IRC log of lvtf on 2017-03-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:51:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
13:51:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/03/30-lvtf-irc
13:51:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:51:14 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
13:51:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:51:14 [trackbot]
Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:51:14 [trackbot]
Date: 30 March 2017
13:54:36 [allanj]
chair: jim
13:54:43 [allanj]
regrets: Glenda
14:39:47 [allanj]
Agenda+ Adapting Text...Add bullet to Adapting text to "increase spacing between columns"
14:39:48 [allanj]
Agenda+ User Interface Contrast
14:39:50 [allanj]
Agenda+ joint meeting with COGA about personalization
14:39:51 [allanj]
Agenda+ Understanding Template https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Understanding_template_for_SC
14:40:03 [allanj]
zakim, clear agenda
14:40:03 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:40:30 [allanj]
Agenda+ Adapting Text...Add bullet to Adapting text to "increase spacing between columns"
14:40:32 [allanj]
Agenda+ User Interface Contrast
14:40:33 [allanj]
Agenda+ joint meeting with COGA about personalization
14:40:35 [allanj]
Agenda+ Understanding Template https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Understanding_template_for_SC
14:55:47 [laura]
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14:59:15 [shawn]
present: Jim, Wayne, Scott, Shawn, Laura
14:59:37 [ScottM]
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15:01:19 [alastairc]
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15:01:34 [shawn]
present+ Marla, AlastairC
15:01:54 [Marla]
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15:03:02 [laura]
present+ Laura
15:03:48 [allanj]
regrest+ Erich
15:04:04 [Wayne]
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15:04:10 [laura]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Scribe_List
15:04:20 [Wayne]
scribe: Wayne
15:04:37 [Wayne]
zakim, take up item 1
15:04:37 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Adapting Text...Add bullet to Adapting text to "increase spacing between columns"" taken up [from allanj]
15:05:30 [shawn]
present+ JohnR
15:06:42 [JohnRochford]
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15:06:56 [JohnRochford]
present+ JohnRochford
15:07:10 [Wayne]
present+ Wayne
15:07:14 [shawn]
present- JohnR
15:07:19 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:07:19 [Zakim]
Present: Jim, Wayne, Scott, Shawn, Laura, Marla, AlastairC, JohnRochford
15:08:31 [steverep]
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15:08:44 [steverep]
present+steverep
15:09:04 [shawn]
Thanks! for bringing issues to the call (especially for those of use who are not able to keep up with all the threads)
15:09:45 [shawn]
s/of use/of us
15:12:32 [allanj]
more info - https://alastairc.ac/2017/02/four-levels-of-accessibility-customisation/
15:13:00 [allanj]
+1 to separate SC for layout/spacing between columns
15:13:10 [Wayne]
Laura: Column spacing would disrupt layout more than that.
15:14:06 [Wayne]
Alastair: Against because it takes it up a difficulty level. The author must enable.
15:14:31 [Wayne]
... we can tackle as a separate .
15:14:55 [Wayne]
Resolution: Not have the extra bullet for extra spacing between columns.
15:14:58 [alastairc]
+1 to keep column layout separate.
15:15:31 [Wayne]
RESOLUTION: Not have the extra bullet for extra spacing between columns.
15:15:46 [allanj]
Topic: Mechanism Language
15:15:58 [laura]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78#issuecomment-289434649
15:16:17 [allanj]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Consensus_Tally_for_Adapting_Text_SC_Text
15:16:21 [Wayne]
Laura: There is debate about mechanism.
15:18:04 [allanj]
mechanism - author fallback if user override fails (when author does something strange)
15:18:27 [Wayne]
Alastair: It is worth examination: The mechanism is trying. If the author provides a mechanism then they are responsible. I'm not sure that is effective. The mechanism will not have the same flexibility. The spacing will only have only be in steps. There is no fall back.
15:19:37 [Wayne]
Laura: If we have the mechanism language we would have AAA.
15:20:06 [Wayne]
JohnRochford: Why would it not be a definition.
15:20:25 [Wayne]
Laura: Whether we have a mechanism definition.
15:20:38 [allanj]
mechanism is a squishy definition
15:21:14 [laura]
2 proposals: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78#issuecomment-289434649
15:22:08 [Wayne]
Jim: Original intent was not get in the way. Mechanism, got in the way.
