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15:38:27 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group teleconference
15:38:34 <ivan> Chair: Paul Belfanti
15:38:59 <ivan> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/470FC297-046F-49EC-BBCE-78D4878847DA@ingramcontent.com
15:39:55 <ivan> Regrets: Rick_Johnson, Karen, Rachel_Comerford, George
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15:51:56 <Wolfgang> present+ Wolfgang
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16:01:08 <Avneesh> present+ Avneesh
16:01:42 <ivan> present+
16:01:49 <mattg> present+
16:02:15 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
16:02:18 <tzviya> present+
16:02:22 <BillMcCoy> present+ BillM
16:02:44 <laudrain> present+
16:02:48 <ivan> present+ Brian,  julian_calderazi, Junichi_Yoishii, tzviya
16:02:59 <Wolfgang> present+ Wolfgang
16:03:09 <pbelfanti> present+
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16:03:23 <ivan> present+ garth
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16:05:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> Present+ Bill_Kasdorf
16:06:09 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:06:11 <Zakim> Present: Wolfgang, Avneesh, ivan, mattg, dauwhe, tzviya, BillM, laudrain, Brian, julian_calderazi, luc, junichi_yoishii, junk_camata, ricw, pbelfanti, garth, mateus, Bill_Kasdorf
16:06:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bill_Kasdorf, mateus-teixeira, garth, rkwright, pbelfanti, laudrain, tzviya, BillMcCoy, Brian, jkamata, Wolfgang, mattg, Avneesh, Zakim, RRSAgent, liam, dauwhe, ivan,
16:06:11 <Zakim> ... bigbluehat
16:06:32 <mateus-teixeira> present+
16:06:54 <Makoto_> Makoto_ has joined #pbg
16:07:01 <Dan_Sanicola> Dan_Sanicola has joined #pbg
16:07:01 <Dan_Sanicola> present+
16:07:13 <Leslie> Leslie has joined #pbg
16:08:19 <ivan> Topic: minutes approval
16:08:26 <ivan> scribenick: garth
16:08:34 <Makoto_> I cannot join WebEx.
16:08:40 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2017/05/23-pbg-minutes.html
16:08:51 <garth> Minutes approved.
16:09:29 <ivan> present+ bigbluehat
16:09:30 <ivan> topic: charter update
16:09:46 <garth> … Getting there (on the charter)
16:10:48 <garth> … 2nd round of “is this okay” ends tonight.  Some objections withdrawn.  W3M to meet tommorrow.  Likely in good-ish shape.
16:11:23 <garth> … admin steps todo; call for particpation likely to go out next week.
16:11:39 <BillMcCoy> q+
16:12:22 <garth> … June meeting — under auspices of IG & BG — with WG coming in late.
16:12:31 <garth> … June meeting: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/June_2017_F2F
16:13:05 <ivan> ack BillMcCoy
16:13:26 <takeshi> takeshi has joined #pbg
16:13:59 <garth> BillMcCoy: Wendy will drive charter discussion at W3M.  June meeting to be joint between IG & BG… but still kick-off of WG.
