IRC log of auto on 2017-05-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:57:30 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
07:57:32 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:57:32 [Zakim]
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07:57:34 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
07:57:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
07:57:35 [trackbot]
Meeting: Automotive Working Group Teleconference
07:57:35 [trackbot]
Date: 10 May 2017
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08:46:21 [ted__]
Agenda bashed, going to be hectic with various conflicts. speakerphone
08:46:33 [ted__]
Topic: RSI
08:46:49 [ted__]
[recap, dev progress, temperature of others]
08:48:19 [ted__]
Ted gives recap on state wrt VISS staying on track, focus on other "domains" and a public proof of concept
08:50:34 [ted__]
[ted has his phone connected to webex in case people join before speakerphone arrives]
08:52:44 [ted__]
scribenick: ted__
08:54:02 [ted__]
Present+ Hira
09:00:06 [ted__]
Present+ Peter, PatrickL, PatrickB, Wonsuk, Adam, Kevin, Lovene, Urata, Bernard, Ted
09:00:32 [ted__]
RSI demo being setup
09:01:56 [ted__]
Present+ Paul
09:03:54 [ted__]
PatrickB starts intro presentation
09:05:03 [ted__]
[repeat of Burlingame, @@@minutes with link to slides]
09:07:42 [ted__]
09:07:56 [ted__]
[another copy of slides sent to]
09:08:36 [ted__]
09:09:27 [ted__]
PatrickB: decision to focus on HTTP so as to be able to allow phones to connect via BT
09:10:00 [ted__]
Wonsuk: based on BT standard?
09:10:14 [hira]
Got it, TKS
09:10:20 [ted__]
PatrickL: BT + serial port profile since it is the most stable
09:11:02 [ted__]
Wonsuk: usual pairing and a follow up step?
09:11:30 [ted__]
PatrickB: install app on phone, pair with BT as usual, then second permission for the phone
09:11:55 [ted__]
PatrickL: yes you then allow the device to access the apis from the head unit
09:12:09 [ted__]
PatrickB: after that reconnects are automatic
09:12:20 [ted__]
PatrickL: preshared key
09:12:55 [ted__]
... that installation of that application on that phone is paired with that car
09:13:04 [ted__]
Ted: you can pair with more than one car?
09:13:09 [ted__]
PatrickL: yes
09:13:39 [ted__]
... TLS protecting the device / car interactions
09:14:40 [ted__]
PatrickL: I would like to discuss standardization of the tokens and pairing
09:15:01 [ted__]
Ted: I should ask colleagues, Dom in particular
09:15:13 [junichi-hashimoto]
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09:16:28 [ted__]
PatrickB: we presented this to the group in October, joined W3C and made a Member Submission
09:16:40 [ted__]
... other domains pending
09:16:53 [PatrickLue]
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09:16:53 [ted__]
... we are working on demo server for media at present
09:17:03 [PatrickLue]
Java RSI Client Implementation:
09:17:03 [ted__]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:17:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ted__
09:17:16 [ted__]
PatrickB: we have 5-6 contributorrs already on github
09:17:21 [PatrickLue]
+ Media Client
09:18:13 [ted__]
PatrickB: VW has this in production vehicles, initially a modest number of cars with intent of widening it to other models in the coming year
09:21:17 [ted__]
09:21:40 [ted__]
protocol, cdn, media (services), media library, mixer
09:22:00 [ted__]
additional pending: notifications (likely), navigation (more difficult)
09:23:52 [ted__]
[additional history summary for Lovene's benefit]
09:24:14 [ted__]
Paul: Philippe Colliot (PSA) hopefully can join us today or tomorrow
09:24:53 [ted__]
Ted: we also have work from Qing An Alibaba around LBS plus Genivi hopefully can fill in on nav
09:25:04 [ted__]
PatrickL: navigation is also incredibly complicated
09:25:12 [ted__]
(order of statements out of sync)
09:26:52 [ted__]
PatrickB: talking to eg Spotify they do not want to write something for a measely 10M cars when they are focused on billions of other devices
09:27:06 [ted__]
... they would be willing to write the bridge
09:27:32 [ted__]
(earlier Ted noted iHeart said they find ViWi/RSI media workable for them)
09:28:19 [ted__]
Ted: it is just a thin wrapper around their proprietary API
09:28:30 [ted__]
PatrickB: if they are not willing to write that wrapper we can
09:29:07 [ted__]
... auto industry is very fragmented. some of these content providers have done one off solutions and have found it painful including the long term contracted maintenance commitment
09:29:38 [ted__]
Peter: Spotify did it once for WindowsCE and understand that was painful as well
09:29:47 [ted__]
... I agree with the statement of the problem
09:33:25 [ted__]
PatrickL: we want to have something easily usable by content providers to be in another ecosystem similar to Apple carplay and Android auto
09:35:23 [ted__]
[pending additional domain explained off the record]
09:36:39 [ted__]
Wonsuk mentions a similar effort at W3C for this other domain
09:37:17 [ted__]
PatrickL contrasts, mostly on user interaction
09:37:57 [ted__]
VW's additional submission is based on existing convention (quasi-standard)
09:41:22 [ted__]
[ted prepares to depart for Genivi panel, group will continue on RSI or possibly VIAS]
09:42:45 [paul]
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09:46:01 [peterw]
== peterw taking notes on irc
09:51:19 [peterw2]
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09:51:55 [peterw2]
== Patrick the RESTFULness very important for the RSI approach
09:52:00 [paul]
RSI has graph interface
09:52:07 [paul]
like FB
09:53:23 [peterw2]
Restfulness supports microservices architecture
09:54:55 [peterw2]
patrick guidelines to obtain tokens needed
09:58:56 [paul]
09:59:52 [paul]
10:01:06 [Junichi]
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10:04:58 [peterw3]
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10:06:03 [peterw3]
paul DLNA for media
10:06:30 [peterw3]
== RSI approach high level business drivn
10:11:14 [paul]
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10:25:35 [paul]
IoT architectures are somewhat similar
10:52:07 [junichi-hashimoto]
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11:00:54 [junichi-hashimoto]
coffee break?
