IRC log of ag on 2017-05-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:26:41 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ag
13:26:41 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/30-ag-irc
13:26:43 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:26:46 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
13:26:46 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
13:26:46 [trackbot]
Date: 30 May 2017
13:26:46 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
13:26:51 [AWK]
present: AWK
13:26:57 [AWK]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:26:57 [Zakim]
Present: AWK
13:27:01 [AWK]
Chair: Joshue
13:27:32 [AWK]
agenda+ ACT TF Update
13:27:57 [AWK]
agenda+ Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results
13:28:21 [AWK]
agenda+ orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results
13:29:17 [AWK]
agenda+ change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10
13:29:31 [AWK]
Zakim, agenda?
13:29:31 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
13:29:32 [Zakim]
6. Resize Content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/ResizeContent-issue77/ [from interaccess]
13:29:32 [Zakim]
7. ACT TF Update [from AWK]
13:29:32 [Zakim]
8. Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results [from AWK]
13:29:32 [Zakim]
9. orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results [from AWK]
13:29:32 [Zakim]
10. change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10 [from AWK]
13:29:42 [AWK]
Zakim, close item 6
13:29:42 [Zakim]
agendum 6, Resize Content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/ResizeContent-issue77/, closed
13:29:44 [AWK]
Zakim, agenda?
13:29:44 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:29:44 [Zakim]
7. ACT TF Update [from AWK]
13:29:44 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
13:29:44 [Zakim]
7. ACT TF Update [from AWK]
13:29:44 [Zakim]
8. Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results [from AWK]
13:29:44 [Zakim]
9. orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results [from AWK]
13:29:45 [Zakim]
10. change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10 [from AWK]
13:41:34 [jeanne]
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14:32:32 [Joshue108]
trackbot, start meeting
14:32:35 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:32:38 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:32:38 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:32:38 [trackbot]
Date: 30 May 2017
14:32:38 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
14:32:49 [Joshue108]
Chair: Joshue/Andrew
14:32:55 [Joshue108]
zakim, agenda?
14:32:55 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:32:56 [Zakim]
7. ACT TF Update [from AWK]
14:32:56 [Zakim]
8. Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results [from AWK]
14:32:56 [Zakim]
9. orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results [from AWK]
14:32:57 [Zakim]
10. change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10 [from AWK]
14:46:16 [AWK]
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14:46:18 [Detlev]
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14:46:29 [AWK]
rrsagent, set logs public
14:46:34 [AWK]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:46:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/30-ag-minutes.html AWK
14:46:56 [AWK]
zakim, agenda?
14:46:56 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:46:57 [Zakim]
7. ACT TF Update [from AWK]
14:46:57 [Zakim]
8. Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results [from AWK]
14:46:57 [Zakim]
9. orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results [from AWK]
14:46:57 [Zakim]
10. change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10 [from AWK]
14:49:45 [AWK]
regrets+ Lauriat, Mike_Pluke, Nurthen, EA_Draffan, bruce_bailey
14:52:13 [ChrisLoiselle]
present+
14:52:15 [laura]
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14:52:53 [Wayne]
Wayne has joined #ag
14:54:53 [Joshue108]
present+ Joshue108
14:55:20 [Kathy]
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14:55:30 [Kathy]
present+ Kathy
14:55:42 [MelanieP]
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14:56:02 [jasonjgw]
present+ jasonjgw
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14:58:29 [Wilco]
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14:58:37 [Detlev]
scribe: Detlev
14:59:05 [Detlev]
present+ Detlev
14:59:05 [davidmacdonald]
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14:59:24 [davidmacdonald]
Present +davidmacdonald
14:59:33 [laura]
present+ Laura
14:59:36 [Wilco]
present+
14:59:43 [ChrisLoiselle]
I'll do June 27th as fallback scribe if need be too.
