> s /???/Nook/
18:26:49 <tzviya> s/???/nook
18:26:56 <dauwhe> ... this is painful for devs
18:27:07 <dauwhe> ... I spent more time fixing test suite than making code changes
18:27:19 <dauwhe> ... in this cleanup doc, I tried to define some steps
18:27:24 <dauwhe> ... for us to work on
18:27:48 <dauwhe> ... 1. define naming convention, for directories and unit test methods
18:27:52 <dauwhe> ... there's no convention now
18:28:06 <dauwhe> ... it's messy
18:28:45 <dauwhe> ... we have to reorg test directories
18:28:56 <dauwhe> ... there are two main branches where data is stored
18:29:12 <dauwhe> ... there's a 20 directory for epub2, and a 30 directory...
18:29:26 <dauwhe> ... and there's some packaged epubs, and some expanded files, and some single docs
18:29:43 <dauwhe> ... and more stuff added by BN folks
18:29:52 <dauwhe> ... need to merge input data branches
18:30:07 <dauwhe> ... and cleanup things like having both expanded and packages
18:30:13 <dauwhe> ... easier for devs to use expanded
18:30:33 <dauwhe> ... we have to clean up individual tests
18:30:50 <dauwhe> ... some are real-world tests
18:30:51 <tzviya> q?
18:31:01 <dauwhe> ... some are not minimal test cases
18:31:28 <dauwhe> ... and make a minimal base epub
18:31:40 <dauwhe> ... and rework test data to work in minimal base
18:31:55 <dauwhe> ... sometimes a single test case raises several issues
18:32:11 <dauwhe> ... so we need to split, so each test tests a single feature
18:32:33 <dauwhe> ... there's also a companion metadata doc
18:32:49 <dauwhe> ... epubcheck reads this data
18:32:59 <dauwhe> ... hard to maintain; we should get rid of these
18:33:07 <Wolfgang_> * has everybody problems to hear Romain?
18:33:35 <dauwhe> ... that's about it
18:33:53 <dauwhe> rdeltour: this is not rocket science, but it's annoying, and needs to be done
18:34:08 <dauwhe> ... it will take a long time due to the number of tests, but it can be done progressively
18:34:20 <dauwhe> ... after cleanup, we can check for test coverage
18:34:29 <dauwhe> ... but the cleanup is needed first
18:34:32 <dauwhe> tzviya: thanks
18:34:57 <dauwhe> ... the 4.1 release is our first priorty, you said it's all but complete
18:35:07 <dauwhe> ... what do you need from this group to get 4.1 out the door?
18:35:17 <dauwhe> rdeltour: I don't think we need much from the group from 4.1
18:35:38 <dauwhe> Tobias: most of the open issues are things which need to be reviewed, like 15 PRs with code changes
18:35:46 <dauwhe> ... so there are only 9 open issues
18:35:54 <dauwhe> .. for which romain signed up :)
18:36:08 <dauwhe> ... we could reassign, but I'm on holiday for next 2.5 weeks
18:36:18 <dauwhe> ... to get 4.1 finished we don't need big help from group
18:36:35 <dauwhe> tzviya: if you look in the repo, it's broken into projects
18:36:40 <tzviya> https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck/projects
18:36:47 <dauwhe> ... the 4.1 project, and 3.1 refactoring/cleanup
18:37:03 <dauwhe> ... those things could be done simultaneously
18:37:24 <dauwhe> ... I want to figure out how to break out these tasks into things we can assign to people who are not romain/tobias
18:37:33 <dauwhe> ... so we need skills required and time needed
18:37:41 <dauwhe> ... might be too early to figure this out
18:37:46 <dauwhe> ... might need training
18:37:58 <dauwhe> ... right now I can't ask my colleagues to get involved
18:38:08 <dauwhe> ... Romain, as you work can you add to wiki?
18:38:13 <dauwhe> rdeltour: during this call?
