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15:46:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/09-pbg-irc
15:46:47 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:46:58 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
15:47:27 <ivan> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/356774EA-905E-4161-9B52-4B5A40A035BF@ingramcontent.com
15:47:34 <ivan> Chair: Rick
15:47:59 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:47:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/09-pbg-minutes.html ivan
15:49:06 <ivan> Regrets: Nick_Ruffilo, Cristina
15:51:18 <Julian_Calderazi> Julian_Calderazi has joined #pbg
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15:54:40 <ivan> Present+ ivan
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15:54:54 <ivan> present+ dauwhe
15:55:02 <ivan> print + karen
15:55:04 <laudrain> present+ Luc
15:55:07 <ivan> present+ karen
15:55:29 <ivan> present+ wolfgang_schindler
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15:56:36 <ivan> present+ julian_Calderazi
15:57:00 <pbelfanti> present+ paul_belfanti
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15:57:10 <Julian_Calderazi> Julian Calderazi - Team Leader @ DigitalBe
15:57:29 <RickJ> RickJ has joined #pbg
15:57:37 <Schindler> present+ Wolfgang Schindler
15:58:32 <RickJ> present+ RickJ
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15:59:25 <George> present+ George
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16:00:52 <ivan> present+ Ric
16:00:53 <Brian> also present
16:01:03 <ivan> present+ brian
16:01:12 <ivan> present+ makoto
16:01:25 <ivan> present+ Bill_Kasdorff
16:01:29 <Karen> Scribenick: Karen
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16:01:32 <Avneesh> present+ Avneesh
16:01:37 <Karen> Rick: Let's get started
16:01:47 <Karen> …Welcome everyone
16:01:48 <RickJ> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-pbg-minutes.html
16:01:55 <ivan> present+ berhard_heinser
16:02:02 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbg
16:02:12 <laudrain> Me too
16:02:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
16:02:14 <ivan> present+ junko_kamata
16:02:18 <rpug> rpug has joined #pbg
16:02:22 <garth> garth has joined #pbg
16:02:36 <ivan> present+ jens_klingelhöfer
16:02:41 <Karen> Rick: minutes from last meeting are in irc
16:02:46 <ivan> present+ laurent
16:02:51 <Karen> …any comments or changes; if not, assume they are approved
16:02:54 <tzviya> present+
16:02:56 <Karen> …second point on agenda
16:02:57 <garth> present+ Garth
16:02:58 <ivan> present+ mateus
16:02:58 <mattg> mattg has joined #pbg
16:03:04 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #pbg
16:03:10 <Karen> …Per our previous discussions, to take advantage of W3C focus and the honeymoon period
16:03:16 <mattg> present+
16:03:18 <ivan> present+ Ryan_Pugatch
16:03:18 <rpug> present+
16:03:27 <Karen> …and the work we are doing to elevate to a higher level, I have submitted my name to the AB [Advisory Board] election
16:03:33 <ivan> rick++
16:03:37 <George> Go Rick Go
16:03:40 <Karen> …encourage you to have your AC Rep vote for me, to encourage everyone that this is happening
16:03:45 <laudrain> +1
16:03:47 <mteixeira> present+ mateus-teixeira
16:03:49 <Karen> …Charter update; Ivan, where do we stand?
16:04:03 <Karen> Ivan: We have 43 or 45 votes in in favor of the charter
16:04:06 <Karen> …it's a great number
16:04:17 <Karen> …We have the necessary numbers; the more the merrier but it's really good
16:04:19 <Karen> …Out of those
16:04:24 <Karen> …Nine TPI members
16:04:45 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbg
16:04:45 <Karen> …Something I reported on two weeks ago, there were two comments with objections on the charter
16:04:53 <Karen> …One of two we discussed and we have an alternative proposal that works
16:05:03 <Karen> …We have another one [objection] that we are working on
16:05:12 <Karen> …Looking to find a consensus; if not, W3M will have to decide on that one
16:05:18 <Karen> …We also have some comments in favor of the charter
16:05:32 <Karen> …but asking us to look at text and improve the English and stylistic changes
16:05:44 <Karen> …Something that Tzviya, who is back by the way, has taken up to do
16:05:46 <Karen> …So this week
16:05:54 <Karen> …The voting period ends on 14 May, end of this week
16:05:56 <MURATA> MURATA has joined #pbg
16:06:02 <pbelfanti> Welcome back, Tzviya!
16:06:05 <Karen> …from that point on, we will have our discussions with W3M [W3C Management Team]
16:06:17 <Karen> …At this moment I am cautiously optimistic it will happen without problems
16:06:19 <RickJ> q?
