17:00:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
17:00:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/06/06-social-irc
17:00:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:00:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #social
17:00:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SOCL
17:00:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
17:00:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:00:23 <trackbot> Date: 06 June 2017
17:00:26 <ajordan> see ya next week cwebber2!
17:00:26 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: no problem :)
17:00:31 <ajordan> I just skimmed the new section
17:02:05 <tantek> be right there :)
17:02:06 <Loqi> tantek: saranix left you a message 4 days, 14 hours ago: I was wondering what were the reasons that W3 started switching to github 'issues' and what are they 'switching' from?
17:02:20 <ajordan> present+
17:02:32 <sandro> present+
17:02:42 <ben_thatmustbeme> present+
17:02:45 <tantek> present+
17:03:09 <tantek> zakim, who is here?
17:03:09 <Zakim> Present: ajordan, sandro, ben_thatmustbeme, tantek
17:03:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, tantek, jankusanagi_, KjetilK, ajordan, saper, wilkie, tcit, ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk, MMN-o, jaywink, bwn, sknebel, albino, saranix, rhiaro,
17:03:11 <Zakim> ... astronouth7303, cwebber2, sandro, Gargron, mattl, DenSchub, trackbot, csarven, nightpool, raucao, jet, bigbluehat, dwhly, bitbear, lambadalambda, Loqi
17:05:09 <ben_thatmustbeme> i can scribe
17:05:19 <ben_thatmustbeme> scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
17:05:24 <ben_thatmustbeme> scribe: Ben Roberts
17:05:26 <ben_thatmustbeme> Chair: tantek
17:05:33 <tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-30-minutes
17:05:35 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: I can scribe while we talk about JF2 if you want
17:05:35 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: review of minutes of last week
17:06:00 <sandro> +1
17:06:07 <tantek> +1
17:06:13 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
17:06:34 <ajordan> +1
17:07:03 <rhiaro> present+
17:07:25 <ben_thatmustbeme> RESOLVED: accept https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-30-minutes of minutes from last week
17:07:37 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: update for extension
17:08:07 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: no update yet, i created a new w3c.social mastodon instance to hopefully show some support
17:08:21 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... not sure how to show off that link
17:08:31 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: well at least on the WG website
17:08:47 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: i don't think that would be noticablel enough
17:08:52 <ben_thatmustbeme> ajordan: twitter?
17:08:56 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: oh yeah
17:09:05 <ben_thatmustbeme> (laughs all around)
17:09:14 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: specs
17:09:28 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: with cwebber2 not here i don't know we can do much on activitypub
17:09:37 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... anyone have any hot topics to raise on it
17:09:52 <ben_thatmustbeme> ajordan: nothing has been raised recently in the issues
17:10:11 <ajordan> q+
17:10:15 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: we don't have aaronpk or julien here, so i don't know we can do much with websub
17:10:39 <ajordan> q+ to mention the direct-message issue resolution
17:10:41 <aaronpk> not on the call, but my only update is that pfefferle submitted an implementationreport for wordpress https://github.com/w3c/websub/blob/master/implementation-reports/PUBLISHER-wordpress-pubsubhubbub.md
17:10:42 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... aaronpk did get some websub implementation report for wordpress
17:10:48 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... its a plugin for worpress
17:10:51 <aaronpk> also julien seems to have just gone through a bunch of websub issues
17:10:58 <aaronpk> so there is more to discuss on github
17:11:15 <tantek> ack ajordan
17:11:15 <Zakim> ajordan, you wanted to mention the direct-message issue resolution
17:11:31 <ajordan> https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196
17:11:32 <Loqi> [annando] #196 How to differentiate between posts and private (direct) messages?
17:11:42 <ben_thatmustbeme> ajordan: i happen to have last weeks minutes open, and we were goign to discuss the direct message issue
17:11:51 <ajordan> https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196#issuecomment-304958984
17:11:51 <Loqi> [cwebber] Note that Pump.io already does this, and I think this may be the answer: inbox is still used for federation, but multiple streams can be presented to the user in terms of inbox / the "major" feed (which is all the main posts and comments and etc) / t...
