15:51:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #apa
15:51:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/06/07-apa-irc
15:51:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:51:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #apa
15:51:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:51:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:51:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
15:51:27 <trackbot> Date: 07 June 2017
15:52:00 <janina> agenda?
15:52:04 <janina> agenda+ Welcome & Brief Participant Intros
15:52:04 <janina> agenda+ Accessibility at the VR Workshop -- Charles?
15:52:04 <janina> agenda+ VR Deliverables Overview
15:52:04 <janina> agenda+ Anticipated VR Accessibility Challenges Discussion
15:52:05 <janina> agenda+ Is our Checklist helpful?  http://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/checklist
15:52:07 <janina> agenda+ Develop Prioritized Coordination Plan
15:52:09 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
15:52:12 <janina> agenda+ next and future meetings
15:52:14 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:52:30 <janina>  zakim, next item
15:52:30 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome & Brief Participant Intros" taken up [from janina]
15:57:15 <jeffs> jeffs has joined #apa
15:57:24 <jeffs> [waves hello]
15:57:47 <MichielBijl> present+
15:57:51 <jeffs> oh goodie! Zakim our old friend is here!
15:58:06 <janina> Michiel, can you scribe today?
15:59:34 <janina> present+
15:59:38 <anssik> anssik has joined #apa
15:59:48 <jeffs> present+
16:00:08 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
16:00:18 <leweaver> leweaver has joined #apa
16:01:00 <JF> JF has joined #apa
16:01:05 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:01:08 <dom> Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
16:01:15 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #apa
16:01:23 <JF> present+ JF
16:01:36 <jeffs> Present+ Jeff_Sonstein
16:02:02 <IanPouncey> present+
16:02:09 <dom> Present+ Diego_Marcos_(Mozilla)
16:02:27 <JF> scribe: JF
16:02:34 <tink> tink has joined #apa
16:02:40 <MichaelC> present+
16:02:42 <tink> present+ Léonie
16:02:42 <JF> agenda?
16:03:27 <JF> zakim, take up item 1
16:03:28 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome & Brief Participant Intros" taken up [from janina]
16:03:49 <Judy> Judy has joined #apa
16:03:52 <JF> JS: Welcoming comments to memebers of the Virtual Reality participants - Welcome!
16:04:50 <JF> s/memebers/members
16:05:00 <dom> [Dominique Hazael-Massieux, W3C, here from the WebVR perspective as organizer of the Web & VR workshop last year]
16:05:11 <janina> Hi, I'm Janina Sajka, Chair of APA, and a beneficiary of good accessibility technology personally.
16:05:23 <jeffs> Prof. Jeff Sonstein from RIT, coming from the VR side
16:05:29 <jasonjgw> Jason White - Educational Testing Service - participant in APA and Facilitator of the Research Questions Task Force.
16:05:30 <MichielBijl> Michiel Bijl, TPG / The Paciello Group
16:05:33 <jasonjgw> present+
16:05:34 <JF> Hi, JF (John Foliot) member of APA, WCAG, and other accessibility efforts at W3C (and today's scribe)
16:05:37 <anssik> Anssi Kostiainen, Intel Corporation, co-chair of the W3C's Web & VR workshop
16:05:43 <joanie> Joanmarie Diggs, Igalia S.L., co-chair of ARIA working group, member of APA.
16:06:03 <Judy> Judy Brewer, WAI Director (in IRC)
16:06:20 <DigiTec> DigiTec has joined #apa
16:06:20 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #apa
16:06:23 <jeffs> Jeff Sonstein: also worked on W3C Mobile Web Initiative for a number of years
16:06:33 <MichaelC_> Michael Cooper, APA staff contact
16:06:36 <davidb> davidb has joined #apa
16:06:38 <leweaver> Lewis Weaver and Nell Waliczek - Microsoft WebVR & Windows Mixed Reality
16:06:49 <davidb> David Bolter, Mozilla, last minute addition from accessibility, (once connected haptic devices to VRML 1000 years ago)
16:07:23 <micro__> micro__ has joined #apa
16:07:52 <JF> zakim, take up item 3
16:07:52 <Zakim> agendum 3. "VR Deliverables Overview" taken up [from janina]
16:07:56 <dom> [For VR Workshop Accessibility session, see https://www.w3.org/2016/06/vr-workshop/report.html#accessibility ]
16:08:19 <DigiTec> Justin Rogers, Oculus, Engineering Manager for Oculus Browse and general standards guy for our web efforts.