16:06:28 <Karen> …So plan to have group start end of June is probably happening
16:06:35 <gregdavis> present+ gregdavis
16:06:42 <Karen> Rick: For those of us who have not been involved, is 45 a high or low number for these types of votes?
16:06:55 <Karen> Ivan: It's a high number; requirement is to have 5% of membership to vote
16:07:02 <Karen> …so that's around 22-23 votes without TPI members
16:07:06 <Karen> …with TPI it's a bit higher
16:07:15 <Karen> …so it's 47 taking into account the objections
16:07:24 <Karen> …It's a nice number; we may reach the 50 number this week
16:07:34 <tzviya> q+
16:07:35 <Karen> …Comparatively to other proposals for other charters it's a high number
16:07:41 <jkamata> jkamata has joined #pbg
16:07:50 <Karen> Rick: We are getting background noises from some people; please mute unless you are speaking
16:08:03 <Karen> …Any questions on the charter
16:08:10 <pbelfanti> I voted just before this meeting, so it may not have registered yet
16:08:25 <Karen> Tzvivya: Better?
16:08:37 <Karen> s/Tzviya
16:08:49 <Karen> [I will type it in]
16:09:02 <Karen> Tzviya:  I will call in
16:09:13 <Karen> Ivan: Garth and Bill were also part of the discussion; is Bill on the call?
16:09:18 <Karen> …Maybe they have something to add?
16:09:28 <Karen> Bill: I am on call but nothing to add
16:09:31 <Karen> Garth: you did fine
16:09:34 <ivan> present+ BillMcCoy
16:09:36 <Karen> …I can touch on the next agenda item
16:09:45 <Karen> …the Interest Group, which is largely a repeat
16:09:52 <jensklingelhoefer> jensklingelhoefer has joined #pbg
16:10:00 <Karen> …We are doing updates to charter, every other week meetings as we await kick-off of the Publishing Working Group
16:10:07 <Karen> …Now working on the agenda for that meeting
16:10:12 <Karen> …here is the link
16:10:17 <garth> PUB WG Agenda & RSVP: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J0VlZbMFj-33tfhZe0EK543NWFlx6dyDHauqkPwMeEI/edit#
16:10:30 <Karen> Garth: Feel free to contribute or comment on that
16:10:37 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:10:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/09-pbg-minutes.html ivan
16:10:38 <Karen> …advance planning for the Working Group kick-off meeting
16:10:49 <Karen> …Very likely to be a Working Group meeting in New York a month from now
16:10:54 <Karen> Rick: I have a question for you, Garth
16:11:02 <Karen> …There were a number of open items to sum up
16:11:07 <Karen> …having a place for comments to land
16:11:12 <Karen> …any concerns or open items?
16:11:21 <Karen> Garth: we did discuss and either resolved, or did not think of all of them
16:11:27 <Karen> …CSS Accessibility being top of mind
16:11:35 <Karen> …we either reflected in charter where they woudl land
16:11:40 <Karen> …we published the two documents as Notes
16:11:44 <Karen> …Ivan did it
16:11:54 <ivan> q+
16:12:00 <Karen> …Either we are in very good shape, or there are items the Pub IG is handling and has not yet found homes for
16:12:03 <Karen> Rick: No red flags
16:12:04 <garth> q?
16:12:06 <Karen> Garth: right
16:12:09 <Karen> ack Tzviya
16:12:33 <Karen> Tzviya: I was going to say about the number of comments
16:12:39 <Karen> …if I took advice
16:12:46 <Karen> …am I correct in assuming @@
16:12:55 <garth> Tzviya we really can’t hear you… please type.
16:12:56 <MURATA> I cannot hear her.
16:13:49 <Karen> Tzviya: Better?
16:13:51 <Karen> YEAH!
16:13:53 <Julian_Calderazi> clap clap!
16:13:54 <MURATA> Great!
16:13:54 <garth> Woohoo!
16:14:10 <Karen> Tzviya:  The comments we received from many people, not just the formal objections
16:14:23 <Karen> …a lot of comments on the charter were you have a lot of words; keep it brief and too the point
16:14:41 <Karen> …I could probably boil this down to a few bullets; but if I do that, then we have to send it back to members to vote again, is that correct?
16:14:46 <Karen> Ivan: that is correct
16:14:54 <Karen> Tzviya: that makes my editing job easier then
16:15:00 <garth> q?
