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12:09:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/04/03-poe-irc
12:09:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:09:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
12:09:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
12:09:47 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
12:09:47 <trackbot> Date: 03 April 2017
12:10:09 <phila> regrets+ Victor, Brian, Serena, Ivan
12:10:40 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170403
12:10:49 <phila> Chair: Renato
12:11:01 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:11:05 <phila> present+
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12:30:30 <renato> present+
12:31:13 <michaelS> present+
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12:34:01 <Sabrina> present+ sabrina
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12:34:55 <Sabrina> I will scribe
12:34:55 <benws_> present+
12:35:29 <phila> scribe: Sabrina
12:35:32 <phila> scribeNick: Sabrina
12:35:33 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-minutes
12:35:41 <phila> Topic: Last week's minutes
12:35:44 <smyles> present+
12:35:50 <phila> [Nothing heard]
12:35:51 <Sabrina> Any comments on the last minutes, otherwise I take silence as approval
12:35:59 <Sabrina> Accepted
12:36:00 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Deliverables
12:36:03 <phila> RESOLUTION: Last week's minutes accepted
12:36:10 <phila> Topic: Wide Review
12:36:15 <Sabrina> Update on the wide and horizontal reviews
12:36:22 <michaelS> q+
12:36:47 <Sabrina> Renato: Just waiting for feedback. Ben did you speak to Brian about the internationalisation
12:36:52 <phila> ack m
12:37:12 <Sabrina> Michael: Would it help to indicate who has replied. I have done this.
12:37:26 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/118
12:37:46 <michaelS> q-
12:37:54 <Sabrina> Renato: Probably a good idea. I have done this the other way around from the issue. Good idea to populate both lists
12:38:08 <Sabrina> renato: Back tht einternationalisation
12:38:29 <Sabrina> benws_: I haven't had a chance yet. I will followup.
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12:38:42 <Sabrina> renato: Nothing else to report
12:39:14 <phila> Topic: Testing
12:39:15 <Sabrina> Topic: Define and setup testing
12:39:28 <phila> s/Topic: Testing//
12:40:00 <Sabrina> renato: After we get the feedback we need to setup things in order to get to CR e.g. leader for testing
12:40:17 <Sabrina> phila: We haven't talked about it in a while
12:41:01 <Sabrina> ... we need independent implementation that work the same way - one way is to setup a test suite - including inputs and outputs
12:41:16 <Sabrina> ... This can be another note or maybe even a github repo
12:41:43 <benws_> q+
12:41:44 <smyles> q+
12:41:51 <Sabrina> ... A set of machine readable policies and demonstrate that there is more that one implementation - given the same input we get the same output
12:42:12 <Sabrina> Renato: How would that look for us given we don't do any processing
12:42:35 <Sabrina> benws_: We are using a validator for the terms that we use... not the whole vocabulary
12:43:10 <Sabrina> phila: Each individual piece of software does not need to cover everything
12:43:18 <Sabrina> benws_: Do we need to make this public
12:43:41 <Sabrina> phila: No it doesn't need to be public, you just need to give us the information
12:45:11 <Sabrina> smyles: We had an ODRL engine with 3 things for testing - 1) the policy, 2) the result (yes, no or maybe) and 3) the context (who is the assignee, what country or city are they from, what action are they trying to perform)
12:45:20 <Sabrina> ... This was enough for us
12:45:48 <Sabrina> benws_: It sounds like you were testing a processing model. However we need to syntactically validate policies.
12:45:48 <phila> "This will require the ODRL Policy to be interpreted with the additional information identified by the URI."
12:45:57 <Sabrina> ... is that correct Phil
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12:46:55 <Sabrina> phila: Just did a search for interrupted - points to a concrete example - how one choses to use this information is out of scope for the working group
12:47:24 <Sabrina> ... this is perfectly ok, however the uses need to be consistent and we must show they are consistent with one another
12:47:34 <renato> The processing model for Constraint Relations includes:
12:47:34 <Sabrina> benws_: Sounds like a processing model
12:47:53 <Sabrina> renato: Points to the 9 steps listed in the processing model
12:47:54 <renato> https://w3c.github.io/poe/model/#constraint-relations
12:48:15 <phila> s/interrupted/interpret/
12:49:02 <Sabrina> renato: Put up a test e.g. to say expressions need to be atomic
12:49:23 <Sabrina> ... There are a few points were we can pull out a processing model and turn them into a text case
12:49:36 <simonstey> present+
12:50:08 <phila> q+
12:50:09 <Sabrina> benws_: We can check is this a valid piece of ODRL and does it allow me to take this action
12:50:12 <phila> ack b
12:50:19 <Sabrina> ... the 2nd is more enforcement
12:50:25 <smyles> q-
12:50:32 <Sabrina> ... I guess we need to avoid this
12:50:44 <smyles> q+
12:50:51 <Sabrina> phila: Apart from being valid RDF, what is valid ORDL
12:51:03 <Sabrina> benws_: Enforcement of the information model
12:51:16 <Sabrina> phila: Yes they are different.
12:52:19 <phila> ShEx or SHACL
12:52:24 <Sabrina> ... Vaidation could be done in various ways 1) Shacl and 2) ShEx
12:52:52 <Sabrina> The group proposes to the director what the exit criteria should be
12:53:21 <Sabrina> Phil: You could suggest multiple instances (at least twice) of all of the terms
12:53:46 <Sabrina> ... For core terms they should of course be used much more
12:54:05 <Sabrina> ... Plus examples of real live ODRL policies
12:54:57 <Sabrina> ... It would also be good to indicate the type of uses we've heard about that would be good aswell (e..g what Ben and Stewart are doing)
12:55:16 <Sabrina> ... Details of real world valid use
12:55:26 <Sabrina> benws_: What needs to be in the tests
12:55:39 <Sabrina> phila: All the terms and all the constraints
12:55:56 <Sabrina> ... build some kind of software and test against it
12:56:20 <Sabrina> renato: ... build the tests including invalid tests
12:56:28 <Sabrina> phila: yes
12:56:37 <benws_> q?