16:14:36 <garth> … Broader communication coming — WG and Publishing@W3C summit
16:14:40 <ivan> present+ leslie
16:14:48 <ivan> present+ makoto
16:14:53 <ivan> present+ mattg
16:14:56 <garth> … (next week)
16:15:11 <ivan> present+ takeshi
16:15:33 <garth> Topic: EPUB test grid proposal
16:16:02 <garth> Brian: to summarize document & proposal
16:16:51 <ivan> s/tommorrow/tomorrow/
16:17:14 <ivan> present+ jkamata, rkwright
16:17:24 <garth> … Current situation with epubtest — BISG, Daisy, IDPF (in the pre-W3C days)
16:17:40 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:17:40 <Zakim> Present: Wolfgang, Avneesh, ivan, mattg, dauwhe, tzviya, BillM, laudrain, Brian, julian_calderazi, luc, junichi_yoishii, junk_camata, ricw, pbelfanti, garth, mateus, Bill_Kasdorf,
16:17:43 <Zakim> ... mateus-teixeira, bigbluehat, leslie, makoto, takeshi, jkamata, rkwright, liam
16:17:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see takeshi, Leslie, Dan_Sanicola, Makoto_, Bill_Kasdorf, mateus-teixeira, garth, rkwright, pbelfanti, laudrain, tzviya, BillMcCoy, Brian, jkamata, Wolfgang, mattg,
16:17:43 <Zakim> ... Avneesh, Zakim, RRSAgent, liam, dauwhe, ivan, bigbluehat
16:17:48 <garth> … Focused on test with EPUB 3
16:18:00 <garth> … BISG endorsed EPUB 3
16:18:31 <garth> … Help Publishing Community to know what works where
16:18:55 <garth> … 1. Defend open standard
16:19:40 <garth> … 2. Influence device and RS to get with the standard
16:19:53 <garth> … 3. Foster better testing and volenteers
16:20:26 <garth> … Must have plan for what happen with test resuls after said is generated
16:20:35 <garth> s/happen/happens/
16:20:55 <garth> s/resuls/results/
16:21:51 <garth> … EPUB 3 support grid originally published in mid-2012
16:22:37 <garth> … resources have become scarce; grid is stale
16:22:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:22:50 <tzviya> q+
16:22:51 <garth> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:22:52 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:23:03 <dauwhe> q+
16:24:03 <tzviya> q-
16:24:37 <garth> BillK: mindful or two uses of grid: showing extent of RS support (fallen into disuse) & resourse for RS developers to self-test and being their systems into compliance
16:24:44 <garth> s/or/of/
16:25:28 <tzviya> q+
16:25:30 <garth> … Is it still useful to publish results? — kinda negative spin
16:25:38 <ivan> ack tzviya
16:26:22 <garth> Tzviya: if it’s a tool for developers, we need to worry less about messaging; needs to be more automated.
16:27:24 <garth> dauwhe: +1 to Tzviya; not a showcase of EPUB 3 features; we need tests; epubcheck has a test suite too; can that be integrated?
16:27:36 <Avneesh> q+
16:27:42 <ivan> ack Dan_Sanicola
16:27:42 <garth> … How much of Spec is really tested?
16:27:46 <ivan> ack dauwhe
16:27:46 <garth> ack dauwhe
16:28:24 <garth> … Do RS vendors have internal tests that could be donated
16:28:41 <garth> (garth thinks those “tests” are generally content coming in from publishers)
16:28:51 <takeshi> q+
16:28:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:28:57 <ivan> ack Avneesh
16:29:21 <garth> Avneesh: initial focus was to show (and push toward) new standard in 2012
16:29:33 <garth> … same could be true of EPUB 4 coming in the future
16:30:17 <garth> … main focus should be on increasing testing (running of tests)
16:30:25 <BillMcCoy> test results are outdated (not latest reading systems) but that is different than saying the test suite is outdated (it is not updated to EPUB 3.1 but I believe it is not out of date for EPUB 3.0/3.0.1)
16:30:54 <ivan> q+
16:31:01 <ivan> ack takeshi
16:31:03 <garth> … Grouping of features seems to have worked well for A11Y tests
16:31:13 <tzviya> the tests are also completely manual
16:31:32 <ivan> q-
16:32:02 <garth> Takeshi: Maybe works for US publishers, but less so for, e.g., Japan
16:32:07 <ivan> q+
16:32:09 <Makoto_> q
16:32:24 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:32:27 <garth> … not enough testing of vertical writing, e.g.
16:33:00 <garth> BillK: previous comments were on mainstream tests, not A11Y — the latter working well and needing to be published.
16:33:36 <garth> … don’t want any changes to undermine A11Y testing
16:33:56 <garth> … Test suite is not out of date, it’s the tested RS’s that are
16:34:01 <garth> q?
16:34:54 <garth> Makoto: There is a Japanese test suite, should this be integrated?  But may be too focused on locale-relevant issues.
16:35:09 <garth> q?
16:36:00 <garth> PaulB: need to solid foundation before adding too many locale specifics.