18:38:28 <dauwhe> tzviya: like naming convention
18:39:07 <dauwhe> rdeltour: I don't think we need call time for naming; one person should volunteer
18:39:39 <dauwhe> ... for instance, in first example, it's a convention that test methods start with 'test'
18:39:46 <dauwhe> ... but the rest we can make shorter
18:39:54 <dauwhe> ... a volunteer should do a naming pattern
18:39:57 <dauwhe> tzviya: I can do that
18:40:13 <dauwhe> ... reworking test directory org is more complex
18:40:24 <dauwhe> ... as well as understanding how validation works
18:40:32 <dauwhe> ... this person would work with Romain/Tobias
18:40:36 <dauwhe> rdeltour: clarification:
18:40:45 <dauwhe> ... it doesn't require knowledge of current tests
18:40:57 <dauwhe> ... but it does require knowledge about the epub specs and history
18:41:08 <dauwhe> ... whether we want to organize by version and domain
18:41:37 <dauwhe> ... one person can propose something first, and then we can match that against current test suite to make sure it's workable
18:41:49 <dauwhe> tzviya: brady and garth, no one knows history better than you
18:42:00 <rdeltour> https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck/wiki/TestSuiteCleanup
18:42:00 <tzviya> https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck/wiki/TestSuiteCleanup
18:42:03 <dauwhe> garth: the doc I thought we were using was the work plan
18:42:08 <dauwhe> tzviya: there are multiple docs
18:42:14 <dauwhe> garth: I see it
18:42:44 <dauwhe> ... rework test organization
18:43:40 <dauwhe> tzviya: romain said it requires knowledge of history of epub, and how tests might be organized
18:43:49 <dauwhe> ... could you or brady do this?
18:44:20 <dauwhe> garth: we'll look at it and make comments, and take an initial stab
18:44:26 <dauwhe> tzviya: you can put suggestions in the wiki
18:44:29 <rdeltour> +1
18:44:34 <dauwhe> tzviya: define a minimal base epub test case
18:44:52 <dauwhe> rdeltour: it's not complicated
18:45:39 <clapierre> q=
18:45:46 <clapierre> Q+
18:46:02 <tzviya> ack cl
18:46:12 <dauwhe> dauwhe: I can work on minimal test case
18:46:21 <dauwhe> clapierre: how can this work?
18:46:36 <dauwhe> rdeltour: it's just a base for all unit tests
18:46:57 <dauwhe> ... one valid epub file, which can be copied when creating a new test, and then you tweak something in it to make it invalid.
18:47:01 <dauwhe> clapierre: that makes sense
18:47:20 <dauwhe> Topic: Cleaning up each test
18:47:34 <dauwhe> tzviya: anyone with epub knowledge could be trained?
18:47:39 <Naomi> q+
18:47:43 <dauwhe> ... what do you want to see happen here?
18:47:56 <dauwhe> rdeltour: we will need to document what needs to happen
18:48:03 <dauwhe> ... take one test case in epubcheck
18:48:07 <dauwhe> ... run it
18:48:15 <Wolfgang_> * Where would I find the test cases?
18:48:29 <dauwhe> ... 2 cases: one, is a test that's expected to pass
18:48:30 <tzviya> q+ Wolfgang
18:48:50 <dauwhe> ... in that case you just need to minimize the test case, prune any useless feature from input
18:49:00 <dauwhe> ... the other case is for expected failures
18:49:08 <dauwhe> ... we need to look at error messages
18:49:32 <dauwhe> ... if the messages are about several independent issues, then we need to split the test case, make one for each error
18:49:39 <dauwhe> ... and clean up / minimize the input data
18:49:40 <tzviya> ack n
18:49:50 <dauwhe> Naomi: all of this is in java, right?
18:50:11 <dauwhe> rdeltour: the most difficult part doesn't have to do with java, but is about changing the epub content
18:50:13 <BillMcCoy> BillMcCoy has joined #epubcheck
18:50:14 <tzviya> ack w
18:50:20 <BillMcCoy> present+ BillM
18:50:31 <dauwhe> Wolfgang_: my Q is where I would find the test cases, to get a feeling for them?
18:50:41 <Tobias> testcases: https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck/tree/master/src/test/resources
18:50:43 <dauwhe> ... can you post a link?
18:50:47 <clapierre> q+
18:50:58 <tzviya> ack cl
18:51:20 <dauwhe> clapierre: is there any IDE support for the java files?