12:56:52 <Sabrina> renato: does the test suite need to be complete before the F2F
12:57:06 <Sabrina> ... How much needs to be complete by May
12:57:24 <Sabrina> phila: It doesn't need to be complete, it should be started
12:57:40 <Sabrina> ... with the experience in this group it should not take too long
12:57:56 <Sabrina> ... plus you might find that you need to change it later when you are in CR
12:58:16 <Sabrina> smyles: I would like to remind the group that ODRL is not just RDF
12:58:19 <phila> s/change/add to it/
12:58:39 <Sabrina> ... We will also need to do XML validation
12:59:13 <phila> +1 to smyles
12:59:27 <Sabrina> ... It would be useful to evaluate engines that process ODRL and when 2 different engines process ODRL they come to the same answer
12:59:40 <phila> q+
12:59:48 <phila> ack smyles
12:59:51 <Sabrina> ... this would be ambitious by May but ultimately very helpful
13:00:05 <Sabrina> renato: It depends on how complete it needs to be
13:00:26 <Sabrina> ... however this would give the director confidence
13:00:47 <Sabrina> ... we need to ask the group if someone would like to lead this piece of work
13:01:25 <Sabrina> ... so that we have some test cases for the F2F meeting in May
13:01:49 <Sabrina> smyles: Is the challenge organising the work or doing the testing?
13:02:17 <Sabrina> renato: This is really about managing the  process (getting the test cases ready to go)
13:03:12 <Sabrina> phila: I could have a go... I'm not sure if I can do the whole thing but I could certainly write some examples
13:03:24 <Sabrina> ... Sabrina are building a parser as part of SPECIAL
13:04:02 <Sabrina> ... We are modelling at the moment, so if depends on how that goes
13:04:09 <phila> q-
13:04:17 <Sabrina> renato: Thanks Phil for kicking that off
13:04:32 <Sabrina> ... any other questions on the testing regime?
13:04:35 <Sabrina> Nope
13:04:44 <Sabrina> Topic: Notes
13:04:57 <Sabrina> Any update Simon on the formal semantics
13:05:13 <simonstey> will have a call in the next weeks
13:05:39 <phila> Sabrina: We have exchanged some e-mails about formal semantics. We'll kick off next week when Ivan is back from WWW in Perth
13:05:59 <Sabrina> renato: Ben any update on the best practices
13:06:08 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/track/actions/open
13:06:08 <Sabrina> Topic: Open Actions
13:06:26 <Sabrina> renato: Ben and Phil and update on your actions
13:06:43 <michaelS> q+
13:06:51 <Sabrina> phila: No update on the accessibility usecase
13:07:18 <Sabrina> smyles: Question on versioning
13:07:19 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:London2017
13:07:30 <Sabrina> Topic: F2F London
13:07:43 <Sabrina> benws_: I can confirm the address is correct
13:08:38 <Sabrina> renato: I have prepared a draft agenda... wide review, horizontal review etc...
13:08:48 <phila> q+
13:08:52 <Sabrina> benws_: Renato will you attend in person?
13:09:08 <Sabrina> renato: I'm not sure at this point
13:09:15 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues
13:09:21 <Sabrina> Topic: Issues on the github
13:09:51 <Sabrina> michaelS: There are currently 18 issues, however it is not clear how these issues can be resolved
13:10:10 <michaelS> 18 open issues
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13:10:27 <Sabrina> renato: We should talk about some of these next week - especially the ones that say need working group decision
13:10:37 <Sabrina> ... we could maybe tackle 2 per call
13:10:43 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/22
13:10:45 <Sabrina> ... example is number 22
13:10:54 <phila> ack michaelS
13:11:05 <Sabrina> ... proposal from Simon to remove the inherit relation
13:11:25 <Sabrina> ... this is probably something that the editors can not decide as it is really a group decision
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13:11:43 <Sabrina> phila: All of these need to be closed before seeking CR transition
13:12:40 <Sabrina> ... one relates to the usecase document. Do we plan to do more work on the usecase document? If so we can do this and republish the usecase document. If not we should close it and say why.
13:12:59 <Sabrina> renato: We hope to close as many as possible before the F2F
13:13:01 <simonstey> I'll address the ucr issue until next week
13:13:20 <Sabrina> ... it would be good to at least discuss them before the F2F
13:13:24 <simonstey> I encourage everyone to read through the spec and raise issues themselves
13:13:44 <Sabrina> ... I would like to propose a couple of github issues per week for discussion on the weekly call
13:14:01 <Sabrina> ... will start with the ones that say need working group decision
13:14:13 <Sabrina> Topic: AOB
13:15:04 <renato> IPTC
13:15:05 <Sabrina> Phil: I have a talk at the IPTC, will anyone else be there?
13:15:48 <Sabrina> ... I will endeavour to prepare the presentation in advance and get your feedback
13:16:12 <Sabrina> simonstey: I have been briefing the IPTC group for sometime on ODRL and now POE
13:16:49 <simonstey> s/simonstey/smyles
13:16:55 <Sabrina> michaelS: I think it would help to clarify what the W3C review requirements are, the IPTC people will not be familiar with these
13:17:09 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
13:17:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/03-poe-minutes.html phila
13:17:45 <simonstey> https://www.w3.org/2008/04/scribe.html
13:18:28 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
13:18:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/03-poe-minutes.html phila
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