16:08:24 <JF> JS: asking VR Group for an overview of Deliverables
16:08:36 <JF> DOM: will give a brief explanation of web VR
16:08:54 <JF> an API that allows browser to detect VR headset devices
16:08:58 <jeffs> ?
16:09:19 <JF> once connected, it allows for the creation of 3D views in real time on the headset
16:09:48 <janina> q?
16:09:53 <JF> These data headsets are gathering data and combined with outher technologies allows for the creation of massive VR experiences
16:10:08 <JF> s/outher/other
16:10:22 <JF> JS: have some questions about those headset
16:10:25 <jeffs> [note: all VR is not immersive/headset-based]
16:10:41 <dom> [the WebVR API https://w3c.github.io/webvr/spec/latest/ ]
16:10:57 <ddorwin> ddorwin has joined #apa
16:11:13 <JF> questions related to visual versus sonic expeience
16:11:45 <janina> q?
16:11:56 <JF> also: there are other external influences (wind directions, poximity sensing, etc.) - how advanced are these issues?
16:12:02 <janina> q?
16:12:04 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #apa
16:12:11 <janina> q?
16:12:12 <JF> DOM: we are currently limited by what is on the market (i.e. mostly haptic feedback)
16:12:27 <JF> so for today, it detects the movement of the headset
16:12:50 <JF> in more advance setups, there are controls that can allow further sensory experiences (i.e. movement)
16:12:59 <JF> some controllers alsohave vibration capacity as well
16:13:08 <JF> but these are all limited in scope and capability today
16:13:27 <janina> q?
16:13:44 <JF> currently the Web VR API is not focussing on these additional possibilities
16:14:01 <Gottfried> Gottfried has joined #apa
16:14:02 <janina> q?
16:14:15 <JF> Just: we are thinknig about the problem. it comes down to providing the appropriate centers in the device
16:14:33 <JF> s/Just:/Justin
16:14:51 <JF> working on the Web VR 2 spec to allow for those types of inputs
16:15:07 <janina> q?
16:15:28 <JF> audio exposure is currently tied to Web Audio API - no specific work happening there yet
16:15:31 <janina> q?
16:15:38 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #APA
16:15:46 <JF> also exploring 3rd party camera integration
16:15:57 <JF> Looking from the APA group on what needs would be
16:15:58 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
16:16:04 <jeffs> IMHO it is A Good Thing to use other APIs rather than adding to a monolithic VR API
16:16:34 <dom> s/DOM:/Dom:/
16:16:50 <tdrake> tdrake has joined #apa
16:16:52 <tdrake> present+ tdrake
16:16:52 <JF> zakim , take up Item 1
16:17:06 <JF> zakim, take up item 1
16:17:06 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome & Brief Participant Intros" taken up [from janina]
16:17:20 <dom> Zakim, take up item 2
16:17:20 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Accessibility at the VR Workshop -- Charles?" taken up [from janina]
16:17:29 <anssik> https://www.w3.org/2016/06/vr-workshop/slides/VR-Accessibility.pdf
16:17:30 <JF> zakim, close item 1
16:17:30 <Zakim> agendum 1, Welcome & Brief Participant Intros, closed
16:17:32 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:17:32 <Zakim> 2. Accessibility at the VR Workshop -- Charles? [from janina]
16:17:33 <JF> zakim, take up item 2
16:17:33 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Accessibility at the VR Workshop -- Charles?" taken up [from janina]
16:18:03 <dom> -> https://www.w3.org/2016/06/vr-workshop/report.html#accessibility Summary of the accessibility session at the VR workshop
16:18:22 <JF> CL: will share slides and note when done
16:18:34 <JF> gave the accessibility overview at the workshop
16:18:40 <jeffs> we got the slides URI, no need to read them to us
16:18:56 <janina> q?
16:20:51 <JF> [Charles reviews the presentation with the group]
16:21:54 <judax> judax has joined #apa
16:22:03 <JF> outlining various types of supplimental data that would be required.
16:22:44 <JF> example: online/VR purchase of clothing: description of both the garmet, but also the ability to describe tactile information (feeling of the material), etc.
16:23:01 <judax> Hello everyone, Iker Jamardo from Google's Daydream WebXR team (Technical Leader). I have been in the call from the beginning over a phone call.
16:23:07 <JF> s/garmet/garment
16:23:31 <jeffs> welcome, Iker
16:24:15 <JF> CL: recognition that accessibility must be integrated, and not bolted on
16:24:26 <janina> q?