18:51:32 <dauwhe> rdeltour: it's possible to run all the tests at once with Maven
18:51:45 <dauwhe> ... you might be able to use that for single test
18:52:02 <dauwhe> Tobias: you can run single tests with JUnit in Eclipse (?)
18:52:12 <dauwhe> tzviya: if that's not possible, that's something we should add
18:53:01 <dauwhe> rdeltour: even running epubcheck against the input data gets you a long way
18:53:07 <dauwhe> tzviya: true
18:53:13 <BillMcCoy> (staled) Eclipse plugin for running epubcheck (and editing): https://github.com/rkwright/epubcrude
18:53:18 <dauwhe> ... as far as resources, and checking and modularizing
18:53:25 <dauwhe> ... it's a very manual task. Correct?
18:53:28 <dauwhe> rdeltour: correct.
18:53:37 <dauwhe> tzviya: most people in call should be able to understand
18:53:58 <dauwhe> ... could we divvy up the files among the ten of us
18:54:02 <dauwhe> rdeltour: that's a good idea
18:54:17 <dauwhe> ... the prerequisite is to have a naming convention, directory structure, and base epub
18:54:28 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'll try to have that tomorrow
18:54:39 <dauwhe> s/that/naming convention/
18:55:05 <dauwhe> tzviya: garth should have directory structure by end of next week
18:55:13 <dauwhe> dauwhe: I can have base epub next week
18:55:42 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'll assign everyone on the call, and some other folks... I'll create a list of files, run tests, and work on documentation
18:55:54 <rdeltour> SGTM!
18:55:56 <dauwhe> ... everyone will have 2-3 weeks to do that, with ten files to work on
18:56:13 <dauwhe> SGML!
18:56:29 <dauwhe> tzviya: in a week and a half, we'll have the prereqs
18:56:41 <dauwhe> ... four minutes left, for the rest of the agenda
18:56:55 <dauwhe> ... if we're doing a 4.1 release, when might the 3.1 release be done?
18:57:04 <dauwhe> rdeltour: depends who's gonna do it
18:57:10 <dauwhe> ... we don't have dev resources
18:57:21 <dauwhe> tzviya: we need to talk to Laurent
18:57:30 <dauwhe> ... and do we need to migrate the repo?
18:57:36 <dauwhe> ... how often should we meet?
18:57:43 <dauwhe> ... is this a good time to meet?
18:57:46 <Wolfgang_> q+
18:57:48 <dauwhe> ... it's late in Euroland
18:57:53 <tzviya> ack w
18:57:56 <dauwhe> Wolfgang_: I would like to have it earlier
18:57:57 <BillMcCoy> apologies for my schedule conflict today (that was a one-off conflict though)
18:58:14 <dauwhe> ... one hour earlier?
18:58:16 <rdeltour> late is good for me, kids are quieter :)
18:58:22 <dauwhe> ... once per month works
18:58:28 <garth> Agree
18:58:33 <Avneesh> q+
18:58:34 <clapierre> +1 on 1/month
18:58:39 <tzviya> ack av
18:58:55 <dauwhe> Avneesh: time is late for me, but i may not need to be in all calls
18:59:04 <dauwhe> ... because Romain is here
18:59:25 <dauwhe> tzviya: for next call... I scheduled this one around Romain and Tobias
18:59:34 <dauwhe> ... right now we're scheduled for this time next month
18:59:45 <dauwhe> ... I'll follow up with Romain and Tobias
18:59:56 <dauwhe> ... right now webex is for the same time on 6 July
19:00:02 <dauwhe> ... I'll create minutes and send summary
19:00:06 <tzviya> rrsagent, make logs public
19:00:13 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
19:00:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/08-epubcheck-minutes.html tzviya
19:00:16 <dauwhe> tzviya: thanks
19:00:19 <clapierre> .nw rgBJA
19:00:28 <clapierre> clapierre has left #epubcheck
19:00:43 <rdeltour> thx dauwhe for minuting!
19:00:58 <Tobias> 6 July is okay for me. Thanks everybody.
19:01:21 <tzviya> rrsagent, bye
19:01:21 <RRSAgent> I see no action items