12:03:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
12:03:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/04/12-shapes-irc
12:03:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
12:03:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
12:03:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
12:03:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
12:03:55 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
12:03:55 <trackbot> Date: 12 April 2017
12:04:02 <TallTed> present+
12:04:10 <TallTed> chair: TallTed
12:04:26 <pano> present+
12:04:32 <sandro> sandro has joined #shapes
12:04:49 <sandro> +1 later is nice
12:04:55 <TallTed> present+ ipolikof
12:05:01 <TallTed> present+ hknublau
12:06:12 <TallTed> present+ sandro
12:06:25 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?
12:06:25 <Zakim> Present: TallTed, pano, ipolikof, hknublau, sandro
12:06:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see sandro, Zakim, RRSAgent, pano, ipolikof, TallTed, hknublau, rhiaro, trackbot
12:08:21 <Nicky> Nicky has joined #shapes
12:09:05 <TallTed> scribenick: ipolikof
12:09:22 <TallTed> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 05 April 2017 Telecon: https://www.w3.org/2017/04/05-shapes-minutes.html
12:09:36 <hknublau> +1
12:09:37 <ipolikof> +1
12:09:42 <sandro> +1
12:09:47 <pano> +1
12:09:48 <TallTed> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 05 April 2017 Telecon: https://www.w3.org/2017/04/05-shapes-minutes.html
12:09:59 <Nicky> present+
12:10:55 <TallTed> TOPIC: CR Process
12:11:03 <ipolikof> call next week, but we will run the poll to see if time change is better for people
12:11:26 <ipolikof> for now, it is the same time
12:12:27 <ipolikof> sandro: SHACL for SHACL appendix is no longer marked as "at risk", but the language changed to give us flexibility to fix bugs
12:13:44 <ipolikof> sandro: no charter extension yet, if we can get out of CR before the group expires, it is a mechanical process after that and we are guaranteed an extension
12:14:32 <ipolikof> sandro: we will not know about the extension decision until mid May
12:15:42 <ipolikof> Nicky: We just finished implementation, no implementation report yet
12:16:18 <ipolikof> sandro: no need to open source, you just need to run the test suite and give us results
12:16:58 <ipolikof> hknublau: there is an example of a .ttl file to send
12:17:17 <ipolikof> Nicky: I will look into it next week and will send
12:17:54 <ipolikof> sandro: anyone else we can reach to?
12:19:12 <ipolikof> Dimitris had an implementation. He said it would take only 2 days to add SHACL-SPARQL. He probably needs to update to because there has been changes since he implemented. Not sure if he has time.
12:20:33 <ipolikof> sandro: SHACL-SPARQL is at risk. There are issues Peter raised. Director said that if the implementations prove there are no issues, then we can go ahead. Otherwise, we will need to split it into a WG Note.
12:21:05 <ipolikof> TallTed: Does the test suite covers SAHCL-SPARQL
12:21:21 <ipolikof> hknublau: It does, but may be not all scenarious
12:21:47 <ipolikof> TallTed: can we send an e-mail to encourage implementers to submit?
12:21:50 <TallTed> TOPIC: Link from shacl.ttl to shacl-shacl.ttl
12:21:50 <TallTed> thread - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2017Apr/0012.html
12:21:57 <ipolikof> hknublau: I can do the e-mail
12:22:56 <ipolikof> sandro: procedurally, Peter's objections are considered to be addressed, we no longer have any objections.
12:24:42 <ipolikof> sandro: DIrector wants a semantic link to shacl-shacl, rdfs:seeAlso will not do because it is not semantic
12:27:12 <ipolikof> hknublau: sh:shapesGraph is intended to point from instances (data graph) to shapes. shacl.ttl file will be imported into many shapes graphs. we probably need a new property.