16:24:35 <jasonjgw> q+
16:24:48 <JF> JS: we can take questions during the next agenda item
16:25:06 <Gottfried> present+
16:25:10 <davidb> present+
16:25:20 <leweaver> present+
16:25:45 <tdrake> Ted Drake, Intuit, Accessibility . Part of APA group
16:25:50 <JF> JW: interest in educational efforts and VR
16:25:59 <Gottfried> I am an invited expert of APA - computer scientist
16:26:00 <ddorwin> present+
16:26:18 <tink> q+
16:26:30 <JF> JW: it was suggested that the APIs are being impacted by what is available in the market today - and this is logical
16:26:56 <janina> q?
16:27:01 <JF> however there are some technologies that PwD may use, they are not intended for gernal audience but rather specialty auciences
16:27:39 <JF> given that, there will be requirements that should be contemplated when developing new APIs
16:27:42 <JF> zakim, item 4
16:27:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'item 4', JF
16:27:51 <clapierre> ack jasonjgw
16:27:51 <janina> ack ja
16:27:53 <JF> zakim, take up item 4
16:27:53 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Anticipated VR Accessibility Challenges Discussion" taken up [from janina]
16:27:59 <janina> ack tink
16:28:02 <bajones> bajones has joined #apa
16:28:18 <tink> http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/IanHamilton/20161031/284491/VR__accessibility.php
16:28:21 <JF> LW: should have a chat with ____ Hamilton - very active in VR gaming
16:28:43 <JF> provides some interesting high-level possibilities and thinking
16:28:45 <bajones> Hi all! Brandon Jones doing my intro line. :)
16:28:51 <janina> q?
16:29:03 <JF> thoughts around VR and real-time description
16:29:03 <anssik> q+
16:29:12 <jeffs> tnx for the link tink  ;^}
16:29:20 <janina> ack a
16:29:26 <JF> Anssik: question for APA
16:29:42 <JF> haven't followed issues around canvas lately - any updates?
16:29:59 <JF> LW: Canvas, in and of itself is not accessible
16:30:18 <JF> thus there is no semantic content in canvas
16:30:36 <JF> there are strategies today, but they are limited
16:30:46 <janina> q?
16:30:49 <jasonjgw> q+
16:30:53 <anssik> s/followed issues/followed a11y issues/
16:31:08 <JF> there is potentially more accessibility coming forward with SVG rather than canvas
16:31:26 <JF> anssik: it seems we are inheiriting many of the same issues
16:31:29 <janina> ack ja
16:32:00 <JF> JW: there is some ability to use ARIA (role) in some instances
16:32:03 <janina> q?
16:32:18 <anssik> s/inheiriting/inheriting/
16:32:31 <JF> JW: WebVL - making accessible is quite difficult
16:32:39 <dom> s/WebVL/WebGL/
16:32:46 <tink> s/thoughts around VR and real-time description  /Wonder about the possibility of bringing together neural networking and Web VR to create real-time audio description/
16:33:07 <JF> have seen "hacky" solutions such as a dupicate HTML version postioned off-screen, and that copy ahs the ARIA and HTML semantics included
16:33:13 <janina> q?
16:33:46 <JF> this creates a maintenance issue to maintain 2 copies
16:33:49 <JF> in sync
16:34:04 <janina> q?
16:34:11 <JF> LW: from Web Plat perspective, unaware of any specific work here
16:34:32 <dom> [for those in VR not familiar with what ARIA is: https://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria ]
16:34:39 <JF> but to use ARIA here would require a new taxonomy for the world (describing things in VR)
16:34:53 <janina> q?
16:35:07 <JF> Joanine: unaware of any other canvas/accessibility work outside of what jason and leonie have suggested
16:35:13 <MichielBijl> <canvas aria-desribedby="here-is-what-you-could-have-had"></canvas>
16:35:28 <joanie> s/Joanine/Joanie/
16:35:31 <DigiTec> q+
16:35:43 <janina> ack di
16:36:25 <JF> Justin: one general question is: there is a way to impact the accessibility tree to place content in the DOM
16:36:51 <JF> there are emergent descriptive languages that would allow for this to describe things, rather than using metadata on the side (etc.)
16:37:06 <tink> q+ to mention the AOM
16:37:07 <bajones> q+
16:37:08 <janina> q?
16:37:37 <JF> Q?
16:37:45 <judax> present+
16:37:47 <DigiTec> Current scene description languages that could expose some accessibility meta-data. React VR, Three.js, Babylon.js, A-Frame.
16:37:51 <bajones> present+
16:38:06 <janina> ack ti
16:38:06 <Zakim> tink, you wanted to mention the AOM
16:38:10 <JF> Justin: in the short-term we'll likely need to continue creating duplcate (side) content, but can we move forward from there?
