13:26:41 RRSAgent has joined #ag 13:26:41 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/30-ag-irc 13:26:43 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:26:46 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 13:26:46 Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 13:26:46 Date: 30 May 2017 13:26:46 ok, trackbot 13:26:51 present: AWK 13:26:57 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:26:57 Present: AWK 13:27:01 Chair: Joshue 13:27:32 agenda+ ACT TF Update 13:27:57 agenda+ Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results 13:28:21 agenda+ orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results 13:29:17 agenda+ change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10 13:29:31 Zakim, agenda? 13:29:31 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 13:29:32 6. Resize Content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/ResizeContent-issue77/ [from interaccess] 13:29:32 7. ACT TF Update [from AWK] 13:29:32 8. Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results [from AWK] 13:29:32 9. orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results [from AWK] 13:29:32 10. change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10 [from AWK] 13:29:42 Zakim, close item 6 13:29:42 agendum 6, Resize Content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/ResizeContent-issue77/, closed 13:29:44 Zakim, agenda? 13:29:44 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 13:29:44 7. ACT TF Update [from AWK] 13:29:44 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 13:29:44 7. ACT TF Update [from AWK] 13:29:44 8. Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results [from AWK] 13:29:44 9. orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results [from AWK] 13:29:45 10. change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10 [from AWK] 13:41:34 jeanne has joined #ag 13:51:07 interaccess has joined #ag 14:32:32 trackbot, start meeting 14:32:35 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:32:38 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 14:32:38 Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 14:32:38 Date: 30 May 2017 14:32:38 ok, trackbot 14:32:49 Chair: Joshue/Andrew 14:32:55 zakim, agenda? 14:32:55 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 14:32:56 7. ACT TF Update [from AWK] 14:32:56 8. Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results [from AWK] 14:32:56 9. orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results [from AWK] 14:32:57 10. change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10 [from AWK] 14:46:16 AWK has joined #ag 14:46:18 Detlev has joined #ag 14:46:29 rrsagent, set logs public 14:46:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:46:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/30-ag-minutes.html AWK 14:46:56 zakim, agenda? 14:46:56 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 14:46:57 7. ACT TF Update [from AWK] 14:46:57 8. Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results [from AWK] 14:46:57 9. orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results [from AWK] 14:46:57 10. change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10 [from AWK] 14:49:45 regrets+ Lauriat, Mike_Pluke, Nurthen, EA_Draffan, bruce_bailey 14:52:13 present+ 14:52:15 laura has joined #ag 14:52:53 Wayne has joined #ag 14:54:53 present+ Joshue108 14:55:20 Kathy has joined #ag 14:55:30 present+ Kathy 14:55:42 MelanieP has joined #ag 14:56:02 present+ jasonjgw 14:56:20 JakeAbma has joined #ag 14:58:29 Wilco has joined #ag 14:58:37 scribe: Detlev 14:59:05 present+ Detlev 14:59:05 davidmacdonald has joined #ag 14:59:24 Present +davidmacdonald 14:59:33 present+ Laura 14:59:36 present+ 14:59:43 I'll do June 27th as fallback scribe if need be too. 14:59:49 present+ JakeAbma 14:59:52 presnet+ JAkeAbma 14:59:53 present+ MelanieP 14:59:54 Makoto has joined #ag 15:00:04 present+ wayne 15:00:08 present+ Makoto 15:01:03 zakim, next item 15:01:03 agendum 7. "ACT TF Update" taken up [from AWK] 15:01:19 Present+ davidmacdonald 15:01:20 present+ 15:01:43 Wilco: ACT TF has published FPWD, not so much feedback so far 15:02:10 JF has joined #ag 15:02:15 https://wilcofiers.github.io/wai-act-quickref/ 15:02:22 Present+ JF 15:02:25 ..couple of requests: TF request advice on rules repository - work on building it has started 15:02:31 trouble joining 15:02:37 gowerm has joined #ag 15:02:44 https://wilcofiers.github.io/act-rules/rules/ACT-R1.html 15:02:44 kirkwood_ has joined #AG 15:02:49 ...trying to figure out how to integrate conformance rules into quickref 15:02:54 q+ 15:02:55 Ryladog has joined #ag 15:03:22 ...link to draft of what a conformance rule should look like, using markdown formatting 15:03:28 present+ MikeGower 15:03:32 agenda? 