IRC log of i18n on 2017-05-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:27 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:55:31 [Zakim]
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14:55:36 [addison]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
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RRSAgent, make logs world
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Zakim, this will be 4186
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Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:55:43 [trackbot]
Date: 04 May 2017
14:55:43 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
14:55:54 [addison]
14:55:59 [addison]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:56:02 [addison]
ScribeNick: addison
14:56:14 [addison]
agenda+ Agenda
14:56:19 [addison]
agenda+ Action Items
14:56:23 [addison]
agenda+ Info Share
14:56:31 [addison]
agenda+ Radar Review
14:56:51 [addison]
agenda+ Review and close Charmod-Norm issues
14:57:02 [addison]
agenda+ OWL-Time and urgent reviews
14:57:20 [addison]
agenda+ Support for bidi in strings
14:57:33 [addison]
agenda+ Default base direction for documents
14:57:55 [addison]
Regrets: Steven, Jck (?)
14:58:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate addison
15:00:24 [Jan]
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Present+ Addison
15:01:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate addison
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15:02:25 [addison]
Present+ Jan
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15:02:28 [addison]
Present+ Richard
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15:04:07 [Bert]
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15:05:58 [addison]
Present+ Bert
15:06:03 [addison]
Present+ David
15:06:11 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:06:11 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Agenda" taken up [from addison]
15:06:12 [addison]
15:06:42 [r12a]
15:06:51 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 2
15:06:51 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Action Items" taken up [from addison]
15:06:53 [addison]
15:07:28 [addison]
15:07:28 [trackbot]
action-552 -- Addison Phillips to Write to json-ld about potential for a serialization form for natural language strings to address issues with dir and lang -- due 2016-09-29 -- OPEN
15:07:28 [trackbot]
15:07:47 [addison]
15:07:47 [trackbot]
action-554 -- Addison Phillips to Work to schedule a review of microformats -- due 2017-03-30 -- OPEN
15:07:47 [trackbot]
15:08:07 [addison]
15:08:07 [trackbot]
action-611 -- Addison Phillips to Contact martin to see if unicode-xml will be worked on soon so that wg can decide if alternate next steps are needed -- due 2017-04-27 -- OPEN
15:08:07 [trackbot]
15:08:18 [addison]
close action-611
15:08:18 [trackbot]
Closed action-611.
15:08:28 [najib]
15:09:29 [addison]
action: addison: update unicode-xml to indicate current status
15:09:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-616 - Update unicode-xml to indicate current status [on Addison Phillips - due 2017-05-11].
15:10:05 [addison]
15:10:05 [trackbot]
action-612 -- Addison Phillips to Create a bidi/lang recommendations document in order to go to tag -- due 2017-04-27 -- OPEN
15:10:05 [trackbot]
15:10:22 [addison]
15:10:22 [trackbot]
action-614 -- Addison Phillips to Ping anne about encoding tests (reviewing, etc.) -- due 2017-04-27 -- OPEN
15:10:22 [trackbot]
15:11:01 [addison]
addison: not sure what to expect from anne
15:11:09 [addison]
richard: henri going through tests
15:11:12 [addison]
... and some others
15:11:19 [addison]
.... couple of changes as a result
15:11:27 [addison]
... do they want to change or should I?
15:11:40 [addison]
... question is: see you/folks are finding time to look at tests
15:11:47 [addison]
... what do you see as next steps?
15:11:53 [addison]
... how should we be involved?
15:12:17 [addison]
15:12:17 [trackbot]
action-615 -- Addison Phillips to Finalize floating time article for publication -- due 2017-05-04 -- OPEN
15:12:17 [trackbot]
15:13:29 [addison]
action: richard: give addison access to i18n-drafts
15:13:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-617 - Give addison access to i18n-drafts [on Richard Ishida - due 2017-05-11].