15:22:47 [laura]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78#issuecomment-290427151
15:23:06 [allanj]
The following text styles of the page can be overridden with no loss of essential content or functionality:
15:23:07 [allanj]
-font family to different font family
15:23:09 [allanj]
-foreground and background to a single different foreground color and a single different background color
15:23:10 [allanj]
-line spacing (leading) to at least 1.5 within paragraphs
15:23:10 [Wayne]
Laura: It is looking like it is coming around.
15:23:12 [allanj]
-paragraph spacing to at least 1.5 times larger than the line spacing
15:23:13 [allanj]
-letter spacing (tracking) to at least 0.12 em
15:23:15 [allanj]
-word spacing to at least 0.16 em.
15:23:16 [allanj]
NOTE: The goal is that pages also work with larger spacing than the minimums cited, but the SC is met if the "at least" value is met.
15:24:19 [allanj]
alastiar: it is the action of changeing/overriding that breaks thing.
15:24:26 [Wayne]
Alastair: If you apply the marklet, on the adobe site it works fine.
15:24:53 [allanj]
icon fonts are an issue, and a few other things
15:25:58 [allanj]
wayne: JasonW point. when wcag put into law.... implementing is difficult. Intent has to be clear. but not too specific
15:26:30 [allanj]
... will have thinks like icon fonts, talks about metrics.
15:26:49 [allanj]
laura: add to techniques
15:27:59 [allanj]
alaistair: team that tests pages - 30 min to 3hrs per page. adapting text will be a manual check, need to be some way to automate the testing. sampling is an issue.
15:28:19 [allanj]
... perhaps reversing foreground/background color
15:28:30 [allanj]
... as an easy test
15:28:44 [allanj]
Jim: +1 to reversing
15:29:13 [allanj]
wayne: 3 color test.
15:29:42 [allanj]
alastair: good technique
15:30:25 [allanj]
alastair: need in SC. colors in page is robust to color change
15:30:47 [allanj]
s/page is/page are
15:31:33 [allanj]
alastair: change bullet - Reverse color scheme
15:31:36 [steverep]
q+ reversal might be dangerous
15:33:49 [allanj]
stever: most AT, and mobiles, have color reversal mechanism.
15:34:12 [Wayne]
steveR: Reverse color is so OS level.
15:35:00 [Wayne]
... so authors might just claim they are done.
15:35:11 [allanj]
steve: ability to change to a single foreground and a single background color
15:35:55 [allanj]
jim: steve this is what we have now: foreground and background to a single different foreground color and a single different background color
15:37:02 [allanj]
alastair: color is ok. spacing are good with minimum values. fonts are an issue. if a wide font...menus and such may break.
15:37:30 [allanj]
laura: internationalization is an issue with fonts.
15:37:54 [steverep]
q+ to throw another knuckle ball
15:38:17 [allanj]
alas: perhaps SC with color and spacing leave font family out.
15:38:27 [allanj]
wayne: likes Robust language
15:40:25 [allanj]
steve: ATM machines. in favor of more applicability (mechanism). prefers mechanism language.
15:40:44 [Wayne]
steveRep: More applicability and deal with confusion in the understanding. Who is responsible. What the colors and font are needs to be general.
15:43:16 [allanj]
wcag20 def mechanism
15:43:18 [allanj]
process or technique for achieving a result
15:43:19 [allanj]
Note 1: The mechanism may be explicitly provided in the content, or may be relied upon to be provided by either the platform or by user agents, including assistive technologies.
15:43:21 [allanj]
Note 2: The mechanism needs to meet all success criteria for the conformance level claimed.
15:43:30 [ScottM]
The problem with mobile is testing color is harder as you can’t do it on the device directly
15:44:05 [laura]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78#issuecomment-290087634
15:44:30 [laura]
Note 3: In markup languages the mechanism may include user style sheet or browser plugin provided by the user.