17:11:53 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... i just wanted to mention it because it seems like its been resolved
17:12:08 <ben_thatmustbeme> .. it seems like everyone is on the same page
17:12:37 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: sounds good, i leave it cwebber2 to prompt the original opener to ask if they are satisfied
17:13:09 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: but good to see the updates there
17:13:47 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: the only thing i have to report on post type discovery is in a little bit of messaging with sandro, i have had some ...
17:14:31 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... mastodon works well with other mastodon instances, but not much with others outside of mastodon
17:14:43 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: some others have written plugins to make it work here and there
17:14:49 <rhiaro> PostActiv is not GNU Social but is OStatus, also works, I think that counts
17:14:56 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: does mastodon have a character limit?
17:15:05 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: yes, but only on the input
17:15:14 <sandro> (I think)
17:15:50 <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: if we were to hlep make mastodon accept webmention, it would need to figure those out by post type discovery or a subset of the PTD algorithm
17:16:20 <ben_thatmustbeme> ... i think i will look in to doing that subset, and it should be even easier to get more interop on it
17:16:25 <tantek> agenda+ interop
17:16:38 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro: since we have such an open agenda, i wonder if we could talk more on that
17:16:46 <ben_thatmustbeme> TOPIC: JF2
17:17:00 <tantek> scribenick: ajordan
17:18:09 <sandro> q+
17:18:30 <ajordan> scribe: AJ Jordan
17:18:31 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: two of the guys behind micro.blog ??? RSS and Atom released(?) JSON Feed
17:18:32 <ajordan> ... looking at it there was very little difference, but there are some values differently. most of it is a change in vocabulary
17:18:56 <tantek> s/???/Manton Reece & Brent Simmons, who have implemented
17:19:20 <tantek> ack sandro
17:21:34 <ajordan_> ajordan_ has joined #social
17:21:40 <ben_thatmustbeme> https://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social
17:21:43 <ben_thatmustbeme> oops
17:21:50 <ajordan_> scribenick: ajordan_
17:21:54 <ben_thatmustbeme> http://dissolve.github.io/jf2/#jsonfeed_to_jf2feed
17:23:10 <ajordan> ... I added a section that defines a profile that pretty much matches JSON Feed
17:23:18 <ajordan> ... people can turn microformats into JF2 that way, and can use things like JSON Feed
17:23:22 <ajordan> ... I'd like to publish a new WD of it for that reason
17:23:25 <ajordan> ... let's see if we can unify JSON Feed and JF2 a little more
17:23:28 <ajordan> sandro: great thing to work on ben_thatmustbeme, I'm curious what you mean when you say "pretty much"
17:23:30 <ajordan> ... why can't it be the same?
17:23:33 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: for anyone using JSON Feed you have to break on anything you don't recognize
17:23:35 <ajordan> ... in JSON Feed any extensions have to be prefixed with an _
17:24:07 <sandro> sandro: the _prefix this is an anti-pattern, like x-foo headers
17:24:16 <tantek> q?
17:24:19 <sandro> sandro: also, version numbers?  no thanks!
17:24:35 <ajordan> ... the other is mainly vocabulary. either you have to start adding JF2 vocab that isn't referenced anywhere out of JSON Feed, or you convert it over
17:24:44 <ajordan> ... there's a section on how to convert it
17:25:15 <ajordan> scribenick: ajordan
17:26:12 <ajordan> tantek: great work ben_thatmustbeme on JF2, in particular in finding a profile for JF2 that gets it very close to JSON Feed while keeping it generic AFAICT
17:26:21 <ajordan> ... to the point where essentially it's mostly a property renaming conversion
17:26:32 <ajordan> ... as sandro pointed out this is mostly just a few lines of code
17:26:51 <ajordan> ... generally I think this is an excellent approach to take to kinda bring add'l efforts into interop with our specs
17:27:14 <sandro> q+ to ask about jf2->html & media type
17:27:15 <ajordan> ... we see where you are, we specify things in the direction you're talking about, and we specify how to interop.