12:27:49 <sandro> "a suggested shapes graph for use with this ontology"
12:28:13 <sandro> "recommended default value for sh:shapesGraph"
12:28:22 <sandro> "defaultShapesGraph"
12:28:33 <ipolikof> sandro: what would we name a new property and its description. Basically, this is a default shapes graph
12:28:44 <sandro> ted: "default" sounds like there will be a behavior, "suggested" is more human
12:29:03 <TallTed> s/ted:/TallTed:/
12:29:33 <ipolikof> TallTed: By calling it default, you are suggesting a behaviour. Better suggestedShapesGraph
12:31:19 <ipolikof> TallTed: There could be multiple suggested shapes graphs, companies could create their own and tools could be built to ask the user which one they want to use
12:32:07 <ipolikof> hknublau: We will be changing the spec to introduce the new property. Is it OK?
12:33:03 <ipolikof> sandro: I will ask the Director. Another option is to put this property into extensions. Has the group talked about extensions?
12:33:11 <ipolikof> TallTed: not yet
12:34:12 <ipolikof> sandro: The namespace changes with credible extension, but the spec doesn't. The spec has non normative text to tell people to look for possible extensions in the namespace
12:35:11 <ipolikof> hknublau: I will add the new property sh:suggestedShapesGraph into the namespace
12:35:41 <ipolikof> pano: suggested sounds fake, can we call it SHACL shapes graph?
12:36:09 <ipolikof> hknublau: No the idea is that this could be for any shapes graph, not just shacl-shacl
12:36:29 <ipolikof> pano: OK, then suggested makes more sense
12:36:50 <pano> s/fake/vague
12:37:01 <ipolikof> hknublau: we could put it into http header, but this would not be Linked Data
12:37:13 <TallTed> PROPOSED: add (first) extension to SHACL for sh:suggestedShapesGraph, with description and initial predicate pointing from shacl.ttl to shacl-shacl.ttl
12:37:18 <ipolikof> +1
12:37:21 <hknublau> +1
12:37:23 <sandro> +1
12:37:24 <pano> +1
12:37:27 <TallTed> +1
12:37:53 <Nicky> +1
12:38:12 <ipolikof> Jack Hodges - +1
12:38:14 <TallTed> RESOLVED: add (first) extension to SHACL for sh:suggestedShapesGraph, with description and initial predicate pointing from shacl.ttl to shacl-shacl.ttl
12:38:26 <TallTed> present+ Jack Hodges
12:38:42 <TallTed> TOPIC: Potential WG Notes
12:39:08 <TallTed> • SHACL Compact Syntax (potentially): http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl-compact-syntax/
12:39:09 <TallTed> • SHACL-SPARQL Advanced Features (planned): http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl-asf/
12:39:09 <TallTed> • SHACL-JS (potentially): http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl-js/
12:40:49 <ipolikof> hknublau: I worked on compact syntax, we were chartered to do one, some people prefer it. What I have is not a complete coverage, but it covers a good subset of SHACL Core
12:42:26 <ipolikof> hknublau: I am about half way through ANTLR grammar which is linked in the document. I also started to work on test cases to help my own implementation. My proposal is to publish this as a WG Note.
12:43:28 <ipolikof> TallTed: It needs some prose. Otherwise, looks definitely useful
12:43:49 <ipolikof> sandro: how similar to ShEx compact syntax?
12:44:11 <ipolikof> hknublau: very similar, but adopted to SHACL semantics
12:44:43 <ipolikof> sandro: may be worthwhile noting the differences
12:45:06 <ipolikof> hknublau: probably in the wiki page because ShEx will evolve
12:45:46 <ipolikof> hknublau: anybody has concerns, we are introducing another syntax, people will start using it, are we splitting the community?