15:03:37 made it 15:03:40 Present+ Katie_Haritos-Shea 15:03:43 ...second thing is a list of test case repositories 15:03:55 present+ kirkwood 15:04:09 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/conformance-testing/wiki/Testing_Resources 15:04:12 ...TF is collecting published snippeds of HTML code with good/bad a11y examples 15:04:26 KimDirks has joined #ag 15:04:46 ...there is a buch there already like from openAJAX alliance Quail? Google Chrome, Ben2Web 15:05:24 ..tell TF if it is missing anything - wants to build up a big repository so automated test tools can be compared to the repository 15:05:35 ack me 15:05:39 Mike_Elledge has joined #ag 15:05:45 Josh: specificall for automated tools? 15:05:55 Present+ Mike Elledge 15:06:01 Present+ KimDirks 15:06:25 Wilco: not exclusively - includes best practices, also from training libraries, say from Deque Uiversity 15:06:29 Alex_Li has joined #ag 15:06:31 marcjohlic has joined #ag 15:06:40 zakim, next item 15:06:40 agendum 8. "Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results" taken up [from AWK] 15:07:13 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results 15:07:19 Josh: look at feedback to help SC 15:07:42 steverep has joined #ag 15:07:53 present+steverep 15:08:08 Lisa: Was put together with Jeanne and Michael Cooper in relation to the concept of 'pillars' 15:08:25 ...trying to get something in that gives you a feel for the topic 15:08:56 https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/provide-support_ISSUE-32/guidelines/sc/21/provide-support.html 15:08:57 ...synergy would be if there is more details in the supplementary info 15:09:18 ...improvement and improved understanding would come in WCAG 2.1 15:09:22 marcjohlic has joined #ag 15:09:38 ...not much work done so far on the definitions 15:09:50 q? 15:09:54 ...should become more precise and clearer 15:09:56 Q+ to ask where the latest final language is? 15:10:23 ...if you don't have complex content then you don't need to do anything 15:10:40 ...so comprehension support is only meant for complex contetn 15:11:06 ...if you feel there should be a different presentation or note, tell Lisa 15:12:18 ...should cover all sorts of situations related to complex situations - if necessary individual items in the list could be dropped - what is important to know now is if the general direction is OK 15:12:32 ...awar ethat more work is needed 15:13:11 q? 15:13:16 Josh: the main thrust is that support is provided for numerical complex info, long texts etc 15:14:05 Lisa: includes summaries, highlighte dkeywords etc.. is often badly done, but for more specifi advice you will have to go for the supplementary info 15:14:36 maybe michael want to add to hat I said? 15:14:53 ack jf 15:14:53 JF, you wanted to ask where the latest final language is? 15:15:19 current text https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/provide-support_ISSUE-32/guidelines/sc/21/provide-support.html 15:15:31 JF: Has been struggling with this SC - what is the most current text? SC tries to solve a lot of different things in one SC 15:15:57 ...controls is very different from providing summaries 15:16:31 ...complex interactions like custom controls is very different from tackling complex content - should that be split into two SCs? 15:16:34 q 15:16:37 q+ 15:16:44 q? 15:16:53 Lisa: there may be not enough time for that 15:16:54 +1 to JF 15:17:12 JF: Better prodie something solid then rush with this one 15:17:23 q+ 15:17:24 q+ Wayne to say 15:17:35 s/prodie/produce 15:18:05 Lisa: Tackling complex info is probably the most important - providing a list of 'one of the following' was an attempt to tell authors what the ycould do, leaving loopholes 15:18:07 q+ to say that this is useful and may be good split up 15:18:34 Lisa: So it is menat for people who want to do the right thing, accepting the loopholes 15:18:49 Q+ 15:18:50 zakim, ping me in 12 15:18:51 ok, Joshue108 15:19:24 Lisa: If we lose pulling them together it is difficult to address dyscalculia 15:19:56 Josh: Why is it not called out directly (Dyscalculia) or difficult to address? 15:20:03 regrets+ pietro 15:20:46 Lisa: Giving users some way out (alternative words, keywords) can prevent dyscalculia 15:21:17 AndroUser2 has joined #ag 15:21:29 Lisa: It is a burden since it makes you think about new user groups and requirements - if it is dropped it does not surface in WCAG 2.1 15:21:30 ack david 15:21:32 kirkwood has joined #ag 15:22:15 DMD: Maybe one SC with two sections 15:23:13 DMD: Discussion of wording suggestions in Survey 15:23:22 ack wayne 15:23:22 Wayne, you wanted to say 15:23:29 q+ to say: If we want to combine per John’s suggestion…maybe combine the 2 first bullets as the both deal with summary? And then explain in the understanding doc and techniques. 15:23:43 Wayne: Unsure how th ecode level semantics would work (?) 