15:13:50 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 3
15:13:50 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Info Share" taken up [from addison]
15:14:24 [addison]
welcoming Bert Bos
15:14:35 [addison]
bert: more than 20 years ago created the WG
15:14:40 [addison]
... have been in the group before
15:14:47 [addison]
... but have been doing other things, such as CSS
15:14:59 [addison]
... html, xml, mathml, traction protection
15:15:05 [addison]
... that's teh DNT header
15:15:08 [addison]
... at W3C a long time
15:15:17 [addison]
... since this group is looking for help reviewing
15:15:31 [addison]
... sounded interesting. hope to learn a bit more about the things I'm reviewing and i18n
15:16:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate addison
15:16:08 [addison]
15:16:11 [David_]
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15:16:13 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 4
15:16:13 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Radar Review" taken up [from addison]
15:16:21 [addison]
15:18:47 [addison]
Bert: will take ORDL
15:21:16 [addison]
15:22:22 [addison]
richard: changing tests for unicode bidi in css
15:22:25 [addison]
... in writing modes
15:22:34 [addison]
... bidi isolation didn't work according to test results page
15:22:39 [addison]
... couple of other values
15:22:45 [addison]
... but do seem to work, checked FF
15:22:50 [addison]
... and chrome seems same
15:23:01 [addison]
... still behind with Edge
15:23:05 [r12a]
15:23:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate addison
15:23:47 [addison]
richard: did work on JS course for EdX
15:23:51 [addison]
... sent comments
15:24:02 [addison]
... not a lot to say but a few things
15:24:12 [addison]
... talking about strings in later section
15:24:58 [addison]
addison: need to add the text about supplementary charasters, drafting reply to your email
15:25:07 [najib]
15:25:14 [addison]
ack najib
15:26:00 [addison]
najib: have some tests for rare cases
15:26:06 [addison]
... of isolation
15:26:17 [addison]
15:26:45 [addison]
15:28:19 [addison]
15:28:59 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 8
15:28:59 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Default base direction for documents" taken up [from addison]
15:29:42 [David]
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15:29:52 [r12a]
15:30:06 [addison]
richard: two links, first is to a ttml issue
15:30:12 [addison]
... there should be an 'auto' value
15:30:27 [addison]
... largely about usefulness of auto for insertion of text
15:30:33 [addison]
... but another way it can be useful
15:30:43 [addison]
... can be useful as "overall direction" for the document
15:30:51 [addison]
... currently we say that the default should be ltr
15:31:07 [addison]
... so if you run across ARabic and don't mark it, it will look wrong
15:31:18 [addison]
... default auto would use strong character in text to determine
15:31:45 [najib]
15:32:01 [addison]
addison: inherits down
15:32:14 [addison]
richard: use xsl model for establishing direction in ttml
15:32:29 [addison]
... region auto
15:32:49 [addison]
... only have to supply span in cases where rtl paragraphs or spans don't start with a strong
15:32:57 [addison]
... suggested this to webvtt I think?
15:33:02 [addison]
... think they accepted
15:33:10 [addison]
... mati thought it sounded logical
15:33:13 [addison]
ack najib
15:33:25 [addison]
najib: agree on the intention
15:33:30 [addison]
... it depends on the text in question
15:33:35 [addison]
... if the text is in an html page
15:33:46 [addison]
... page normally begins with title
15:34:01 [addison]
... title may not have same text as normal paragraph
15:34:10 [najib]
15:34:23 [addison]
... have many texts that being with "W3C... (something)..."
15:34:33 [addison]
... so always start with a first strong of "W"
15:34:48 [addison]
richard: those are cases that have to be addressed
15:34:55 [addison]
... if ttml is by default auto
15:35:05 [addison]
... dont' have to add rtl at doc top in every doc
15:35:21 [addison]
... in sitution like w3c---something--- have to do something
15:36:46 [addison]
addison: concerned about layout effects of this
15:37:09 [addison]
richard: could do a couple of things,
15:37:17 [addison]
... in spec-dev could say make default auto
15:37:26 [addison]
... or say ltr-or-auto
15:37:31 [addison]
... with discussion of pros-cons
15:37:48 [addison]
... true for new formats. for ttml not probably usable
15:38:08 [addison]
... xsl model, overall direction for region derives from writing-mode
15:38:32 [addison]
... css no longer includes text direction in writing-mode
15:38:42 [addison]
... writing-mode has no allowance for auto
15:38:55 [addison]
... already have vast number of values for writing-mode
15:39:04 [addison]
... but wanted to bring up question
15:39:38 [addison]
David: support this
15:39:52 [addison]
... if ltr default and we change
15:40:00 [addison]
... won't break anything I think
15:42:01 [addison]
addison: suggest we go to larger community?
15:42:35 [addison]
action: richard: create a short document about making direction default recommendation to be 'auto' and send to www-international@ for review
15:42:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-618 - Create a short document about making direction default recommendation to be 'auto' and send to www-international@ for review [on Richard Ishida - due 2017-05-11].
15:42:47 [addison]
15:43:06 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 6
15:43:06 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "OWL-Time and urgent reviews" taken up [from addison]
15:43:54 [addison]
15:44:21 [Bert]
scribenick: Bert
15:45:10 [Bert]
addison: Most key thing is OWL time describes a whole bunch of things, non-gregorian calendars, etc.
15:45:26 [Bert]
... Fine from LOD POV, but
15:45:52 [addison]
15:45:55 [Bert]
... looks problematic from i18n.