16:38:16 <dom> -> https://github.com/WICG/aom/blob/gh-pages/explainer.md Accessibility Object Model (explainer)
16:38:18 <tink> https://github.com/WICG/aom
16:38:33 <JF> LW: want to point out the accessible Object model - a JS accessibility API
16:38:53 <jasonjgw> q+
16:38:54 <jeffs> the idea of extending a "scene description language" like ThreeJS with std accessibility-oriented data is an interesting one
16:39:16 <JF> this will make the accessibility tree a lot more flexible - the ability to query, add to and modify will be easier
16:39:23 <janina> ack ba
16:40:19 <JF> BJ: in exploring a parallel accessibility tree, we've discussed the possibility of bringing portions of the DOM into the canvas space
16:40:47 <janina> ack ja
16:41:00 <JF> would be interested n seeing that the accessibility of the DOM tree that is brought over is not lost - not sure how to ensure it is tied to the visuals, but ensuring that it is there would be a useful first step
16:41:07 <jeffs> my $0.02 worth: a parallel anything requiring maintaining two thingies in sync is Not A Good Idea
16:41:58 <JF> JW: there are 2 approaches: more direct support to devices and people using those devices (hardware solution), and second: an accessibility tree or DOM derived tree that AT on the client side could process to enhance the VR application
16:42:29 <JF> JW: is there a need for both? which would be better n what circumstances? would they / how would they interact wit each other?
16:42:50 <JF> +1 to JeffS
16:42:51 <janina> q?
16:43:22 <janina> q?
16:43:27 <bajones> q+
16:43:37 <janina> ack ba
16:43:53 <Judy> Judy has joined #apa
16:44:34 <JF> BJ: wanted to explore issues related to accessibility issues in the real world - heavy skew towards sight impairment, but what of height of countertop, or you need to be agile but you are mobility impaired
16:44:53 <janina> q?
16:44:56 <JF> seems like an unique opportunity here: accessibility that mirros a more reaql-world need
16:45:09 <JF> s/mirros/mirrors
16:45:33 <Judy> q+
16:45:45 <janina> q+
16:45:55 <JF> BJ: so perhaps we might consider introducing a virtual control that raises the floor (as opposed to lowering a counter height), ot the ability to turn cameras even if/when you yourself cannot turn
16:45:57 <janina> ack ju
16:46:24 <JF> JB: have done some analysis when Second Life was both popular and being investigated by government entities
16:47:08 <clapierre> q+
16:47:21 <JF> it was extraordinary experience - things that were possible to do (i.e. personal flying) was quite interesting
16:47:40 <janina> ack ja
16:48:13 <Judy> q+
16:48:27 <JF> JS: the sensory experience is so rich that evenif you remove one sensory experience, you will still get a lot from the experience
16:48:52 <jasonjgw> q+
16:49:22 <janina> q?
16:49:32 <janina> ack ch
16:50:04 <JF> CL: what Janina said resonated. the "look around" mode was quite interesting and useful
16:50:13 <jeffs> q?
16:50:36 <JF> also Judy's input around physical limitations versus customized 'virtual experience with the environment adaptable to your needs
16:50:50 <JF> Q+
16:50:55 <janina> ack ju
16:51:00 <JF> ack cl
16:52:27 <JF> JB: so much of VR design is based on visual, but for experiences (imagine a roller-coaster ride) will require more than just visual data (haptic feedback, etc.)
16:52:39 <janina> ack ja
16:52:45 <JF> the ability to deliberately amplify or extend some of those additional opportunities is exciting
16:53:04 <Judy> q+ to make a last quick comment on api design goals?
16:53:36 <JF> JW: will need to give carefu lconsideration on HOW these things are implemented - little deisre to write all of this from scratch - look at libraries and ensure that a11y features are  in the architecture
16:53:54 <bajones> q+
16:54:01 <JF> also wonder aloud about input handling and generic support for more abstractly defined modes of input
16:54:02 <clapierre> q+
16:54:20 <JF> JW: not sure where those architecture opportunities exist
16:54:33 <JF> JS: may be something for further research
16:54:35 <JF> ack JF
16:54:49 <clapierre> q-
16:55:00 <janina> ack jf
16:55:19 <jeffs> +100 to "next steps", more imp than closure on anything in this initial mtg
16:55:44 <janina> ack ju
16:55:44 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to make a last quick comment on api design goals?