15:24:02 ...how is th eauthor going to include the semantic markup for this 15:24:29 kirkwood has left #ag 15:25:00 Lisa: The semantics that is being made (ARIA for Coga) offers ways of including alternative wordings, alternatvie for directions etc., but that would be at Technique level 15:25:07 Wayne: Where is that? 15:25:15 https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/ 15:25:16 Lisa: (looking) 15:25:28 kirkwood has joined #ag 15:25:38 ack me 15:25:38 Joshue, you wanted to say that this is useful and may be good split up 15:26:35 Josh: Suggestions to break this SC up seem relate dto testability - looks like a triple A thing right now, but a good idea, should be firmed up 15:26:39 ack jf 15:27:13 JF: Concern 1: Building SC with loopholes 15:27:45 q? 15:27:52 Concern 2: ARIA for coga is very much draft proposal currently - authors need something that is fir for use today 15:28:06 Lisa: nothing in the SC relies on ARIA for coga 15:28:24 ack laura 15:28:24 laura, you wanted to say: If we want to combine per John’s suggestion…maybe combine the 2 first bullets as the both deal with summary? And then explain in the understanding doc 15:28:27 ... and techniques. 15:28:56 Laura: If it should be shorter the first two bullets might be lumped together (both concerne dwith summaries) 15:29:39 Lisa: This would make it more confusing - you have a chart for complex numerical info and a summary for long texts so these are different things 15:30:10 q? 15:30:18 Lisa: would make it shorter but less clear 15:30:33 q+ 15:30:49 ack way 15:30:50 Joshue108, you asked to be pinged at this time 15:31:46 q+ 15:31:50 Wayne: Will have to look at it in detail, find it a bit confusing - there is ambiguity in the ways browsers handle (?) 15:32:07 Josh: walk through concerns in survey 15:32:14 ack jas 15:32:56 +1 to AAA for this. 15:33:04 Jason: Details are in written comments - the essence is that while all techniques ar evaluable, they are not broadly applicable to the web as a whole, so they seem to belong to level AAA 15:33:47 ...more work would be needed to make it feasible to be applied to the web in general and then be positioned on level A or AA 15:34:16 There are many ambiguities within W3C standards. How layout is accomplished at the borwser level varies across browsers and there is no contradiction with the HTML or CSS standards. The ambiguity here is that this example is confusing. 15:34:42 ...issues arise when this is applied to web content, would be very different in different contexts and with different types of content - so the applicability would need to be specified a lot more 15:35:23 Lisa: There are clear definitions, like texts above 300 words would be defined as long, needing a summary 15:35:47 ...clear that a better definition for complex numerical info is still needed 15:36:04 I would prefer to see this split up into several distinct SC, and not at Level AAA. I would prefer to see those that can be, placed at Level AA. 15:36:05 ...why would text length definitions not be enough? 15:37:01 Jason: There are internationalization concerns; what is the summary supposed to achieve? 15:38:03 Lisa: There can be bad summaries but that is a separate issue - but summary is widely applicable 15:38:45 zakim, agenda? 15:38:45 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 15:38:46 8. Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results [from AWK] 15:38:46 9. orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results [from AWK] 15:38:46 10. change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10 [from AWK] 15:38:58 Josh: scope needs to be narrowed - lots of useful commehnts to work with 15:39:07 Lisa: please update your comments 15:39:12 zakim, next item 15:39:12 agendum 9. "orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results" taken up [from AWK] 15:39:37 zakim, take up item 10 15:39:37 agendum 10. "change of content: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10" taken up [from AWK] 15:39:55 zakim, close item 8 15:39:55 agendum 8, Help: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/COGA_help/results, closed 15:39:58 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:39:58 9. orientation https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATF_orientation/results [from AWK] 15:40:11 DMD "owns this guy" :) 15:40:40 DMD: Comments were addressed 15:41:06 https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/change-of-content_ISSUE-2/guidelines/sc/21/change-of-content.html 15:41:11 ..editorial comments have been addressed, SC has been updated 15:41:54 q+ 15:41:55 Josh: Look at changes, feel free to get in touch with David 15:42:03 q+ 15:42:20 Michael: comment "screen orientation" instead of just "orientation" 15:42:33 DMD: will change that 15:43:23 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results 15:44:09 ack alex 15:44:17 q- 15:44:21 Alex: Which one are we talking about ? 