15:46:32 [Bert]
... Time zones don't use IANA IDs.
15:46:48 [Bert]
... And maybe there's a false assumption about how TZs work, in terms of offset.
15:47:11 [Bert]
r12a: Is that in one of their examples?
15:47:15 [Bert]
addison: Yes
15:47:49 [Bert]
... The standard for time zone in general is IANA. has their own, not IANA.
15:48:00 [Bert]
... The example uses abbreviations.
15:48:22 [Bert]
r12a: Level of coverage?
15:48:35 [Bert]
addison: I'm not sure about the level of coverage.
15:48:45 [Bert]
r12a: The example is not a real site...
15:48:47 [addison]
15:49:24 [Bert]
addison: Sorry, it's the domain ^^^
15:49:36 [Bert]
r12a: No objection from moe to sending this comment.
15:49:43 [Bert]
15:49:56 [addison]
15:50:09 [Bert]
r12a: As separate comments?
15:50:12 [Bert]
addison: Yes
15:50:51 [Bert]
addison: Need links to Gregorian calendar for "general"
15:50:55 [addison]
15:51:35 [Bert]
addison: Time units week, etc. can take decimal value: "6.7 weeks"
15:51:49 [Bert]
... Not entirely clear what those periods are.
15:52:03 [addison]
15:52:15 [Bert]
r12a: Comment sounds good to me.
15:52:51 [Bert]
addison: Week number from ISO, but different countries count weeks differently.
15:53:15 [Bert]
r12a: Several countries have different first days for the week, Sunday/Monday.
15:53:29 [Bert]
addison: This is also about what is the first week.
15:53:32 [najib]
Or Friday
15:53:35 [addison]
15:54:21 [Bert]
r12a: "First week of the year is the week containing the first Thursday". Is that an attempt to get around that?
15:54:45 [Bert]
... Might be good to add some of that detail to your comment.
15:55:19 [Bert]
addison: Description of time zone: they say it's a region and an offet, but it is really a bit more than that.
15:55:22 [najib]
s/Or Friday//
15:55:28 [Bert]
... And the possibility of future changes.
15:55:40 [Bert]
r12a: You might want to point to them to one of our documents,
15:55:52 [addison]
15:56:02 [addison]
15:56:25 [Bert]
addison: Last issue is conversion to Gregorian.
15:56:51 [Bert]
... Most times have a defined relation to Gregorian.
15:57:24 [addison]
15:57:30 [Bert]
... Any comments or objections to these six issues?
15:57:56 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 7
15:57:56 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Support for bidi in strings" taken up [from addison]
15:58:03 [Bert]
addison: Do we want to talk about bidi strings today? We have 3 minutes.
15:58:09 [Bert]
r12a: Happy to.
15:58:14 [addison]
15:58:59 [Bert]
addison: I pointed to our other docs about lang. and base direction.
15:59:12 [Bert]
... Added quick pros and cons.
16:00:00 [Bert]
... Example of Payment API spec added dictionary pattern.
16:00:00 [r12a]
16:00:45 [Bert]
r12a: Biggest comment is that Tantek will probably say there is a third option: use control characters from Unicode.
16:01:02 [Bert]
addison: That doesn't solve the language problem.
16:01:21 [Bert]
r12a: But it is worth mentioning.
16:01:36 [Bert]
addison: As a "Solution 3" that we don't recommend?
16:01:53 [Bert]
r12a: Not sure it's a solutuion 3.
16:02:07 [r12a]
could be just an additional paragraphy
16:02:12 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate r12a
16:02:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate addison
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16:03:30 [r12a]
present- Richard
16:03:33 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:03:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate r12a
16:03:39 [addison]
Note: Leonie's request was about ARIA
16:04:13 [r12a]
16:04:18 [r12a]
will you reply?
16:04:42 [r12a]
s/<addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference//
16:06:08 [r12a]
s/but do seem to work/but now do seem to work/
16:07:33 [r12a]
s/use xsl model/TTML uses xsl model/
16:07:41 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:07:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate r12a
16:08:44 [behnam]
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16:09:19 [r12a]
s/xsl model, overall direction/actually, in the TTML case they use the xsl model, overall direction/
16:09:59 [r12a]
s/actually, in the TTML case they use the xsl model, overall direction/xsl model, overall direction/
16:10:03 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:10:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate r12a
16:11:04 [r12a]
s/already have vast number/TTML use the XSL model and so already have vast number - adding auto would increase that substantially/
16:11:06 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:11:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate r12a
16:13:01 [r12a]
addison: yep
16:13:13 [r12a]
16:13:16 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:13:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate r12a
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