15:52:49 [allanj]
wayne: +1 to dropping mechanism and note
15:55:57 [allanj]
zakim, close item 1
15:55:57 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, allanj
15:56:07 [allanj]
ack s
15:56:07 [Zakim]
steverep, you wanted to throw another knuckle ball
15:56:11 [allanj]
zakim, close item 1
15:56:11 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Adapting Text...Add bullet to Adapting text to "increase spacing between columns", closed
15:56:14 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:56:14 [Zakim]
2. User Interface Contrast [from allanj]
15:56:54 [allanj]
open item 2
15:57:16 [laura]
Glenda’s email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Mar/0040.html
15:58:28 [Wayne]
Alastair: there is a question about level. In cases about buttons there are buttons borders. One pixel compared to small text. So that the lower level could be 3:1?
15:59:20 [allanj]
Jim: what do low vision folks think? is 3:1 ok?
15:59:39 [laura]
Glenda’s Failure examples: http://glendathegood.com/a11y/lvtf/submitbuttonbordernota11y.html
15:59:47 [steverep]
q+ to probably live with 3:1
16:00:49 [allanj]
ack s
16:00:49 [Zakim]
steverep, you wanted to probably live with 3:1
16:00:53 [Wayne]
Look at second one on the failure page. is the 3:1 sufficient.
16:02:00 [Wayne]
Marla: 3:1 is this about content or border?
16:05:57 [Wayne]
Jim: To me the UI control is about the border. Defining boundary between the control and it's background.
16:06:23 [Wayne]
Marla: Do we allow fill to substutite for border
16:07:08 [Wayne]
Jim: It does not say anything about a specific.
16:08:02 [allanj]
wayne: what about state change... hover or focus.
16:08:42 [laura]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:08:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/30-lvtf-minutes.html laura
16:09:02 [steverep]
q+ to ask why minimum border is not specified
16:09:20 [allanj]
jim: should be covered. will write glenda about state changes.
16:09:43 [Wayne]
steverep: Why a minimum border or fill is not part of the SC.
16:10:36 [allanj]
wayne: dotted border that is 1 px, is close enough to half pixel. I miss those all the time.
16:11:24 [Wayne]
Marla: I just tested the middle button. Using the Pacillo so it is 1.5:1. Is a fail.
16:11:27 [Wayne]
q+
16:11:38 [allanj]
ack s
16:11:38 [Zakim]
steverep, you wanted to ask why minimum border is not specified
16:11:46 [allanj]
ack w
16:12:24 [allanj]
wayne: redo glenda page. with ranges and survey group
16:13:39 [allanj]
send wayne example specs
16:14:18 [allanj]
thin, med, thick, range of colors, and fill with no border
16:15:22 [ScottM]
The other issue is the display itself which can have a big impact
16:15:33 [allanj]
wayne: not a lot of research on this.
16:15:41 [allanj]
close item 2
16:16:01 [allanj]
open item 3
16:16:04 [ScottM]
+1
16:16:24 [steverep]
Collaboration = good
16:16:31 [ScottM]
huge overlap between COGA and LV issues
16:17:06 [allanj]
jim: issues with meta attributes, etc.
16:17:20 [allanj]
laura: lots of pushback on meta
16:18:09 [allanj]
wayne: COGA wants hooks (meta info) in content to allow AT of others to modify
16:18:49 [allanj]
... working group (AG) doesn't understand aria-like need for other disabilities
16:19:31 [allanj]
wayne: Personalization is HUGE for all people.
16:20:31 [laura]
q+
16:20:32 [ScottM]
a cornerstone of the original HTML spec was layout flexibility
16:20:46 [allanj]
ack l
16:21:09 [allanj]
laura: personalization would be a good technique
16:23:32 [allanj]
jim will create Technique template.
16:24:50 [allanj]
action: Jim to set up a joint meeting with COGA
16:24:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-96 - Set up a joint meeting with coga [on Jim Allan - due 2017-04-06].
16:25:12 [ScottM]
that could work
16:26:36 [ScottM]
should we change the password?
16:28:43 [laura]
Bye all, Thanks.
16:28:50 [ScottM]
bye
16:30:09 [laura]
laura has left #lvtf
16:30:32 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/30-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
16:31:34 [allanj]
trackbot, end meeting
16:31:34 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:31:34 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Jim, Wayne, Scott, Shawn, Laura, Marla, AlastairC, JohnR, JohnRochford, steverep
16:31:42 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:31:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/30-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:31:43 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:31:43 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2017/03/30-lvtf-actions.rdf :
16:31:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jim to set up a joint meeting with COGA [1]
16:31:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/03/30-lvtf-irc#T16-24-50