14:59:49 [Joshue108]
present+ JakeAbma
14:59:52 [JakeAbma]
presnet+ JAkeAbma
14:59:53 [MelanieP]
present+ MelanieP
14:59:54 [Makoto]
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15:00:04 [Wayne]
present+ wayne
15:00:08 [Makoto]
present+ Makoto
15:01:03 [Detlev]
zakim, next item
15:01:03 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "ACT TF Update" taken up [from AWK]
15:01:19 [davidmacdonald]
Present+ davidmacdonald
15:01:20 [MichaelC]
present+
15:01:43 [Detlev]
Wilco: ACT TF has published FPWD, not so much feedback so far
15:02:10 [JF]
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15:02:15 [Wilco]
https://wilcofiers.github.io/wai-act-quickref/
15:02:22 [JF]
Present+ JF
15:02:25 [Detlev]
..couple of requests: TF request advice on rules repository - work on building it has started
15:02:31 [lisa]
trouble joining
15:02:37 [gowerm]
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15:02:44 [Wilco]
https://wilcofiers.github.io/act-rules/rules/ACT-R1.html
15:02:44 [kirkwood_]
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15:02:49 [Detlev]
...trying to figure out how to integrate conformance rules into quickref
15:02:54 [Joshue108]
q+
15:02:55 [Ryladog]
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15:03:22 [Detlev]
...link to draft of what a conformance rule should look like, using markdown formatting
15:03:28 [gowerm]
present+ MikeGower
15:03:32 [JF]
agenda?
15:03:37 [lisa]
made it
15:03:40 [Ryladog]
Present+ Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:03:43 [Detlev]
...second thing is a list of test case repositories
15:03:55 [kirkwood_]
present+ kirkwood
15:04:09 [Wilco]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/conformance-testing/wiki/Testing_Resources
15:04:12 [Detlev]
...TF is collecting published snippeds of HTML code with good/bad a11y examples
15:04:26 [KimDirks]
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15:04:46 [Detlev]
...there is a buch there already like from openAJAX alliance Quail? Google Chrome, Ben2Web
15:05:24 [Detlev]
..tell TF if it is missing anything - wants to build up a big repository so automated test tools can be compared to the repository
15:05:35 [Joshue108]
ack me
15:05:39 [Mike_Elledge]
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15:05:45 [Detlev]
Josh: specificall for automated tools?
15:05:55 [Mike_Elledge]
Present+ Mike Elledge
15:06:01 [KimDirks]
Present+ KimDirks
15:06:25 [Detlev]
Wilco: not exclusively - includes best practices, also from training libraries, say from Deque Uiversity
15:06:29 [Alex_Li]
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15:06:40 [Detlev]
zakim, next item
15:06:40 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results" taken up [from AWK]
15:07:13 [Joshue108]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results
15:07:19 [Detlev]
Josh: look at feedback to help SC
15:07:42 [steverep]
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15:07:53 [steverep]
present+steverep
15:08:08 [Detlev]
Lisa: Was put together with Jeanne and Michael Cooper in relation to the concept of 'pillars'
15:08:25 [Detlev]
...trying to get something in that gives you a feel for the topic
15:08:56 [Joshue108]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/provide-support_ISSUE-32/guidelines/sc/21/provide-support.html
15:08:57 [Detlev]
...synergy would be if there is more details in the supplementary info
15:09:18 [Detlev]
...improvement and improved understanding would come in WCAG 2.1
15:09:22 [marcjohlic]
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15:09:38 [Detlev]
...not much work done so far on the definitions
15:09:50 [Joshue108]
q?
15:09:54 [Detlev]
...should become more precise and clearer
15:09:56 [JF]
Q+ to ask where the latest final language is?
15:10:23 [Detlev]
...if you don't have complex content then you don't need to do anything
15:10:40 [Detlev]
...so comprehension support is only meant for complex contetn
15:11:06 [Detlev]
...if you feel there should be a different presentation or note, tell Lisa
15:12:18 [Detlev]
...should cover all sorts of situations related to complex situations - if necessary individual items in the list could be dropped - what is important to know now is if the general direction is OK
15:12:32 [Detlev]
...awar ethat more work is needed
15:13:11 [Joshue108]
q?
15:13:16 [Detlev]
Josh: the main thrust is that support is provided for numerical complex info, long texts etc
15:14:05 [Detlev]
Lisa: includes summaries, highlighte dkeywords etc.. is often badly done, but for more specifi advice you will have to go for the supplementary info
15:14:36 [lisa]
maybe michael want to add to hat I said?
15:14:53 [Joshue108]
ack jf
15:14:53 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to ask where the latest final language is?