17:27:31 <ajordan> ... I really like us saying this publicly
17:27:48 <ajordan> ... don't read issue 49 on JF2 right now, but basically it's a massive flamewar
17:27:56 <ajordan> s/JF2/JSON Feed/
17:28:15 <ajordan> ... where someone said "here's how to fix your spec" instead of trying to work with them
17:28:28 <tantek> q?
17:28:30 <ajordan> ... I think ben_thatmustbeme's approach is better in the long term and builds community better
17:28:31 <tantek> ack sandro
17:28:31 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about jf2->html & media type
17:29:01 <ajordan> sandro: I haven't really been paying attention to JF2 since it didn't seem to matter in the way I saw the universe until recently
17:29:09 <ajordan> ... is there code that converts JF2 to HTML?
17:29:17 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: there certainly can be? I've written some
17:29:42 <ajordan> ... it basically takes HTML microformats and puts it into JSON
17:29:47 <ajordan> ... you could go back to HTML
17:29:55 <ajordan> ... it's completely vocabulary-independent
17:30:05 <ajordan> ... the idea of doing the profile is now you have things because you say "this field'
17:30:19 <ajordan> s/field'/field's `url` has to be a URL/
17:30:26 <ajordan> ... now it becomes much more useful
17:30:48 <ajordan> ... a lot of what aaronpk and ??? have been doing is using additional requirements that haven't been codified everywhere
17:31:00 <ajordan> ... perhaps another profile that says "this is how you represent an object"
17:31:05 <sandro> application/json+jf2feed
17:31:21 <ajordan> sandro: so something could have a media type something like that? if you were passing around?
17:31:35 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: yeah and I actually define that as the media type
17:32:04 <ajordan> sandro: IndieWeb community is fine with microformats but there are lots of people who'd rather pass around JSON
17:32:11 <ajordan> ... this seems like a good bridge between worlds
17:32:28 <ajordan> ... if someone was gonna modify Mastodon to export something that interop'd with IWC stuff
17:32:38 <ajordan> ... the proper way would be to change the HTML
17:32:43 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: Mastodon already has all the markup
17:32:59 <ajordan> ... I can see someone using a separate service that did all that conversion for me
17:33:18 <ajordan> ... just make rel=alternate for this page <some-url>?convert=<this page>
17:33:33 <ajordan> ... then you only have to maintain one codebase cause all it does is run through the standard parsing and convert
17:33:46 <tantek> q?
17:34:15 <tantek> http://dissolve.github.io/jf2/#changes-from-28-july-2016-fpwd-to-this-version
17:34:25 <ajordan> tantek: ben_thatmustbeme you put in a request to publish a new JF2 WD?
17:34:29 <ajordan> ... my next question is the change log
17:34:34 <sandro> q+ to suggest adding media type registration appendix
17:34:55 <tantek> ack sandro
17:34:55 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to suggest adding media type registration appendix
17:35:07 <ajordan> ... Security Considerations is good
17:35:24 <ajordan> sandro: do you want to go ahead and add the media type registration information into this section? that seems reasonable
17:35:32 <ajordan> application/json+jf2feed
17:35:45 <ajordan> s/application/... application/
17:35:51 <ajordan> ... there's an example of how to use it, but there isn't the thing to register it with IANA
17:36:09 <ajordan> tantek: if you look at ActivityStreams I believe that has a registration for a similar media type
17:36:20 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#media-type
17:36:21 <ajordan> ... application/json+as2?
17:36:27 <ajordan> ... probably a good place to copy stuff from
17:36:38 <ajordan> sandro: actually +json goes on the end
17:36:43 <ajordan> ... activity+json
17:36:50 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: I thought the order didn't matter?
17:36:58 <ajordan> sandro: I think the order matters very much
17:37:12 <ajordan> tantek: I think it's just an opaque string and any introspection of that string is just convention?