16:15:00 <Karen> Ivan: The comments are under the heading in the review
16:15:06 <BillMcCoy> q+
16:15:19 <Karen> …we are ok with the charter and the WG; we are in favor of WG even if you do not take the comments into account
16:15:37 <Karen> …If we do things which are clearly wrong, mistakes, that is fine, but radically re-writing the charter would be too much
16:15:47 <Karen> Garth: If we were to do that, we may risk losing the 45 positive votes
16:15:58 <Karen> …let's do the word smithing to make things work
16:16:02 <Karen> …but not go back for a vote
16:16:05 <RickJ> q?
16:16:06 <garth> q?
16:16:07 <Karen> Rick: Ivan, you are in the queue
16:16:10 <garth> ack ivan
16:16:19 <Karen> ack BillMcCoy
16:16:40 <Karen> BillMcCoy: as person who will be defending the charter in the W3M senior management meeting
16:16:48 <Karen> …I think we should err on the side of minimal edits
16:16:57 <Karen> …so that Tim or others do not suggest we go back for another pass
16:17:06 <Karen> …Jeff indicated as much to me and Ralph last week
16:17:20 <Karen> …Bending over backwards to address a few number of objections could boomerang
16:17:31 <Karen> …If we can make a few edits and make everyone happy, that's fantastic
16:17:43 <Karen> …But even if charter is not perfect, we really don't want to go back to another voting cycle
16:17:47 <Karen> …So that's my two cents
16:17:56 <Karen> Garth: Be nice for Ivan for to answer Dave's question
16:18:10 <Karen> …My response is if it's non-substantive, W3M stays cool
16:18:20 <Karen> …but look to Ivan's response
16:18:24 <Karen> Ivan: that's true
16:18:29 <Karen> …you can believe Garth
16:18:37 <Karen> …Two more comments
16:18:39 <garth> q?
16:18:48 <Karen> …One is not minor thing I forgot to say for the vote
16:19:11 <Karen> …Among the 45 we have 33 commenters who have said that they intend to participate in the Working Group; that's good. We need that.
16:19:19 <RickJ> q+
16:19:23 <Karen> …One of them is Apple. That is good; they were not active in the IG
16:19:33 <Karen> …The other thing back to Garth's report on the Interest Group
16:19:43 <Karen> …there is one area where there has been no action in the past period
16:19:59 <Karen> …Not sure if it's something the BG should look at…it's MathML
16:20:05 <Karen> …anything with mathematics
16:20:09 <Karen> …still an open issue
16:20:17 <George> q+
16:20:20 <Karen> …that has not fundamentally improved in the past year; that is still a problem
16:20:26 <Karen> Rick: Are you suggesting this is a topic to handle?
16:20:32 <Karen> Ivan: Not sure what I'm suggesting
16:20:38 <dauwhe> Note that the Math CG is active
16:20:40 <Karen> …where we want to go with it at some point in time
16:20:48 <Karen> …Discuss at some point and what are the possible avenues
16:20:58 <Karen> Rick: I put myself in the queue about the 33 people who want to participate
16:21:15 <Karen> …Garth, do we know that these 33 people have the information about the Working Group meeting in June?
16:21:24 <Karen> Ivan: Charter references the F2F in June, but not the logistics
16:21:27 <Karen> …that's a good point
16:21:50 <Karen> …Once the group is finalized then Garth, Tzviya and I will need to contact the AC Reps of those companies in case they are not yet in the Interest Group
16:22:06 <Karen> Rick: Would it behoove us to start that outreach earlier, given flight expenses; make sure they want to come
16:22:11 <Karen> Ivan: Formally it's a bit awkward
16:22:16 <Karen> …makes me a bit uneasy
16:22:26 <Karen> …Let's not open up the can of worms; let's wait a week
16:22:45 <Karen> Garth: Ivan, one idea is because we have many member of the CG, we could send something to them
16:22:51 <Karen> …or is that a bad idea?
16:22:58 <Karen> Ivan: No, we can send out what we are planning
16:23:02 <dauwhe> q+
16:23:03 <Karen> …the information about the place and the dates
16:23:05 <BillMcCoy> q+
16:23:15 <RickJ> ack rickj
16:23:16 <Karen> BillK: Don't you have to be a member to be part of the WG?