15:15:19 [lisa]
current text https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/provide-support_ISSUE-32/guidelines/sc/21/provide-support.html
15:15:31 [Detlev]
JF: Has been struggling with this SC - what is the most current text? SC tries to solve a lot of different things in one SC
15:15:57 [Detlev]
...controls is very different from providing summaries
15:16:31 [Detlev]
...complex interactions like custom controls is very different from tackling complex content - should that be split into two SCs?
15:16:34 [Wayne]
q
15:16:37 [davidmacdonald]
q+
15:16:44 [Wayne]
q?
15:16:53 [Detlev]
Lisa: there may be not enough time for that
15:16:54 [Joshue108]
+1 to JF
15:17:12 [Detlev]
JF: Better prodie something solid then rush with this one
15:17:23 [Wayne]
q+
15:17:24 [Joshue108]
q+ Wayne to say
15:17:35 [AWK]
s/prodie/produce
15:18:05 [Detlev]
Lisa: Tackling complex info is probably the most important - providing a list of 'one of the following' was an attempt to tell authors what the ycould do, leaving loopholes
15:18:07 [Joshue108]
q+ to say that this is useful and may be good split up
15:18:34 [Detlev]
Lisa: So it is menat for people who want to do the right thing, accepting the loopholes
15:18:49 [JF]
Q+
15:18:50 [Joshue108]
zakim, ping me in 12
15:18:51 [Zakim]
ok, Joshue108
15:19:24 [Detlev]
Lisa: If we lose pulling them together it is difficult to address dyscalculia
15:19:56 [Detlev]
Josh: Why is it not called out directly (Dyscalculia) or difficult to address?
15:20:03 [AWK]
regrets+ pietro
15:20:46 [Detlev]
Lisa: Giving users some way out (alternative words, keywords) can prevent dyscalculia
15:21:17 [AndroUser2]
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15:21:29 [Detlev]
Lisa: It is a burden since it makes you think about new user groups and requirements - if it is dropped it does not surface in WCAG 2.1
15:21:30 [Joshue108]
ack david
15:21:32 [kirkwood]
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15:22:15 [Detlev]
DMD: Maybe one SC with two sections
15:23:13 [Detlev]
DMD: Discussion of wording suggestions in Survey
15:23:22 [Joshue108]
ack wayne
15:23:22 [Zakim]
Wayne, you wanted to say
15:23:29 [laura]
q+ to say: If we want to combine per John’s suggestion…maybe combine the 2 first bullets as the both deal with summary? And then explain in the understanding doc and techniques.
15:23:43 [Detlev]
Wayne: Unsure how th ecode level semantics would work (?)
15:24:02 [Detlev]
...how is th eauthor going to include the semantic markup for this
15:24:29 [kirkwood]
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15:25:00 [Detlev]
Lisa: The semantics that is being made (ARIA for Coga) offers ways of including alternative wordings, alternatvie for directions etc., but that would be at Technique level
15:25:07 [Detlev]
Wayne: Where is that?
15:25:15 [MichaelC]
https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/
15:25:16 [Detlev]
Lisa: (looking)
15:25:28 [kirkwood]
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15:25:38 [Joshue108]
ack me
15:25:38 [Zakim]
Joshue, you wanted to say that this is useful and may be good split up
15:26:35 [Detlev]
Josh: Suggestions to break this SC up seem relate dto testability - looks like a triple A thing right now, but a good idea, should be firmed up
15:26:39 [Joshue108]
ack jf
15:27:13 [Detlev]
JF: Concern 1: Building SC with loopholes
15:27:45 [Joshue108]
q?
15:27:52 [Detlev]
Concern 2: ARIA for coga is very much draft proposal currently - authors need something that is fir for use today
15:28:06 [Detlev]
Lisa: nothing in the SC relies on ARIA for coga
15:28:24 [Joshue108]
ack laura
15:28:24 [Zakim]
laura, you wanted to say: If we want to combine per John’s suggestion…maybe combine the 2 first bullets as the both deal with summary? And then explain in the understanding doc
15:28:27 [Zakim]
... and techniques.