17:37:16 <ajordan> ... probably an RFC about it
17:37:24 <ajordan> sandro: I think there's an RFC about +xml
17:37:33 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro++
17:37:33 <Loqi> sandro has 43 karma in this channel (50 overall)
17:37:34 <ajordan> ... if it ends in +xml you can parse it as XML
17:37:39 <ajordan> ... probably one for JSON too
17:37:59 <ajordan> tantek: good catch, don't want multiple, possibly malformed MIME types
17:38:27 <ajordan> tantek: would you be okay publishing that working draft? with an Appendix and such?
17:38:47 <ajordan> tantek: sandro does this sound good to you to publish a new WD with the changes you requested?
17:39:13 <tantek> PROPOSED: Publish new jf2 WD including changes requested to fix content-type and add an appendix for the IANA registration of the application/jf2+json content-type
17:39:26 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
17:39:27 <ajordan> +1
17:39:33 <sandro> +1
17:40:51 <tantek> RESOLVED: Publish new jf2 WD including changes requested to fix content-type and add an appendix for the IANA registration of the application/jf2+json content-type
17:40:54 <wilkie> +1
17:41:14 <tantek> agenda?
17:41:24 <ajordan> tantek: CG chairs aren't here so let's go to interop
17:41:24 <tantek> topic: interop
17:41:38 <ajordan> sandro: today I was thinking interop between Mastodon and IWC sites
17:41:46 <ajordan> ... what needs to happen to make that work?
17:41:59 <ajordan> ... obviously there's a bunch of stuff around Webfinger that ben_thatmustbeme and I have been talking about
17:42:05 <sandro> - webfinger
17:42:13 <ajordan> ... without necessarily going into that what are the major ones
17:42:22 <ben_thatmustbeme> q+ to talk about various parts
17:42:40 <tantek> ack ben_thatmustbeme
17:42:40 <Zakim> ben_thatmustbeme, you wanted to talk about various parts
17:42:42 <ajordan> ... salmentions, I get lost as to what they're used for
17:43:01 <ben_thatmustbeme> not sure why my mic isn't working
17:43:21 <ben_thatmustbeme> brb
17:43:27 <ajordan> sandro: because someone asked you a question, that's why your mic isn't working?
17:44:37 <tantek> aside: PTD issue filed for RTD https://github.com/tantek/post-type-discovery/issues/24
17:44:37 <Loqi> [tantek] #24 add a subset algorithm for Response Type Discovery
17:44:48 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: starting with IndieWeb being able to read from Mastodon
17:44:50 <ajordan> ... for context
17:45:06 <ajordan> ... if an IndieWeb site replies to someone on Mastodon they can read any post for the context of where they were
17:45:24 <ajordan> ... the piece that's missing there is if an IndieWeb site replies to Mastodon, they're gonna send a Webmention to Mastodon and not find an endpoint
17:45:41 <ajordan> ... Mastodon just needs a working Webmention endpoint that would take in comments on their posts from outside
17:45:55 <tantek> and that's where Mastodon will need Response Type Discovery to turn the Webmention into a reply, like, repost
17:45:55 <ajordan> ... the other biggest limitation is being able to reply to something that's not on Mastodon
17:46:02 <ajordan> ... you have no way to reply to "a URL"
17:46:10 <ajordan> sandro: can a Mastodon user even see anything outside?
17:46:19 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: it seems they can if you add certain bits to your website?
17:46:28 <ajordan> ... seems that Mastodon only gets posts via WebSub and ???
17:46:48 <ajordan> ... I haven't tried subscribing to a non-Mastodon instance and then replying to it to see if you even can reply
17:47:09 <ajordan> ... the GitHub issues seemed to indicate you _could_ if it had a Salmon endpoint? and if that's there it should show up as they're able to reply to it?
17:47:19 <ajordan> ... right now you can just "mention" someone which is obviously missing
17:47:33 <tantek> q+ to note or adding Webmention discovery as an option / fall back if Salmon is missing
17:47:34 <ajordan> ... and sending Webmentions when they do that I guess would instead be over Salmon
17:47:48 <ajordan> sandro: it sounds like if we're gonna change this on the Mastodon side one would have to add basically h-feed parsing
17:47:51 <ajordan> ... and Webmention
17:47:55 <ajordan> ... into Mastodon
17:48:14 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: I think Mastodon is Ruby right?