16:36:16 <Brian> q+
16:36:36 <garth> Ivan: Need to find a way to work with W3C web testing (HTML, CSS, et al)
16:36:48 <dauwhe> http://testthewebforward.org
16:37:08 <laudrain> q+
16:37:12 <ivan> ack ivan
16:37:12 <garth> ack ivan
16:37:12 <tzviya> here is what the DPUB-ARIA test suite looks like https://w3c.github.io/test-results/dpub-aria/all.html
16:37:24 <ivan> ack Brian
16:37:52 <garth> Brian: BISG could support more limited testing/tests (automation would help), but why are we doing that?
16:37:56 <tzviya> q+
16:38:36 <ivan> ack laudrain
16:38:41 <garth> … BISG focus on US could be an issue, and now eBooks in 170+ countries.
16:38:43 <Makoto_> Japanese testsuite (denosho lab)  http://densholab.jp/lab/RScheck/list.html
16:39:20 <garth> Luc: Test suite used regularly at Hachette to test RS’s — both features and regressions
16:39:23 <rkwright> q+
16:39:54 <Makoto_> Test result of reading systems widely used in Japan http://densholab.jp/lab/RScheck/result.html
16:40:20 <ivan> ack tzviya
16:40:25 <garth> … +1 to W3C testing
16:41:01 <garth> Tzviya: testing will be requied for going forward in the W3C
16:41:06 <Makoto_> I am not sure if the Japanese test is automated.
16:41:14 <garth> q?
16:41:15 <ivan> ack rkwright
16:41:28 <Makoto_> I think that human testers to examine visual output.
16:42:39 <ivan> q?
16:42:40 <garth> rkwright: Very costly to build automated test suites (invalidated by underlying Web changes), tend to be atomic tests, but real world harder to test
16:42:54 <dauwhe> q+
16:43:00 <ivan> ack dauwhe
16:43:35 <Brian> q+
16:43:37 <garth> dauwhe: Should have conversation with Jeffery ??? we Web testing; Dave could contact
16:43:41 <garth> s/we/re/
16:43:44 <Makoto_> Follow BiB/i links in http://densholab.jp/lab/RScheck/list.html for rendering in browsers.
16:43:47 <tzviya> and shane mccarron
16:44:03 <ivan> ack Brian
16:44:21 <dauwhe> s/Jeffrey ???/Geoffrey Sneddon/
16:45:14 <garth> Brian: agreement that current manual approach won’t really work; need to understand the “why” to know which way to move; pushing the info shouldn’t be end of process.
16:46:02 <garth> pbelfanti: Next steps?
16:46:25 <garth> Brain: Need sub-group to come up specific proposal (Dave, Brian, Tzviya, …)
16:46:42 <ivan> Topic: ISO related issues
16:46:48 <ivan> s/Brain/Brian/
16:47:12 <garth> Luc: In contact with EU folks
16:47:29 <garth> … re European A11Y
16:47:58 <garth> … will bring back results to this group
16:48:13 <garth> … Need to be more clear on what’s going on with ISO process
16:49:18 <garth> … To be aware of A11Y for EPUB 1.0 or 1.1 standardizations
16:49:55 <Makoto_> I have already posted a sequence of emails about this.  They are linked from the CG(?) web page.
16:49:58 <garth> … Need to make sure the EU does something non-aligned
16:50:00 <Makoto_> What else is needed?
16:51:10 <garth> Makoto: EPUB 3.0.1 revision to revise to TS to get 3.0.1
16:51:18 <ivan> present+ Michaela_Philipzen
16:51:34 <garth> … Drafts coming
16:51:43 <garth> … 3.0.1 revision is on track
16:51:45 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:51:45 <Zakim> Present: Wolfgang, Avneesh, ivan, mattg, dauwhe, tzviya, BillM, laudrain, Brian, julian_calderazi, luc, junichi_yoishii, junk_camata, ricw, pbelfanti, garth, mateus, Bill_Kasdorf,
16:51:49 <Zakim> ... mateus-teixeira, bigbluehat, leslie, makoto, takeshi, jkamata, rkwright, liam, Michaela_Philipzen
16:51:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see takeshi, Leslie, Dan_Sanicola, Makoto_, Bill_Kasdorf, mateus-teixeira, garth, rkwright, pbelfanti, laudrain, tzviya, BillMcCoy, jkamata, Wolfgang, mattg, Avneesh,
16:51:49 <Zakim> ... Zakim, RRSAgent, liam, dauwhe, ivan, bigbluehat
16:52:04 <ivan> present+ Dan_Sanicola
16:52:11 <garth> … Need to path to A11Y 1.0 or 1.1 standardization
16:52:21 <garth> … Should be new work item proposal
16:53:11 <garth> … The resolution will be publicly visible when submitted
16:54:14 <ivan> scribenick: ivan
16:54:30 <ivan> luc: we should synchronize between the ISO work and what the EU is expecting
16:54:34 <ivan> Makoto_: I am not sure
16:54:40 <Avneesh> q+
16:54:47 <ivan> luc: I will try to collect information and share those
16:55:18 <ivan> Avneesh: makoto you are going forward on the 19th; is there a decision form this group?