15:28:56 [Detlev]
Laura: If it should be shorter the first two bullets might be lumped together (both concerne dwith summaries)
15:29:39 [Detlev]
Lisa: This would make it more confusing - you have a chart for complex numerical info and a summary for long texts so these are different things
15:30:10 [Joshue108]
q?
15:30:18 [Detlev]
Lisa: would make it shorter but less clear
15:30:33 [Wayne]
q+
15:30:49 [Joshue108]
ack way
15:30:50 [Zakim]
Joshue108, you asked to be pinged at this time
15:31:46 [jasonjgw]
q+
15:31:50 [Detlev]
Wayne: Will have to look at it in detail, find it a bit confusing - there is ambiguity in the ways browsers handle (?)
15:32:07 [Detlev]
Josh: walk through concerns in survey
15:32:14 [Joshue108]
ack jas
15:32:56 [Joshue108]
+1 to AAA for this.
15:33:04 [Detlev]
Jason: Details are in written comments - the essence is that while all techniques ar evaluable, they are not broadly applicable to the web as a whole, so they seem to belong to level AAA
15:33:47 [Detlev]
...more work would be needed to make it feasible to be applied to the web in general and then be positioned on level A or AA
15:34:16 [Wayne]
There are many ambiguities within W3C standards. How layout is accomplished at the borwser level varies across browsers and there is no contradiction with the HTML or CSS standards. The ambiguity here is that this example is confusing.
15:34:42 [Detlev]
...issues arise when this is applied to web content, would be very different in different contexts and with different types of content - so the applicability would need to be specified a lot more
15:35:23 [Detlev]
Lisa: There are clear definitions, like texts above 300 words would be defined as long, needing a summary
15:35:47 [Detlev]
...clear that a better definition for complex numerical info is still needed
15:36:04 [Ryladog]
I would prefer to see this split up into several distinct SC, and not at Level AAA. I would prefer to see those that can be, placed at Level AA.
15:36:05 [Detlev]
...why would text length definitions not be enough?
15:37:01 [Detlev]
Jason: There are internationalization concerns; what is the summary supposed to achieve?
15:38:03 [Detlev]
Lisa: There can be bad summaries but that is a separate issue - but summary is widely applicable
15:38:45 [Joshue108]
zakim, agenda?
15:38:45 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
15:38:46 [Zakim]
8. Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results [from AWK]
15:38:46 [Zakim]
9. orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results [from AWK]
15:38:46 [Zakim]
10. change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10 [from AWK]
15:38:58 [Detlev]
Josh: scope needs to be narrowed - lots of useful commehnts to work with
15:39:07 [Detlev]
Lisa: please update your comments
15:39:12 [Detlev]
zakim, next item
15:39:12 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results" taken up [from AWK]
15:39:37 [Detlev]
zakim, take up item 10
15:39:37 [Zakim]
agendum 10. "change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10" taken up [from AWK]
15:39:55 [MichaelC]
zakim, close item 8
15:39:55 [Zakim]
agendum 8, Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results, closed
15:39:58 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:39:58 [Zakim]
9. orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results [from AWK]
15:40:11 [Detlev]
DMD "owns this guy" :)
15:40:40 [Detlev]
DMD: Comments were addressed
15:41:06 [Joshue108]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/change-of-content_ISSUE-2/guidelines/sc/21/change-of-content.html
15:41:11 [Detlev]
..editorial comments have been addressed, SC has been updated
15:41:54 [Alex_Li]
q+
15:41:55 [Detlev]
Josh: Look at changes, feel free to get in touch with David
15:42:03 [AWK]
q+
15:42:20 [Detlev]
Michael: comment "screen orientation" instead of just "orientation"
15:42:33 [Detlev]
DMD: will change that
15:43:23 [Joshue108]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results
15:44:09 [Joshue108]
ack alex
15:44:17 [Alex_Li]
q-
15:44:21 [Detlev]
Alex: Which one are we talking about ?
15:44:25 [Joshue108]
ack awk
15:44:26 [Ryladog]
q+
15:44:29 [Detlev]
MichaelC: change of content
15:44:48 [Detlev]
AWK: Put in some scenarios to test out the SC
15:45:22 [Detlev]
AWK: when submitting a form and you go elsewhere then th eSC would not apply
15:46:05 [Detlev]
...if you put things in the cart you get a live regions update but would you need another update "your cart has been updated"
15:46:44 [Detlev]
DMD: if the cart content increases, a notification would be fine (also without live region)
15:46:47 [Joshue108]
q?