17:48:21 <ajordan> ... so I did rewrite the entire Ruby mf2 parser
17:48:28 <ajordan> ... it's much more stable, should do everything they need
17:48:40 <ajordan> ... it's even already included as a dev dep, because it's used for the testing
17:48:53 <tantek> Mastodon already has the mf2 parser in core for testing?
17:48:53 <ajordan> sandro: so we have no idea at this point whether they're amenable to adding these things
17:48:58 <ajordan> ... we could add them to an instance
17:49:12 <ajordan> ... upgrading decentralized systems is so hard... you gotta get everyone on board
17:49:21 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: getting everyone in the same room is tricky too
17:49:33 <ajordan> tantek: seems like a proof of concept would be nice to show usefulness
17:49:43 <ajordan> sandro: yeah having it on some instances and then sending patches seems useful
17:49:53 <ajordan> ... sometimes devs want to be involved early on and sometimes they want to wait
17:50:11 <ajordan> tantek: ben_thatmustbeme have you filed issues on Mastodon based on this analysis?
17:50:25 <ajordan> ... since you've already done a bunch of work getting the mf2 there
17:50:31 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: I started on Micropub support
17:50:48 <ajordan> ... seems like it's an easier piece to tackle and avoids a lot of this stuff since it's just client to server
17:50:58 <ajordan> ... other than that no
17:51:11 <tantek> ack tantek
17:51:11 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to note or adding Webmention discovery as an option / fall back if Salmon is missing
17:51:19 <ajordan> sandro: it'll only participate in sites that offer Salmon, but one would argue there's a case for Salmon and Webmention
17:51:23 <tantek> because Sandro already said it
17:51:28 <ajordan> ... they don't want people to comment on dead sites
17:51:42 <ajordan> ... this brings me back to "what is Salmention for"?
17:51:58 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: Webmention simply says when you create a post you gotta notify who you reference
17:52:05 <ajordan> ... if I reply to you my code notifies your endpoint
17:52:15 <ajordan> ... if someone responds to me they're gonna notify me but it never gets back to you
17:52:21 <ajordan> ... if you want to know the full thread you don't have that info
17:52:33 <ajordan> sandro: it would if A is the first post, B is a reply to that, and C is a reply to that
17:52:37 <ajordan> ... C doesn't get back to A
17:52:44 <ajordan> ... C notifies B via Webmention
17:53:08 <tantek> https://indieweb.org/salmention
17:53:23 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: you've just defined salmention
17:53:38 <ajordan> ... when you get an update, send a Webmention again
17:54:03 <ajordan> sandro: ???
17:54:11 <ajordan> tantek: I think that's the part that's different
17:54:15 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#sending-webmentions-for-updated-posts
17:55:05 <ben_thatmustbeme> https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#updating-existing-webmentions
17:55:07 <ajordan> ... there's a Webmention CRUD protocol which is for updates to your post (stuff that you wrote)
17:55:25 <ajordan> ... salmention expands that and specifies how and when to send mentions for stuff you receive to your post
17:55:31 <ajordan> sandro: through a strange lens
17:55:38 <ajordan> ... when you update a page, you send all the mentions on the page
17:55:56 <ajordan> ... I would say salmention is "when there is a reply, you should link to it from your page too, everything else follows"
17:56:14 <ajordan> tantek: when the post initially sends out Webmentions, it has no responses yet
17:56:20 <ajordan> ... it's a noop
17:56:29 <ajordan> sandro: when B is created, it sends a reply to A
17:56:38 <ajordan> ... when C is created, it's gonna send a mention to B
17:56:53 <ajordan> ... when B gets that Webmention from C it's gonna update the page to include "C is a reply to me"
17:57:06 <ajordan> ... because it's changed its content it's going to send a mention to A (and C)
17:57:10 <ajordan> ... because it's been modified
17:57:30 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: I always interpreted it as "webmention says you _may_ send a webmention again if you send updates"
17:57:37 <ajordan> ... you should if you update your own content
17:57:43 <ajordan> ... you may if you receive from others
17:57:50 <ajordan> ... salmention basically says "you must if you receive from others"
17:57:52 <tantek> https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#sending-webmentions-for-updated-posts
17:58:06 <ajordan> sandro: how do you detect that salmentions are being implmented by peers?