16:23:18 <Karen> Ivan: Yes
16:23:29 <Karen> …people must be in the WG for the F2F historically
16:23:41 <Karen> Garth: we do have to enforce that piece, but hope to have more members
16:23:53 <dauwhe> q-
16:23:54 <Karen> Rick: Come Monday, let's copy email addresses and send them the logistics
16:23:59 <Karen> Garth: I think that's a good idea
16:24:02 <Karen> ack George
16:24:10 <Karen> George: On the Math side of things
16:24:28 <Karen> …with the Accessibility folks, we are working on a way to include math in that
16:24:39 <Karen> …it involves an SVG image for math and a mechanism to have the math in there as well
16:24:43 <Karen> …kind of off screen
16:24:47 <Karen> …so that AT could get at it
16:24:58 <Karen> …We are a couple weeks away from having a technique to recommend
16:25:20 <Karen> …Not sure if we have a long-term solution, but expect to send the solution to our publisher friends for feedback about whether they can do this in their production processes
16:25:23 <RickJ> ack billm
16:25:26 <Karen> ack BillMcCoy
16:25:40 <Karen> BillMcCoy: About half of TPI members have not done their paperwork yet
16:25:49 <Karen> …I think we should reach out to the EPUB 3 CG
16:25:54 <Karen> …and the TPI eligible
16:26:00 <Karen> …because they may not have seen information
16:26:06 <gregdavis> @george - Pearson does a lot of MathML, we’d be glad to look at the SVG workflow
16:26:13 <Karen> …some people who did the TPI did not realize they also have to press the button to join
16:26:19 <Karen> …Whoever reaches out once vote is completed
16:26:30 <Karen> …If you are TPI eligible, please complete the paperwork and point them to me
16:26:37 <Karen> …Veronica is person for the agreement and payment
16:26:47 <Karen> …We really want to get TPI eligible people into the fold
16:26:50 <Karen> …It's a good incentive
16:27:05 <Karen> …People in CG who want to join the WG, welcome for them to join as members
16:27:16 <Karen> …Anyone not a member or TPI member, I'm happy to discuss with them
16:27:24 <Karen> Rick: A perfect transition for the EPUB 3 CG update
16:27:35 <Karen> …Lisa, Dave or Rachel, do you want to give an update?
16:27:45 <Karen> Dave: We have our first conference call with 25 attendees which was great
16:27:50 <Karen> …set up infrastructure on GitHub
16:28:02 <Karen> …set up task forces to address issues we need to delve into
16:28:11 <Karen> …we already have 12 issues in the GitHub repo
16:28:16 <Karen> …strong interest in Accessibility
16:28:26 <Karen> …Lots of people interested in working on education
16:28:35 <Karen> …and discussions on what to do about EDUPUB on lists
16:28:46 <Karen> …Ivan and Matt have managed to transfer EPUB 3 spec docs to a W3C repo
16:28:51 <Karen> …It feels like progress to me
16:28:56 <Karen> Rick: Is it a valid assumption
16:29:07 <Karen> …that you'll take on the contact that Bill McCoy just mentioned?
16:29:23 <Karen> Dave: yes, we can say that if you have the resources to become a W3C member, we would love to have you at the W3C F2F
16:29:30 <Karen> BillMcCoy: one more part of it
16:29:41 <Karen> …about half of TPI members have not yet taken part of it; get them all in the fold
16:29:50 <Karen> …I am happy to craft a message for me to do
16:30:03 <Karen> Dave: yes, that sounds more like a Team activity; more busdev, not work of the CG
16:30:11 <Karen> BillMcCoy: yes, I will do that; understood
16:30:15 <Karen> Rick: Any more questions for the CG
16:30:23 <Karen> …Bill K, your favorite agenda item
16:30:32 <Karen> …Can you and Brian update us on EPUB Test.org
16:30:51 <Karen> BillK: We want to keep this front and center, but we don't yet have a solution for how this should go forward yet
16:30:59 <Karen> …Three organizations, BISG, W3C and DAISY
16:31:15 <Karen> …while Accessibility testing George and his team have been conducting which should continue
16:31:23 <Karen> …the mainstream testing needs a radical overhaul
16:31:31 <Karen> …This is a fundamental resource for the publishing industry
16:31:37 <Karen> …but it's so out of date that it's not good
16:31:45 <Karen> …We have to figure out how to do this
16:31:49 <dauwhe> q+
16:31:56 <Karen> …So I'll turn it over the Brian and George
16:32:02 <Karen> …In terms of W3C, where does it fall?
16:32:09 <Karen> …Is it in the CG along with EPUB check?
16:32:23 <Karen> …Maybe Dave, do you want to make a comment on the way of approaching the mainstream testing?
16:32:29 <Karen> Dave: I want to update on EPUB Check
16:32:38 <Karen> …some people in CG have volunteered to do this
16:32:45 <Karen> …Rick Wright volunteered to do this
16:32:52 <Karen> …People are finding out what needs to be done
16:33:01 <Karen> …Some hope of a few volunteers to do it
16:33:10 <Karen> BillK: what about EPUB Test, different from EPUB Check?