11:03:21 [ted__]
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11:03:31 [ted__]
rrsagent, draft minutes
11:03:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ted__
11:12:16 [ted__]
PatrickL: what does the group think should be the next step towards standardizing the protocol
11:12:48 [ted__]
... we are trying to bring use cases into our regular calls, show it works, make it open source so people can try it out
11:19:50 [ted__]
Ted explains BG process and reports, suggests next step
11:20:47 [hira]
Please reconnect WebEX
11:22:57 [ted__]
Paul: it is difficult to get participation, people are too busy with their day jobs
11:23:13 [ted__]
... I also want to avoid fracturing such a small group
11:24:05 [ted__]
... people can start playing with the mock server and creating their own. we should do some outreaach, involve people like Roger
11:26:02 [hira]
Please turn off mute in your phone.
11:26:56 [ted__]
Ted: another advantage to getting this going in the BG is lower barrier of entry, legally and financially
11:27:24 [ted__]
Bernard: you guys need to be better about messaging, updating the BG page where people land and want to learn what is going on
11:28:04 [ted__]
Ted: I am guilty of not being able to put in enough time in that due to my other day job at W3C (Head of Systems) and also not the best at messaging
11:28:52 [ted__]
... people from this group (or their organizations) are more than welcome to contribute to blog articles, news feeds etc. I will try to be better
11:29:06 [ted__]
Paul: we are revitalizing what is taking place in the BG
11:29:21 [ted__]
Paul: let's agree on a name and get going
11:29:47 [ted__]
PatrickL: define the name, put on github, encourage people to join
11:29:56 [ted__]
Paul: using repec
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11:30:57 [ted__]
Paul: I would like to see what JLR's interest is here. You have been heavily involved in W3C VISS and VSS
11:31:10 [ted__]
Kevin: generally supportive
11:31:19 [ted__]
Adam: similar model to web sockets
11:32:15 [ted__]
Kevin: nothing has changed in our commitment to the group
11:33:04 [ted__]
Paul: one problem has been the time of the meeting
11:36:47 [ted__]
PatrickB: we should try to have more public discussions
11:41:43 [ted__]
... benefit is more promotion, suggest #w3cauto
11:42:53 [auto]
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11:43:35 [auto]
Schedule meeting to work for all
11:43:45 [auto]
Move specs to respec
11:43:58 [auto]
put more info on website
11:45:54 [auto]
make effort to publicize
11:47:35 [ted__]
[discussion on specific organizations we would like to engage, history of pass participants]
11:58:52 [junichi-hashimoto]
Thank you for setting up webex environment. let us reconnect again after lunch :)
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12:51:00 [ted__]
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13:02:29 [ted__]
Topic: VISS
13:02:59 [ted__]
PatrickL: I want to understand the issues you are facing
13:03:33 [ted__]
Adam: if for example you don't include the path in getVSS method you get the entire tree
13:03:59 [ted__]
... what we wanted to do is perhaps emit path but what to do if you're given null
13:04:23 [ted__]
... do we feel having WebIDL and JSON schema in the same spec is a good idea?
13:06:15 [ted__]
Wonsuk: if there is no path property that could mean the client wants the whole vss tree
13:06:27 [ted__]
... in webidl there is no null option
13:07:21 [ted__]
Adam: saying filters=null is the issue
13:07:28 [ted__]
Ted: isn't filterrs optional?