16:55:55 <JF> JF: question around movement versus inertia issues
16:55:58 <clapierre> I was going to say that in a recent Code-Sprint / Hackathon at CSUN we worked with PHET and realtime simulations and we prototyped a priority utterance queue to describe things in realtime.
16:56:25 <janina> ack ba
16:56:29 <JF> JB: often start by looking at weet spots at the W3C, but here ensuring that APIs can extend to meet accessibility needs will be important
16:56:46 <JF> BJ: comment regarding different input modalities
16:57:28 <anssik> s/weet/sweet/
16:57:33 <JF> even without thinking about a11y, we've had to think and work on input modes limited by different types of tech - from simple carboard views to high-end viewers with multiple buttons
16:58:08 <JF> BJ: the fact taht we are already dealing with a wide range of devices is almost forcing us to think about a11y
16:58:36 <JF> agenda?
16:58:56 <JF> zakim, close item 2
16:58:56 <Zakim> agendum 2, Accessibility at the VR Workshop -- Charles?, closed
16:58:57 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:58:57 <Zakim> 3. VR Deliverables Overview [from janina]
16:59:02 <JF> zakim, close item 3
16:59:02 <Zakim> agendum 3, VR Deliverables Overview, closed
16:59:03 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:59:03 <Zakim> 4. Anticipated VR Accessibility Challenges Discussion [from janina]
16:59:13 <JF> zakim, take up item 5
16:59:13 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Is our Checklist helpful?  http://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/checklist" taken up [from janina]
16:59:23 <JF> zakim, close item 4
16:59:23 <Zakim> agendum 4, Anticipated VR Accessibility Challenges Discussion, closed
16:59:24 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:59:24 <Zakim> 5. Is our Checklist helpful?  http://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/checklist [from janina]
16:59:26 <JF> agenda?
16:59:52 <dom> -> http://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/checklist  Framework for Accessibility in the Specification of Technologies (FAST)
17:00:00 <JF> MC: the checklis is in the header. it is divided into sections around features that possible tech might provide
17:00:22 <JF> under each section there are related questions to apply
17:00:40 <JF> first to see if it is useful, and second we'd love any feedback regarding enahncements
17:00:48 <JF> especially related to VR
17:01:00 <JF> zakim ,take up next item
17:01:02 <clapierre> Checklist looks great!
17:01:11 <JF> zakim, take up next item
17:01:11 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Develop Prioritized Coordination Plan" taken up [from janina]
17:01:23 <jeffs> +1
17:01:26 <davidb> DB(unspoken): (multiple modalities and the flexible (re)mapping of input and output seems like the long range future here, as well as machine learning based assistance as tink brought up)
17:01:30 <davidb> (gotta run sorry)
17:01:31 <JF> JS: open question - is onging dialog with our research TF make sense?
17:01:40 <jeffs> +1
17:01:53 <JF> JS: perhaps we may want to think about this and respond onlne
17:01:55 <judax> +1
17:01:58 <janina> q?
17:02:09 <jasonjgw> +1 to RQTF working in the area.
17:02:13 <Judy> +1 to following up on this topic
17:02:31 <jeffs> bye
17:02:32 <JF> Will post minutes to both WG's - thanks for attending today
17:02:42 <tink> Thanks JF for scribing.
17:02:47 <tink> tink has left #apa
17:02:50 <judax> Thank you and bye!
17:02:51 <clapierre> clapierre has left #apa
17:03:19 <JF> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:03:34 <JF> trackbot, end meeting
17:03:34 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:03:34 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been MichielBijl, janina, jeffs, Anssi_Kostiainen, Joanmarie_Diggs, Dominique_Hazael-Massieux, JF, Jeff_Sonstein, IanPouncey,
17:03:37 <Zakim> ... Diego_Marcos_(Mozilla), MichaelC, Léonie, jasonjgw, Charles_LaPierre, tdrake, Gottfried, davidb, leweaver, ddorwin, judax, bajones
17:03:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:03:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/07-apa-minutes.html trackbot
17:03:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:03:43 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:03:45 <JF> zakim, please part
17:03:45 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been MichielBijl, janina, jeffs, Anssi_Kostiainen, Joanmarie_Diggs, Dominique_Hazael-Massieux, JF, Jeff_Sonstein, IanPouncey,
17:03:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #apa
17:18:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #apa
17:18:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/06/07-apa-irc
17:18:31 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
17:18:34 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
17:18:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/07-apa-minutes.html MichaelC
17:18:52 <MichaelC> chair: Janina
17:18:56 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: -final
17:18:59 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
17:18:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/07-apa-minutes.html MichaelC
17:19:04 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
17:19:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items