16:33:13 <Karen> Dave: That is a large issue
16:33:31 <Karen> …Good idea to have some dedicated time to talk about this with all the various stakeholders
16:33:35 <dauwhe> ack dauwhe
16:33:38 <Karen> Brian: BISG is interested in taking the lead on this
16:33:45 <Karen> …we had a call two and a half months  ago
16:34:00 <Karen> …I volunteered to put together a problem statement as there is not a clear statement of what we want this to do
16:34:14 <tzviya> Ric Wright
16:34:19 <Karen> …On an earlier call, we agreed we want to improve implementation of EPUB across multiple devices
16:34:22 <Karen> …not sure it does that
16:34:30 <tzviya> Ric Wright's epubcheck roadmap: https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck/wiki/WorkPlan
16:34:30 <Karen> …I will create a problem statement for this group to review
16:34:48 <Karen> …Then we will take it apart and see if W3C should solve; see if George and I should work on it jointly
16:34:54 <Karen> …but let's first agree what the problem is
16:35:04 <tzviya> q+
16:35:08 <dauwhe> q+
16:35:13 <RickJ> q+
16:35:16 <Karen> BillK: by product of grid; original goal was to be a resource for publishers to know what features work in what reading systems
16:35:20 <Karen> …be a source
16:35:32 <Karen> …the fact we don't have effective pressure on reading system developers is one thing
16:35:46 <Karen> …but having publishers looking at grid and getting incorrect info is my problem
16:35:55 <Karen> …But I don't want to unplug the accessibility testing
16:36:07 <Karen> …Fundamental goal of looking up a reading system and see if it's supported
16:36:15 <Karen> …it has been dysfunctional for months
16:36:36 <Karen> Brian: This conversation is why it's important to do the problem statement
16:36:42 <Karen> …not sure I agree that's the main goal
16:36:49 <Karen> …but we should come to agreement
16:36:51 <Karen> ack Tzviya
16:36:59 <Karen> Tzviya: Brian is making a good point
16:37:13 <Karen> …may be missing things
16:37:19 <George> q+
16:37:23 <Karen> …We have said EPUB Test.org is meant to mimic
16:37:27 <dauwhe> q-
16:37:37 <Karen> …and W3C can help can I use, but W3C does not support testing internally
16:37:50 <Karen> BillK: Am I hearing you say publishing industry has given up on it as an informational resource?
16:38:04 <Karen> Tzviya: not sure to go down path right now; but just saying it's not as robust
16:38:14 <Karen> BillK: We have some stats that it was being used
16:38:20 <Karen> Tzviya: But we need professional testers
16:38:28 <Karen> BillK: scaled up to mechanism that did not work well
16:38:39 <Karen> …Dave had more of a crowd source strategy that would work better
16:38:48 <Karen> Brian: We need to come to agreement as the problem we are solving
16:38:58 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:38:58 <Zakim> Present: ivan, dauwhe, Luc, karen, wolfgang_schindler, julian_Calderazi, paul_belfanti, Schindler, RickJ, George, brian, makoto, Bill_Kasdorff, Avneesh, berhard_heinser,
16:39:02 <Zakim> ... junko_kamata, jens_klingelhöfer, laurent, tzviya, Garth, mateus, mattg, Ryan_Pugatch, rpug, mateus-teixeira, gregdavis, BillMcCoy
16:39:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see jensklingelhoefer, jkamata, MURATA, liisamk, laurentlemeur, mattg, garth, rpug, Bill_Kasdorf, gregdavis, Avneesh, George, Brian, tzviya, RickJ, rkwright, pbelfanti,
16:39:02 <Zakim> ... Schindler, mteixeira, laudrain, BillMcCoy, Julian_Calderazi, RRSAgent, Zakim, Karen, ivan, dauwhe, bigbluehat
16:39:02 <Karen> …provide better info to publishing industry or change the way EPUB is used on reading systems
16:39:10 <Karen> …review is different; which to emphasize
16:39:20 <Karen> ..put together a coherent statement of what this is doing
16:39:36 <Karen> …If we go down the road of Dave's suggestion for crowd-sourcing, I still want to know where we want to end up
16:39:49 <Karen> …it's consistent with what I am trying to do; figure out the problem we are trying to solve
16:39:57 <Karen> …I don't understand why EPUB Test rests here
16:39:58 <Karen> ack Rick
16:40:12 <Karen> Rick: Comments to make as a vendor who participated very actively in the early versions
16:40:22 <Karen> …there were three clear different goals that may not now be the same weight
16:40:31 <Karen> …there was a clear Accessibility goal that has needs of its own
16:40:38 <Karen> BillK: yes and a methodology that is different
16:40:50 <Karen> Rick: Yes, and as Tzviya said, a clear "can I use" methodology
16:41:00 <Karen> …and in its infant stages, that drove the usage decisions
16:41:04 <Karen> …to prove itself
16:41:07 <Karen> …not so much validating
16:41:24 <Karen> …in light of what we are doing for next generation EPUB we should design with this in mind
16:41:29 <Karen> BillK: great point, Rick
16:41:37 <Karen> …was not working everywhere; was one of the goals
16:41:42 <Karen> …maybe not 100 percent of features
16:41:50 <Karen> …but that is historical aspect that has gotten out of date
16:41:55 <RickJ> q?