15:47:07 [Detlev]
AWK: what is the requirement for "programmatic notification"?
15:47:37 [Detlev]
DMD: AT has to be able to determine that things have changed - we might add language to improve understanding
15:48:15 [Detlev]
AWK: if you scroll around page and new content is added is this just a live region issue or doe si tnee da separate announcement?
15:48:20 [Joshue108]
q+ to ask if Prog notif is suitable here - would notification be sufficient as prog deter is in the qualifiying statements
15:48:31 [Detlev]
DMD: brief one: like "new content added"
15:48:45 [Joshue108]
zakim, ping me 12 mins
15:48:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ping me 12 mins', Joshue108
15:48:49 [Joshue108]
zakim, ping me 12
15:48:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ping me 12', Joshue108
15:49:00 [Detlev]
AWK: if it updates frequently in differnet places how would that be handled?
15:49:20 [MichaelC]
q+ to say s/programmatically determinable/programmatically determined/
15:49:21 [Joshue108]
zakim, ping me 10
15:49:21 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ping me 10', Joshue108
15:49:26 [Joshue108]
zakim,ping me 10
15:49:26 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ping me 10', Joshue108
15:49:32 [Detlev]
DMD: there was an exception "more than 5 times a minute" which was taken out due to sme responses
15:49:38 [gowerm]
q+
15:49:45 [MichaelC]
zakim, ping me in 10 minutes to tell Joshue108 his time is up
15:49:45 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC
15:49:48 [Detlev]
AWK: So then you would not have to do anything?
15:49:51 [Detlev]
DMD: No
15:50:26 [Detlev]
DMD: other people will ask the same question, maybe it needs exceptions, or narrowing the SC to user-activated things
15:50:44 [Detlev]
...but that would nit serve the community as well as covering any changes
15:50:47 [Alex_Li]
can you define what is an action taken?
15:51:03 [Detlev]
...the alternative would be to reintroduce frequent update sexception
15:51:35 [Detlev]
DMD: would a big clock not fail 2.2.2? Probably not?
15:51:56 [Detlev]
Josh: How would cange of content relate to client-side error validation?
15:51:57 [AWK]
AWK; also the clock is essential for a greenwich mean time page
15:51:58 [jasonjgw]
q+
15:52:14 [Joshue108]
ack ryla
15:52:19 [Detlev]
DMD: Yes, would produce message "errors on page, please review" or similar
15:52:31 [Joshue108]
s/sexception/exception
15:52:38 [AWK]
regrets+ Alastair
15:52:51 [Wayne]
q+
15:52:57 [Detlev]
Katie: We have been looking for that - the exception for frequent changes seems useful
15:53:06 [Joshue108]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results
15:53:06 [Detlev]
DMD: Is in the survey
15:54:02 [Detlev]
DMD: reading Detlev's concern in survey
15:54:19 [Detlev]
DMD: reading MichaelCs concern in survey
15:54:45 [Detlev]
Katie: Can we come up with a number, like 10 per minute?
15:55:08 [Joshue108]
ack josh
15:55:08 [Zakim]
Joshue, you wanted to ask if Prog notif is suitable here - would notification be sufficient as prog deter is in the qualifiying statements
15:55:43 [Detlev]
Josh: wondered if 'programmatic' should be dropped from notification
15:56:01 [Detlev]
DMD: is needed
15:56:26 [gowerm]
aria-live roles: timer https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/roles#timer
15:56:33 [Detlev]
DMD: Cna be widened, better explained, but generally looks good
15:56:40 [Alex_Li]
q+
15:56:41 [Detlev]
Josh: things it is good to go
15:56:42 [Joshue108]
ack mich
15:56:42 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to say s/programmatically determinable/programmatically determined/
15:56:49 [gowerm]
marquee https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/roles#marquee
15:57:10 [Detlev]
MichaelC: "programmatically determinable" should be "programmatically determined"
15:57:55 [Joshue108]
ack gower
15:58:12 [Detlev]
gowerm: Pasted things that can be applied to live region
15:58:30 [AWK]
q+ to suggest change from "The user has been advised of the behavior before using the control" to "The user has been advised of the behavior before or as a result of using the control"
15:58:31 [Detlev]
...marquee - migh tbe useful
15:59:05 [Detlev]
gowerm: time addresses AWK's page scenario
15:59:15 [Detlev]
timer not time
15:59:46 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you asked to be pinged at this time to tell Joshue108 his time is up
16:00:04 [Detlev]
Alex: There is already a realtime exception in 2.2.2 - why not copy that?