15:44:25 ack awk 15:44:26 q+ 15:44:29 MichaelC: change of content 15:44:48 AWK: Put in some scenarios to test out the SC 15:45:22 AWK: when submitting a form and you go elsewhere then th eSC would not apply 15:46:05 ...if you put things in the cart you get a live regions update but would you need another update "your cart has been updated" 15:46:44 DMD: if the cart content increases, a notification would be fine (also without live region) 15:46:47 q? 15:47:07 AWK: what is the requirement for "programmatic notification"? 15:47:37 DMD: AT has to be able to determine that things have changed - we might add language to improve understanding 15:48:15 AWK: if you scroll around page and new content is added is this just a live region issue or doe si tnee da separate announcement? 15:48:20 q+ to ask if Prog notif is suitable here - would notification be sufficient as prog deter is in the qualifiying statements 15:48:31 DMD: brief one: like "new content added" 15:48:45 zakim, ping me 12 mins 15:48:45 I don't understand 'ping me 12 mins', Joshue108 15:48:49 zakim, ping me 12 15:48:49 I don't understand 'ping me 12', Joshue108 15:49:00 AWK: if it updates frequently in differnet places how would that be handled? 15:49:20 q+ to say s/programmatically determinable/programmatically determined/ 15:49:21 zakim, ping me 10 15:49:21 I don't understand 'ping me 10', Joshue108 15:49:26 zakim,ping me 10 15:49:26 I don't understand 'ping me 10', Joshue108 15:49:32 DMD: there was an exception "more than 5 times a minute" which was taken out due to sme responses 15:49:38 q+ 15:49:45 zakim, ping me in 10 minutes to tell Joshue108 his time is up 15:49:45 ok, MichaelC 15:49:48 AWK: So then you would not have to do anything? 15:49:51 DMD: No 15:50:26 DMD: other people will ask the same question, maybe it needs exceptions, or narrowing the SC to user-activated things 15:50:44 ...but that would nit serve the community as well as covering any changes 15:50:47 can you define what is an action taken? 15:51:03 ...the alternative would be to reintroduce frequent update sexception 15:51:35 DMD: would a big clock not fail 2.2.2? Probably not? 15:51:56 Josh: How would cange of content relate to client-side error validation? 15:51:57 AWK; also the clock is essential for a greenwich mean time page 15:51:58 q+ 15:52:14 ack ryla 15:52:19 DMD: Yes, would produce message "errors on page, please review" or similar 15:52:31 s/sexception/exception 15:52:38 regrets+ Alastair 15:52:51 q+ 15:52:57 Katie: We have been looking for that - the exception for frequent changes seems useful 15:53:06 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results 15:53:06 DMD: Is in the survey 15:54:02 DMD: reading Detlev's concern in survey 15:54:19 DMD: reading MichaelCs concern in survey 15:54:45 Katie: Can we come up with a number, like 10 per minute? 15:55:08 ack josh 15:55:08 Joshue, you wanted to ask if Prog notif is suitable here - would notification be sufficient as prog deter is in the qualifiying statements 15:55:43 Josh: wondered if 'programmatic' should be dropped from notification 15:56:01 DMD: is needed 15:56:26 aria-live roles: timer https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/roles#timer 15:56:33 DMD: Cna be widened, better explained, but generally looks good 15:56:40 q+ 15:56:41 Josh: things it is good to go 15:56:42 ack mich 15:56:42 MichaelC, you wanted to say s/programmatically determinable/programmatically determined/ 15:56:49 marquee https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/roles#marquee 15:57:10 MichaelC: "programmatically determinable" should be "programmatically determined" 15:57:55 ack gower 15:58:12 gowerm: Pasted things that can be applied to live region 15:58:30 q+ to suggest change from "The user has been advised of the behavior before using the control" to "The user has been advised of the behavior before or as a result of using the control" 15:58:31 ...marquee - migh tbe useful 15:59:05 gowerm: time addresses AWK's page scenario 15:59:15 timer not time 15:59:46 MichaelC, you asked to be pinged at this time to tell Joshue108 his time is up 16:00:04 Alex: There is already a realtime exception in 2.2.2 - why not copy that? 16:00:16 zakim, close queue 16:00:16 ok, Joshue108, the speaker queue is closed 16:00:31 DMD (weighing relevance of exception) 16:00:45 q+ 16:01:22 gowerm: caution: in situation where info is added as in this IRC the exception should apply 16:01:39 DMD (editing) 16:02:50 q? 16:02:51 Josh: goes in the right direction, issue scan be ironed out 16:03:12 ack jaso 16:04:13 Jason: Will look at revised versions, not clear what is required when DOM is changed - should require to distinguish between significant and insignificant changes, 16:04:33 David, I think you can have a technique that flags with role="timer" 16:04:36 q+ 16:05:25 ...if there are several updates occuring (atomic) only one update might be needed, needs to be clarified what needs to be done on top of updating the DOM in the browser, that the changes are important enough for the user to know about 16:05:46 ...some update might be part of the same change so that needs to be taken into account 16:06:14 DMD: distinction between essential (prinary purpose of the page) and inessential is already there 16:07:12 atomic vs. non-atomic: if true, it presents the whole changed region to the user ("you have 15 sec left" instead of just "15" 16:07:47 ...we can include something "where the change has been sufficiently descriptive" (?) 