16:42:01 <Karen> …it may no longer be a priority or necessary at all
16:42:10 <Karen> Brian: EPUB Test as a grid pre-dates EPUB 3
16:42:15 <Karen> …probably evolved within that
16:42:21 <Karen> …agree with the segmentation
16:42:45 <Karen> …Liisa McCloy-Kelley made the point that there are plenty of instances where publishers are choosing solutions
16:42:58 <Karen> …that may or may not be EPUB or a proprietary path
16:43:04 <Karen> …not sure what we are doing gets to that
16:43:08 <liisamk> q+
16:43:14 <Karen> …have standard be used; not nec in exclusion
16:43:16 <Karen> ack George
16:43:18 <RickJ> ack geo
16:43:34 <Karen> George: strategically the DAISY Consortium wanted to integrate with mainstream
16:43:40 <Karen> …previously was stand-alone
16:43:51 <Karen> …we are here to support whatever direction we decide to go in
16:44:06 <Karen> …Marissa maintaining site; Matt working on features
16:44:08 <gregdavis> +1 on communicating spec better. There is always someone within Pearson who is trying to say “move away from ePub to a walled garden”…
16:44:16 <Karen> …If we did a complete revamp, we don't have the resources to do oursleves
16:44:36 <Karen> …we do have a community manager for the Accessibility work we are doing, along with Avneesh and my participation
16:44:44 <RickJ> q?
16:44:47 <Karen> …Love to see if go forward and be integrated with whatever happens in the future
16:44:49 <RickJ> ack liisa
16:44:56 <Karen> Liisamk: I think it could be a usable resource
16:45:04 <ivan> present+ liisamk
16:45:05 <Karen> …and I could see where it could be supported
16:45:13 <Karen> …Content creators are not @
16:45:24 <Karen> …and Ereaders not necess doing it
16:45:31 <Karen> …have not seen it adopted across all systems
16:45:34 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:45:34 <Zakim> Present: ivan, dauwhe, Luc, karen, wolfgang_schindler, julian_Calderazi, paul_belfanti, Schindler, RickJ, George, brian, makoto, Bill_Kasdorff, Avneesh, berhard_heinser,
16:45:38 <Zakim> ... junko_kamata, jens_klingelhöfer, laurent, tzviya, Garth, mateus, mattg, Ryan_Pugatch, rpug, mateus-teixeira, gregdavis, BillMcCoy, liisamk
16:45:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see jensklingelhoefer, jkamata, MURATA, liisamk, laurentlemeur, mattg, garth, rpug, Bill_Kasdorf, gregdavis, Avneesh, George, Brian, tzviya, RickJ, rkwright, pbelfanti,
16:45:38 <Zakim> ... Schindler, mteixeira, laudrain, BillMcCoy, Julian_Calderazi, RRSAgent, Zakim, Karen, ivan, dauwhe, bigbluehat
16:45:41 <Karen> …maybe a simpler way to make it updated and be usable
16:45:49 <Karen> …As Tzviya pointed out right now no one uses it
16:46:00 <Karen> Rick: Brian, are you still planning to bring forth a proposal?
16:46:02 <Karen> Brian: yes
16:46:21 <Karen> …I am committed to do it if the group feels it would be of value
16:46:24 <rkwright> q+
16:46:36 <Karen> Brian: I will commit to draft something with this group before the next PBG meeting in two weeks
16:46:44 <Karen> Rick: yes, suggest you do something ahead of time on the list
16:46:47 <Karen> …then we'll discuss it
16:46:49 <Karen> Brian: Thatnks
16:46:57 <Karen> …and I will think carefully about Dave's suggestion
16:47:02 <Karen> …For the promise that this could have
16:47:13 <Karen> …We are re-configuring our [BISG] annual meeting
16:47:25 <Karen> …and say we have this standard like ONYX and here is the implementation
16:47:36 <Karen> …and here are the challenges from reading systems and proprietary
16:47:44 <garth> q?