16:00:16 [Joshue108]
zakim, close queue
16:00:16 [Zakim]
ok, Joshue108, the speaker queue is closed
16:00:31 [Detlev]
DMD (weighing relevance of exception)
16:00:45 [steverep]
q+
16:01:22 [Detlev]
gowerm: caution: in situation where info is added as in this IRC the exception should apply
16:01:39 [Detlev]
DMD (editing)
16:02:50 [jasonjgw]
q?
16:02:51 [Detlev]
Josh: goes in the right direction, issue scan be ironed out
16:03:12 [Joshue108]
ack jaso
16:04:13 [Detlev]
Jason: Will look at revised versions, not clear what is required when DOM is changed - should require to distinguish between significant and insignificant changes,
16:04:33 [gowerm]
David, I think you can have a technique that flags with role="timer"
16:04:36 [gowerm]
q+
16:05:25 [Detlev]
...if there are several updates occuring (atomic) only one update might be needed, needs to be clarified what needs to be done on top of updating the DOM in the browser, that the changes are important enough for the user to know about
16:05:46 [Detlev]
...some update might be part of the same change so that needs to be taken into account
16:06:14 [Detlev]
DMD: distinction between essential (prinary purpose of the page) and inessential is already there
16:07:12 [Detlev]
atomic vs. non-atomic: if true, it presents the whole changed region to the user ("you have 15 sec left" instead of just "15"
16:07:47 [Detlev]
...we can include something "where the change has been sufficiently descriptive" (?)
16:08:01 [Detlev]
..weary to put atomic / non-atomic in it
16:08:13 [Detlev]
Josh: should go into techniques
16:08:52 [Detlev]
Jason: When authors provide notification od each change they might thing they have satisfied that - that's a danger
16:09:21 [Joshue108]
ack wayne
16:09:21 [Detlev]
...programmatic notification that changes are significant
16:09:23 [Wayne]
Does notification cause visual loss of place in the document? Can you turn notification off?
16:10:30 [Detlev]
DMD: no requirement for a visual notification, where it exists it has to be programmatic also
16:11:13 [Detlev]
There is a link to the coga SC Feedback
16:11:53 [marcjohlic2]
present+ marcjohlic
16:12:02 [Detlev]
Josh: Good issue that notifications may not be visible / noticeable when magnification is used
16:12:15 [Detlev]
DMD: focus in this here is programmatic notification
16:12:59 [Detlev]
DMD: notifications (noted by Wayne) may also be obstructive visually
16:13:22 [gowerm]
David, possible exception "The change of content results from auto-updating content that is an essential part of an activity"
16:13:29 [Detlev]
DMD: no requirement here to move the focus to th enew information
16:13:30 [Joshue108]
ack alex
16:13:42 [Ryladog]
q+
16:14:17 [Detlev]
Alex: (reads SC text - confirmed): what means "action taken"?
16:14:26 [Detlev]
DMD: a user action
16:14:48 [Detlev]
Alex: any action of the end user?
16:15:14 [Detlev]
DMD: If the content changes - that would not happen as a result of scrolling or moving the cursor
16:15:48 [Ryladog]
+1 to adding "user" in front of action
16:15:55 [Detlev]
Alex: at least chang eto "user action" - also be cleare about defining what constitutes an action
16:16:31 [Detlev]
DMD: "user action that changes the content" - so the notification confirms that
16:16:50 [Detlev]
Josh: what about changes of content without user action?