16:08:01 ..weary to put atomic / non-atomic in it 16:08:13 Josh: should go into techniques 16:08:52 Jason: When authors provide notification od each change they might thing they have satisfied that - that's a danger 16:09:21 ack wayne 16:09:21 ...programmatic notification that changes are significant 16:09:23 Does notification cause visual loss of place in the document? Can you turn notification off? 16:10:30 DMD: no requirement for a visual notification, where it exists it has to be programmatic also 16:11:13 There is a link to the coga SC Feedback 16:11:53 present+ marcjohlic 16:12:02 Josh: Good issue that notifications may not be visible / noticeable when magnification is used 16:12:15 DMD: focus in this here is programmatic notification 16:12:59 DMD: notifications (noted by Wayne) may also be obstructive visually 16:13:22 David, possible exception "The change of content results from auto-updating content that is an essential part of an activity" 16:13:29 DMD: no requirement here to move the focus to th enew information 16:13:30 ack alex 16:13:42 q+ 16:14:17 Alex: (reads SC text - confirmed): what means "action taken"? 16:14:26 DMD: a user action 16:14:48 Alex: any action of the end user? 16:15:14 DMD: If the content changes - that would not happen as a result of scrolling or moving the cursor 16:15:48 +1 to adding "user" in front of action 16:15:55 Alex: at least chang eto "user action" - also be cleare about defining what constitutes an action 16:16:31 DMD: "user action that changes the content" - so the notification confirms that 16:16:50 Josh: what about changes of content without user action? 16:17:28 https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/change-of-content_ISSUE-2/guidelines/sc/21/change-of-content.html 16:17:51 DMD: ..OR "that conveys information" - so it is not only user-initiated 16:18:05 8discussion of details of wording of the SC 16:18:34 ack AWK 16:18:34 AWK, you wanted to suggest change from "The user has been advised of the behavior before using the control" to "The user has been advised of the behavior before or as a result of 16:18:35 "The change of content results from auto-updating content that is an essential part of an activity" 16:18:35 DMD: updated SC text 16:18:38 ... using the control" 16:18:50 +1 to include now, leave editorial changes to David's discression. 16:19:08 gowerm: pasted in wording suggrstion above 16:19:35 https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/change-of-content_ISSUE-2/guidelines/sc/21/change-of-content.html 16:19:48 Good luck, Wayne! 16:21:27 "The user has been advised of the change of content before or as a result of using a control" 16:21:30 AWK: goal is to infom the user about important changes - worried about second bullet 16:22:19 AWK: would allow a web page that pops up a dialogue annoncng the change rather then using aria-live on a car, or similar 16:22:36 q+ 16:22:48 ..."advised of the behaviour" seems strange 16:23:16 DM (editing, committing changes) 16:23:31 AWK_ has joined #ag 16:24:54 Steve: excited and scared by this SC as SR user (because there is a lot of misuse of ARIA) - the SC does not delineate how polite that notification needs to be - is there any way to deal with that? 16:25:23 DMD: the spec says 'use polite unless the house burns' - so the spec is pretty clear 16:25:44 Josh: a matter of Techniques 16:26:05 Steve: fears it is buried in Techniques, would like to see it up front in the SC 16:26:33 "programmatic notification is provided for each ESSENTIAL change of content.."? 16:26:41 DMD: you can turn off live-regions 16:27:28 or adding "essential" inside of "conveys information"? 16:27:35 Katie: if we include an exception, include times / frequency 16:27:58 Add to exception that "or it can be turned off" 16:28:14 goverm: some techniques refer to leve regions; would like to get it out and get public comments 16:28:15 +1 16:28:24 +1 16:28:24 +1 16:28:24 +1 16:28:26 +1 16:28:28 +1 16:28:28 +1 16:28:31 Add to exception that "or notification can be turned off" 16:28:31 +1 16:28:32 +1 16:28:33 +1 16:28:33 +1 16:28:34 +1 16:28:34 +1 16:28:35 0 16:28:42 +1 16:28:45