17:58:13 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: you'll be receiving webmentions for post updates
17:58:22 <ajordan> sandro: which as I read the webmention spec you already should do
17:58:30 <ajordan> ... if you're changing a SHOULD to a MUST that's undetectable
17:58:38 <tantek> https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#updating-existing-webmentions
17:58:59 <ajordan> tantek: so here's the link in webmention where it mentions salmentions(?)
17:59:15 <ajordan> ... I think the difference here sandro is, is a webmention sent in response to receiving a webmention
17:59:21 <ajordan> ... which is why it's different for implementations
17:59:38 <ajordan> ... specifically that knowledge of "oh I've got other stuff that's depending on me"
17:59:52 <ajordan> sandro: I don't get it, it seems like you'd have to do that anyway if you're being a good webmention citizen
17:59:59 <ajordan> ... maybe I understand webmention differently somehow
18:00:10 <ajordan> tantek: reading webmention it does allow impl'
18:00:19 <ajordan> s/impl'/impl's to send update only when the content changes/
18:00:21 <ajordan> ... that's intentional
18:00:30 <ajordan> ... you're expanding requirements
18:00:52 <ajordan> ... sending webmentions at all is something implementations aren't required to do
18:00:55 <ajordan> ... they could send mentions for some links but not all and still be conformant
18:01:07 <ajordan> ... sending mentions for stuff you link to but not stuff in comments seems okay
18:01:18 <ajordan> ... e.g. "I don't want to send random links people put in my comments"
18:01:23 <ajordan> ... salmention _does_ require that
18:01:46 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: it does seem that a lot of that stuff made it in the webmention spec
18:02:27 <ajordan> tantek: there's sending a salmention, which is sending a webmention in response to sending a webmention
18:02:39 <ajordan> ... then there's receiving a webmention for something you yourself sent a webmention too
18:02:54 <ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme: there's the additional piece where receiving a webmention might not just be an update to the content
18:03:20 <ajordan> ... if you have links in a comment thread, you may not send webmentions
18:03:31 <ajordan> sandro: so this only comes up in a situation where there's A B C and D?
18:03:37 <ajordan> tantek: no it comes up in A B and C
18:03:43 <ajordan> ... salmentions solve the SWAT0 problem
18:03:49 <ajordan> ... A posts a photo of B
18:03:54 <ajordan> ... tags B in the photo
18:03:57 <ajordan> ... C comments on the photo
18:04:15 <ben_thatmustbeme> ajordan++ for taking a hard day of scribing
18:04:15 <Loqi> ajordan has 4 karma
18:06:48 <ajordan_> tantek: if B comments on A, B sends a webmention to A
18:07:58 <ajordan_> scribenick: ajordan_
18:08:10 <ajordan> ... as a result B gets a salmention that there's a comment on the photo
18:08:11 <ajordan> ... that's the usecase that inspired the protocol
18:08:12 <ajordan> sandro: so A would get notified that B had changed
18:08:14 <ajordan> ... if B included that content from C
18:08:16 <ben_thatmustbeme> If a response to the source URL is shown on the source URL page (e.g. as a comment), then sender should treat that as an update of the source URL and re-send any previously sent Webmentions.
18:08:17 <ajordan> tantek: B doesn't have any content
18:08:20 <ajordan> ... just happens to be in A's post
18:08:22 <ajordan> sandro: B is a user who's in A's post?
18:08:24 <ajordan> tantek: correct
18:08:26 <ajordan> ... C comments on A's post
18:08:28 <ajordan> ... /replied to
18:09:15 <ajordan> sandro: in response to that A changed their content to show a link to that comment?