16:17:28 [Joshue108]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/change-of-content_ISSUE-2/guidelines/sc/21/change-of-content.html
16:17:51 [Detlev]
DMD: ..OR "that conveys information" - so it is not only user-initiated
16:18:05 [Detlev]
8discussion of details of wording of the SC
16:18:34 [AWK]
ack AWK
16:18:34 [Zakim]
AWK, you wanted to suggest change from "The user has been advised of the behavior before using the control" to "The user has been advised of the behavior before or as a result of
16:18:35 [gowerm]
"The change of content results from auto-updating content that is an essential part of an activity"
16:18:35 [Detlev]
DMD: updated SC text
16:18:38 [Zakim]
... using the control"
16:18:50 [Wayne]
+1 to include now, leave editorial changes to David's discression.
16:19:08 [Detlev]
gowerm: pasted in wording suggrstion above
16:19:35 [davidmacdonald]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/change-of-content_ISSUE-2/guidelines/sc/21/change-of-content.html
16:19:48 [Mike_Elledge]
Good luck, Wayne!
16:21:27 [AWK]
"The user has been advised of the change of content before or as a result of using a control"
16:21:30 [Detlev]
AWK: goal is to infom the user about important changes - worried about second bullet
16:22:19 [Detlev]
AWK: would allow a web page that pops up a dialogue annoncng the change rather then using aria-live on a car, or similar
16:22:36 [gowerm]
q+
16:22:48 [Detlev]
..."advised of the behaviour" seems strange
16:23:16 [Detlev]
DM (editing, committing changes)
16:23:31 [AWK_]
AWK_ has joined #ag
16:24:54 [Detlev]
Steve: excited and scared by this SC as SR user (because there is a lot of misuse of ARIA) - the SC does not delineate how polite that notification needs to be - is there any way to deal with that?
16:25:23 [Detlev]
DMD: the spec says 'use polite unless the house burns' - so the spec is pretty clear
16:25:44 [Detlev]
Josh: a matter of Techniques
16:26:05 [Detlev]
Steve: fears it is buried in Techniques, would like to see it up front in the SC
16:26:33 [AWK_]
"programmatic notification is provided for each ESSENTIAL change of content.."?
16:26:41 [Detlev]
DMD: you can turn off live-regions
16:27:28 [AWK_]
or adding "essential" inside of "conveys information"?
16:27:35 [Detlev]
Katie: if we include an exception, include times / frequency
16:27:58 [Ryladog]
Add to exception that "or it can be turned off"
16:28:14 [Detlev]
goverm: some techniques refer to leve regions; would like to get it out and get public comments
16:28:15 [marcjohlic2]
+1
16:28:24 [gowerm]
+1
16:28:24 [JF]
+1
16:28:24 [davidmacdonald]
+1
16:28:26 [Detlev]
+1
16:28:28 [AWK_]
+1
16:28:28 [ChrisLoiselle]
+1
16:28:31 [Ryladog]
Add to exception that "or notification can be turned off"
16:28:31 [KimDirks]
+1
16:28:32 [Joshue108]
+1
16:28:33 [laura]
+1
16:28:33 [Ryladog]
+1
16:28:34 [JakeAbma]
+1
16:28:34 [kirkwood]
+1
16:28:35 [Alex_Li]
0
16:28:42 [Makoto]
+1
16:28:45 [Kathy]
+1
16:29:42 [Detlev]
RESOLUTION: The working group has accepted this SC for inclusion in the Editor's draft
16:29:59 [Detlev]
Jofh: Will put our a CfC to the list
16:30:09 [Mike_Elledge]
bye all!
16:30:16 [AWK_]
s/Jofh/Josh
16:30:21 [Mike_Elledge]
+1
16:30:32 [Detlev]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/30-ag-minutes.html Detlev
16:30:42 [laura]
laura has left #ag
16:31:13 [AWK_]
trackbot, end meeting
16:31:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:31:13 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been AWK, ChrisLoiselle, Joshue108, Kathy, jasonjgw, Detlev, Laura, Wilco, JakeAbma, MelanieP, wayne, Makoto, davidmacdonald, MichaelC, JF,
16:31:16 [Zakim]
... MikeGower, Katie_Haritos-Shea, kirkwood, Elledge, KimDirks, steverep, marcjohlic
16:31:21 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:31:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/30-ag-minutes.html trackbot
16:31:22 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:31:22 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items