16:55:25 <ivan> Makoto_: I need a formal endorsement
16:55:36 <ivan> … I want to be sure that people are not against
16:55:53 <tzviya> ack av
16:55:54 <ivan> Avneesh: if this group cannot decide before the 19th, it is still all right
16:56:20 <ivan> Makoto_: I have already informed a number of people; some countries are already aware
16:56:45 <ivan> Avneesh: iso was a high priority for us; are we discussing again whether we want to do it, or only the modalities?
16:57:02 <ivan> Makoto_: the normal process is the most obvious option
16:57:13 <ivan> … the faster one is not an option any more
16:57:22 <ivan> … we have to submit a new work item
16:57:36 <ivan> Avneesh: is this group agreeing to go to iso?
16:57:42 <laudrain> +1
16:57:45 <ivan> … if so, the only problem is how to execute it
16:57:49 <tzviya> q+
16:57:57 <ivan> luc: I support it
16:58:18 <ivan> tzviya: billm has mentioned there are other work, I want to be sure they are coordinated
16:58:27 <ivan> Makoto_: yes, dr. Cho will come to Japan
16:58:41 <laudrain> q+
16:58:49 <ivan> tzviya: I am unaware of the iso process; this is all in coordination with the w3c process
16:58:50 <tzviya> ack tz
16:58:53 <ivan> Makoto_: I believe
16:59:06 <ivan> … I am not sure of w3c process
16:59:32 <ivan> … but this will not be a w3c official document, only a report of the bg or the cg
16:59:32 <ivan> luc: what is the expected timing for a new work item
17:00:03 <ivan> Makoto_: i prepare a new work item, submit it to member bodies, then a ballot with 5 bodies approval
17:00:09 <ivan> … then 5 experts who work to
17:00:19 <ivan> … then the epub cg prepare a draft technical specification
17:00:25 <ivan> … that is about 3 months
17:00:37 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #pbg
17:00:42 <ivan> … after the completion of accessibility 1.1 will 7-8 months will be needed
17:00:56 <ivan> … if we use 1.0 we can start right now, but then to revise it later
17:01:00 <Avneesh> q+
17:01:04 <ivan> luc: about a year as a whole
17:01:06 <ivan> ack laudrain
17:01:41 <ivan> Avneesh: we can not resolve today, but we could a dedicated call before th 19th
17:01:52 <ivan> … we only need the blessing from this group
17:02:03 <ivan> … a small group will work on the details
17:02:38 <Julian_Calderazi> Julian_Calderazi has joined #pbg
17:03:20 <ivan> ack Avneesh
17:04:06 <ivan> pbelfanti: a formal cfc will be issued
17:04:44 <ivan> adjurned
17:04:45 <laudrain> laudrain has left #pbg
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17:09:10 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
17:09:32 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:09:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/06-pbg-minutes.html ivan
17:10:01 <ivan> zakim, bye
17:10:01 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Wolfgang, Avneesh, ivan, mattg, dauwhe, tzviya, BillM, laudrain, Brian, julian_calderazi, luc, junichi_yoishii, junk_camata,
17:10:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
17:10:04 <Zakim> ... ricw, pbelfanti, garth, mateus, Bill_Kasdorf, mateus-teixeira, bigbluehat, leslie, makoto, takeshi, jkamata, rkwright, liam, Michaela_Philipzen, Dan_Sanicola
17:10:07 <Julian_Calderazi> Julian_Calderazi has left #pbg
17:10:07 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
17:10:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items