18:09:17 <ajordan> ... the webmention requirement at that point is that A send a webmention again and that includes B
18:09:27 <ajordan_> tantek: assumption is impl's will do the minimum to get it to work. salmention expands requirements
18:09:43 <tantek> https://indieweb.org/Salmentions
18:11:03 <ajordan_> q+
18:14:18 <ajordan_> tantek: sandro from your description/reading of webmention and trying to see things from your perspective
18:14:31 <ajordan_> ... I see how a lot of what salmention is trying to solve is at least present in the spec
18:14:35 <ajordan_> ... if not completely explicit
18:14:40 <ajordan_> ... webmention is already a REC
18:14:59 <ajordan_> ... one q I'd like to ask is: would adding more details to the sections you've cited just to make it clear that that's the expectation
18:15:14 <ajordan_> ... is that the kind of thing we could do an errata for? would we need webmention 1.1?
18:15:29 <ajordan_> ... I'm asking you sandro since you're the one that pointed out you see this in the existing spec
18:15:41 <ajordan_> sandro: whether there's an eratta or 1.1 has to do with how other people see it
18:15:55 <ajordan_> ... if other people see it as being there we could do eratta
18:16:07 <timbl> timbl has joined #social
18:16:11 <tantek> q?
18:16:17 <tantek> ack ajordan_
18:16:18 <ajordan_> tantek: I vaguely recollect there being something in the test suite about this?
18:18:49 <ajordan_> q+
18:19:08 <tantek> ack ajordan_
18:20:29 <tantek> https://webmention.net/implementation-reports/summary/
18:20:45 <ajordan_> tantek: so if you scroll down to receiver tests
18:20:48 <ajordan_> ... and sender tests
18:20:55 <ajordan_> ... there are tests for salmention extensions
18:21:10 <ben_thatmustbeme> that was just a check box as i remember
18:21:14 <ajordan_> ... so it'll test salmention stuff though as sandro pointed out there seems to be overlap
18:21:29 <ajordan_> ... there are a couple impl's from outside the WG
18:21:57 <ajordan_> sandro: maybe people implemented it and didn't even know they were implementing it then
18:22:10 <ajordan_> tantek: we definitely don't have time to revise the spec by the end of this month
18:22:21 <ajordan_> ... but we'll find out in 1-2 weeks if we get the charter extension
18:22:43 <ajordan_> ... one thing I've been advocating for is that any WG that gets extended do maintenance on their specs
18:23:00 <ajordan_> ... if there are missing pieces we can cross that bridge when we get there
18:23:06 <ajordan_> ... file issues accordingly against webmention
18:23:33 <ajordan_> ... if we do need to add a few words here or there to clarify terminology we can make a judgement call as to whether it's errata or 1.0.1 or 1.1
18:23:47 <ajordan_> ... sandro can double-check this but I believe that would be within the charter's scope?
18:24:11 <ajordan_> ... so if we got extended we'd be allowed to do that. though if we did 1.1 we'd be required to go through the full WD->CR cycle
18:24:14 <tantek> q?
18:24:24 <ajordan_> sandro: I believe that'd be within scope but let's deal with that later
18:24:40 <ben_thatmustbeme> sandro++ good discussion
18:25:35 <tantek> sandro++
18:25:35 <Loqi> sandro has 44 karma in this channel (51 overall)
18:25:49 <ajordan_> sandro++
18:25:49 <Loqi> sandro has 45 karma in this channel (52 overall)
18:25:50 <tantek> ajordan++ for scribing an extra long telcon!
18:25:50 <Loqi> ajordan has 5 karma
18:26:00 <ben_thatmustbeme> ajordan++
18:26:16 <ajordan_> lol
18:26:52 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-06-07
18:27:52 <tantek> trackbot, end meeting
18:27:52 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:27:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ajordan, sandro, ben_thatmustbeme, tantek, rhiaro
18:28:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:28:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/06-social-minutes.html trackbot
18:28:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:28:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items