13:08:35 [ted__]
Adam: yes but either we stick with webidl or do not. webidl is for interacting with an api within the browser, whereas here we're talking to a service
13:10:05 [ted__]
Peter: i don't want to check json objects for path sometimes but not others
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13:13:08 [ted__]
13:14:57 [ted__]
Ted: problem arises since we're trying to use WebIDL for a service
13:15:12 [ted__]
Paul: reason is for easier binding to VIAS
13:16:05 [ted__]
s/reason is for easier binding to VIAS/what are the reasons for sticking with it?/
13:16:20 [ted__]
Ted: perhaps for easier binding to VIAS
13:16:28 [ted__]
Adam: I don't think that is relevant
13:16:52 [ted__]
Ted: then it is simply influenced by tooling (respec) and consistency with other w3c spec patterns
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13:23:32 [ted__]
[discussion of dropping webidl since we are not doing an ecmascript api]
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13:34:36 [ted__]
Ted consults Philippe Le Hegaret via irc
13:36:11 [ted__]
13:36:24 [ted__]
ok to drop webidl, will confer also with Mike Smith
13:37:19 [ted__]
plh suggests, correctly, we are perhaps misusing webidl and can cause ourselves problem in the future
13:37:48 [ted__]
tentative resolution: ditch webidl and see if Ted can get suggestions from Mike or others
13:38:02 [ted__]
web driver was given as a possibly pertinent examplep
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13:42:09 [ted__]
[back to filters]
13:42:26 [ted__]
PatrickL: I would be inclned to have two interfaces insteaad of this compound one
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13:44:35 [ted__]
...separating getVSS and filter
13:44:56 [ted__]
Adam: interesting, thanks that might solve some other issues
13:47:56 [ted__]
PatrickL: document for the data structure again?
13:48:04 [ted__]
Adam broadcasts VSS spec
13:48:47 [ted__]
PatrickL: any experience generating C++ object model from YAML?
13:49:39 [ted__]
Paul: the fidl view might be helpful, Urata might have done something too
13:49:44 [ted__]
Urata: to csv
13:50:18 [ted__]
Paul: Franca people would be familiar, try Gunnar since you don't know Klaus
13:50:44 [ted__]
PatrickL: I like the documentation in YAML
13:52:57 [ted__]
Wonsuk points out VSS parser which is extensible
13:55:51 [ted__]
PatrickL: that is pretty powerful and documentation in the core truth (YAML). I could see taking JSON or another form to build out a mock server automatically
13:56:11 [ted__]
Lovene: would you be able to open your tooling as well?
13:56:33 [ted__]
PatrickL: possibly including adding to the VSS parser
13:57:35 [ted__]
... I need JSON for some of my purposes
13:57:49 [ted__]
Paul: reason for YAML was to go lower in stack to C++ and Franca
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14:09:31 [ted__]
14:09:58 [ted__]
ttl in ms in our spec, usually in seconds
14:13:13 [ted__]
agree for ttl in seconds
14:15:41 [ted__]
14:16:17 [ted__]
Adam: we should be able to set lock for everything within door via wildcard, no concern of number of doors nor look at vss beforehand
14:20:26 [ted__]
Ted: 409 Conflict could work fine here especially to be consistent with rest of spec. alternates for door not being closed example 412 Precondition Failed 416 Requested Range Not Satisfiable or 417 Expectation Failed
14:21:18 [ted__]
Urata: in the explicit example, iterating through doors, the server has to try each interaction separately
14:22:14 [ted__]
... you can have separate response codes and consider the overall failed if any fails
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14:22:36 [ted__]
PatrickB: yes but perhaps rollback state for the others
14:23:41 [ted__]
Kevin: you might want to leave the lockable doors locked
14:24:05 [ted__]
PatrickB: 202 accepted could signify partial success instead of 200 OK for all
14:24:19 [ted__]
... or other in 2NN range
14:24:49 [ted__]
Adam: we don't give 200s since we're not REST at present
14:25:12 [ted__]
Kevin: success is JSON fragment or failure response
14:26:36 [ted__]
Ted: ideal would be to know which failed but that would complicate the failed response
14:27:41 [ted__]
PatrickB: we tend to send back a 200 for ok, 400 for client side and 500 if issue is with ECU
14:28:23 [junichi-hashimoto]
how about simply to prohibit "wildcard set"?
14:30:21 [ted__]
Kevin: on failure, partial or full, you would need to iterate to find state of each
14:35:22 [ted__]
Junichi: you can end up in a deadlock state especially if multiple clients are interacting. I would prefer to keep it simple
14:36:44 [ted__]
PatrickB: you have to queue requests to be able to process them separately
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14:37:12 [ted__]
... last wins
14:38:26 [ted__]
Kevin: that is problematic when it isn't a binary true/false but incremental change
14:48:04 [junichi-hashimoto]
fyi, once we investigated 'set' method. there may be more complicated race conditions
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