16:47:45 <Karen> …the conversation and the selling is important for us
16:47:49 <Karen> ack RKWright
16:48:02 <Karen> rkwright: We use Readium all the time to do regression testing
16:48:12 <Karen> …it does not go far enough and has all sorts of flaws, but we do use it
16:48:22 <Karen> …I would be very interested in discussions about how to improve or replace
16:48:31 <Karen> Brian: Can I contact you outside of this call for the details?
16:48:36 <Karen> rkwright: yes, please do
16:48:46 <Karen> BillK: even if we have concluded the publishers don't use it
16:48:52 <Karen> …not nec because they don't need it
16:48:57 <Karen> …but the reading system developers
16:49:05 <Karen> …if we don't have as a publisher facing
16:49:15 <Karen> …we have lots of developers using it privately to test software
16:49:25 <Karen> …it provides a valuable service on that regard
16:49:35 <Karen> Rick: Brian, I can send you the VitalSource resource
16:49:38 <Karen> …Moving on
16:49:44 <Karen> …There has been a robust discussion
16:50:04 <Karen> Julian_Calderazi: I would like to make a comment
16:50:20 <Karen> …I agree with Liisa about the partial adoption of EPUB 3 in different channels and reading apps
16:50:28 <Karen> …there is a problem that it is not updated
16:50:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/Readium/epubtest.org
16:50:38 <Karen> …we are providing not so useful information to visitors
16:50:48 <Karen> …so we should think about information that is published now; that is an issue
16:50:52 <Karen> Rick: Great comment, thank you
16:51:01 <Karen> …Bill McCoy, the ISO submission discussion
16:51:10 <Karen> BillMcCoy: We, the PBG and EPUB 3 CG
16:51:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> that was about Ric Wright's comment: they use epubtest.org to test Readium
16:51:23 <Karen> …need to decide what stance to take on continuation of ISO specs
16:51:30 <Karen> …upgrad TS T135
16:51:44 <Karen> …or other opp to separately standardize accesibility in it's current version
16:52:03 <Karen> BillmcCoy: what are benefits, costs, and how does it stack up against other priorities
16:52:18 <Karen> …and it maybe premature to come to a recommendation but we should get everyone's input on the table
16:52:23 <Karen> …and consider other implications
16:52:28 <Karen> …role of EPUB 3 CG
16:52:44 <Karen> …Don't want to get into all that, but the PBG SC will want to address
16:52:46 <Avneesh> q+
16:52:49 <Karen> RIck: Any questions on this?
16:53:07 <garth> q?
16:53:08 <Karen> ack Avneesh
16:53:22 <Karen> Avneesh: To remind the accessibilty spec going into ISO; this was the plan at IDPF
16:53:27 <Karen> …we started discussion in 2015
16:53:31 <Karen> …under the belt of IDPF
16:53:37 <Karen> …it was there to take to ISO once mature
16:53:46 <Karen> …whether EPUB 3 will go to ISO we have to discuss
16:53:55 <Karen> …there may not be much use if it supercedes the new spec
16:54:01 <MURATA> +1
16:54:08 <Karen> …but on accessibility side, it is a high priority to take it into ISO
16:54:11 <Karen> …that is the point
16:54:14 <Karen> Rick: Great comment
16:54:15 <laudrain> +1
16:54:19 <Karen> …any other comments?
16:54:34 <Karen> …Doing a quick update on EPUB for Education
16:54:43 <Karen> …to summarize the conversation as to where it is now
16:54:51 <Karen> …EDUPUB is not a formal specification
16:54:59 <Karen> …did not get out of the late draft phase at IDPF
16:55:07 <Karen> …main goal is to find the right home for it
16:55:12 <Karen> …it evolves around EPUB 3.1
16:55:18 <Karen> …one of the things to make sure we discuss
16:55:32 <Karen> …people have been doing interesting things with EPUB @ and special vocabs
16:55:45 <Karen> …there is content in the marketplace that has to be supported
16:55:55 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:55:55 <Zakim> Present: ivan, dauwhe, Luc, karen, wolfgang_schindler, julian_Calderazi, paul_belfanti, Schindler, RickJ, George, brian, makoto, Bill_Kasdorff, Avneesh, berhard_heinser,
16:55:58 <Zakim> ... junko_kamata, jens_klingelhöfer, laurent, tzviya, Garth, mateus, mattg, Ryan_Pugatch, rpug, mateus-teixeira, gregdavis, BillMcCoy, liisamk
16:55:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see jensklingelhoefer, jkamata, MURATA, liisamk, laurentlemeur, mattg, garth, rpug, Bill_Kasdorf, gregdavis, Avneesh, George, Brian, tzviya, RickJ, rkwright, pbelfanti,
16:55:58 <Zakim> ... Schindler, mteixeira, laudrain, BillMcCoy, Julian_Calderazi, RRSAgent, Zakim, Karen, ivan, dauwhe, bigbluehat
16:56:01 <Karen> …as we look at Role; EPUB Type does not exists; we should be mindful of that
16:56:14 <Karen> …and propose a way to find a home in the CG and provide a way to move forward
16:56:26 <RickJ> q?