12:46:05 <ipolikof> TallTed: this is just a syntactic sugar
12:46:30 <ipolikof> sandro: Tests are needed
12:46:58 <ipolikof> hknublau: I will do some tests, but this is a side project only
12:47:12 <ipolikof> sandro: As a user I would find it apealing
12:48:10 <ipolikof> hknublau: As a tool vendor, we would probably give users a text editor to type this in, but turn it into RDF, so not use it as an exchange format
12:49:16 <ipolikof> sandro: This is less important than the test suite, so if this is a distraction from the test suite we should not spend time on this
12:49:44 <ipolikof> sandro: need to think about corner cases on the test suite, we need it to be complete
12:50:05 <ipolikof> hknublau: I tried as much as I could think of, need input
12:50:58 <ipolikof> sandro: something to add to the implementers outreach e-mail, asking if anyone could suggest tests
12:51:35 <ipolikof> TallTed: Advanced features WG Note
12:52:44 <ipolikof> hknublau: This was spun of from the spec in January, it includes features we promised in previous decisions, started to work on this with Simon, but so far he has not done much
12:52:55 <ipolikof> Can Dean help there?
12:53:50 <ipolikof> hknublau: Yes, this is probably of some interest to Dean, I can ask. Also need to ask Simon how much time he has
12:54:10 <ipolikof> hknublau: JS extension
12:54:32 <ipolikof> pano: have a client who is interested  in this, would be nice
12:54:53 <ipolikof> TallTed: is this parallel to SHACL-SPARQL?
12:55:14 <ipolikof> hknublau: Yes, I have a playground implementation
12:56:03 <ipolikof> TallTed: I have no personal objection to this going out as a note, as long as this does not interfere with the main activity of testing
12:56:42 <TallTed> TOPIC: Test Suite
12:56:51 <ipolikof> TallTed: If the WG ends quickly, we can publish them as Notes, if we get extended, we could think of getting some of this on the CR track
12:57:18 <ipolikof> pano: interesting e-mail on the public mailing list
12:57:29 <pano> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-shapes/2017Apr/0015.html
12:58:26 <ipolikof> hknublau: I did not respond intentionally, to see if anyone in the community responds
12:59:01 <ipolikof> TallTed: Do we have an example? If not, can we add one to the spec?
12:59:34 <ipolikof> Holger, can you add an example?
13:00:06 <ipolikof> hknublau: There are many scenarios, why adding this one?
13:00:27 <ipolikof> sandro: We are free to add editorial changes
13:02:42 <ipolikof> What do we want in the primer? Is it more examples?
13:03:05 <ipolikof> TallTed: Typically, primer is a simple "hello word"
13:03:49 <ipolikof> sandro: Primer is that, cookbook would have more examples, things people would not think about, best practices
13:04:13 <ipolikof> TallTed: We could start FAQs
13:04:32 <ipolikof> This would be towards the cookbook?
13:04:51 <ipolikof> TallTed: Yes, community driven
13:04:58 <ipolikof> Wiki page then?
13:05:35 <ipolikof> sandro: We could put it in the W3C wiki so it continues to be editable after the WG ends
13:06:35 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/wiki
13:06:49 <ipolikof> TallTed: I am more likely to contribute if it was in the wiki, not github
13:06:55 <ipolikof> me too
13:06:56 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Shacl/whatever
13:06:57 <TallTed> PROPOSED: we will set up a W3C wiki page as a base FAQ, for community-driven Q&A towards "SHACL-cookbook"
13:07:30 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Shacl/Examples maybe
13:07:39 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SHACL/Examples maybe
13:08:37 <ipolikof> we will send e-mail to the public mailing list announcing this
13:09:00 <TallTed> TOPIC: AOB
13:09:00 <sandro> http://doodle.com/poll/c9suraca8rucrpnw
13:10:02 <TallTed> s/http/schedule doodle poll - http/
13:10:20 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:10:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/12-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
13:10:23 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:10:44 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:11:00 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:11:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/12-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
13:11:48 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:11:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/12-shapes-minutes.html sandro
13:11:56 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make minutes public
13:11:56 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', TallTed.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:12:50 <TallTed> trackbot, end meeting
13:12:50 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
13:12:50 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TallTed, pano, ipolikof, hknublau, sandro, Nicky, Jack, Hodges
13:12:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:12:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/12-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
13:12:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
13:12:59 <RRSAgent> I see no action items