16:56:30 <Karen> …I will send an email out clarifying what I mean by Role and EPUB Type
16:56:34 <Avneesh> q+
16:56:36 <Karen> …wanted to invite any questions
16:56:39 <Karen> ack George
16:56:48 <Karen> George: It seems that the semantics needed in education
16:57:12 <Karen> …is a big piece of EPUB for Education plus accessibility and the anlalytics from IMS being separate
16:57:15 <pbelfanti> q+
16:57:25 <tzviya> q+ to ask about HTML structure
16:57:28 <Karen> …seems like those chunks would go a long way to creating what we have called a profile in the past
16:57:39 <Karen> …expect those semantics will be needed until we have a W3C Rec
16:57:43 <RickJ> ack avne
16:57:47 <Karen> …and will also be needed in that W3C Rec
16:58:06 <Karen> Avneesh: We have two channels; one about future and one about supporting the existing infrastructure of EPUB 3
16:58:14 <Karen> …wonder if we need to have such a radical change to depricate
16:58:21 <Karen> …if main focus is to support EPUB 3
16:58:27 <Schindler> q+
16:58:29 <Karen> …and more the more radical change in the WG rather than in the CG
16:58:32 <Karen> ack pbelfanti
16:58:36 <RickJ> ack pbelfan
16:58:45 <Karen> pbelfanti: I wanted to add onto what George said
16:58:54 <Karen> …Seems to me it can be boiled down to the semantics
16:59:18 <Karen> …Accessibility will be in 3.1 but where do we preserve the semantics to describe the complexity of the content on the education side
16:59:25 <RickJ> ack tzviy
16:59:25 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask about HTML structure
16:59:31 <Karen> Rick: and there is accessibility you get by default
16:59:49 <Karen> Tzviya: Are we doing away with @ or are they an extension from ARIA?
16:59:58 <Karen> Rick: Question implies a decision, but there has not been one
17:00:11 <Karen> …we are discussing questions and who should be making decisions and where
17:00:21 <Karen> Tzviya: I do have thoughts but not make decisions today
17:00:23 <tzviya> s/@/structural semantics
17:00:24 <Karen> ack Schindler
17:00:37 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/09-pbg-minutes.html ivan
17:00:46 <Karen> Schindler:  It is decisive who controls the attributes and whether we save our structural semantics
17:00:51 <Karen> …for the future so it does not get lost
17:01:02 <Karen> …we invested a lot of time and energy to define as IDPF specs
17:01:09 <Karen> …so we should keep it in the HTML language
17:01:22 <ivan> present+ Liisa
17:01:25 <Karen> Rick: Since I initiated this, I'll break it into parts and address by email
17:01:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Schindler re dictionary, indexes, and education semantics needing to be preserved
17:01:32 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/09-pbg-minutes.html ivan
17:01:35 <RickJ> q?
17:01:37 <Karen> …I will add up EPUB Check into the last conversation
17:01:41 <Karen> …anything urgent to bring up?
17:01:56 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/09-pbg-minutes.html ivan
17:02:01 <Karen> …Thank you all for attending. We will continue conversations by email and in two weeks
17:02:02 <ivan> zakim, bye
17:02:02 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been ivan, dauwhe, Luc, karen, wolfgang_schindler, julian_Calderazi, paul_belfanti, Schindler, RickJ, George, brian, makoto,
17:02:02 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
17:02:05 <Zakim> ... Bill_Kasdorff, Avneesh, berhard_heinser, junko_kamata, jens_klingelhöfer, laurent, tzviya, Garth, mateus, mattg, Ryan_Pugatch, rpug, mateus-teixeira, gregdavis, BillMcCoy,
17:02:05 <Zakim> ... liisamk
17:02:07 <jkamata> jkamata has left #pbg
17:02:10 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
17:02:10 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:02:10 <Karen> [meeting adjourned]