IRC log of alreq on 2017-03-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:01:05 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #alreq
15:01:05 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:04:00 [behnam]
RRSAgent, please draft the minutes
15:04:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate behnam
15:04:04 [behnam]
RRSAgent, please set logs world-visible
15:04:25 [behnam]
Meeting: ALReq Weekly Meeting, 21 March 2017
15:04:44 [behnam]
agenda+ Status review of action items
15:04:53 [behnam]
agenda+ Review of GitHub issues and pull requests
15:53:05 [najib]
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15:59:56 [najib]
Hi Behnam
16:00:56 [behnam]
hi najib
16:01:51 [behnam]
Chair: behnam
16:01:54 [behnam]
16:02:01 [najib]
16:03:40 [r12a]
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16:07:00 [behnam]
16:10:07 [najib]
16:10:27 [najib]
16:10:39 [behnam]
present+ r12a
16:11:05 [behnam]
take up agendum 1
16:13:43 [Shervin]
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16:14:49 [Shervin]
ScribeNick: Shervin
16:15:18 [behnam]
Here's the draft:
16:15:58 [Shervin]
Behnam: Looking at the draft for vertical Arabic which Najib produced.
16:16:42 [behnam]
16:18:20 [Shervin]
Behnam: The draft is on an external link. If the link is stable we can add it to the issue so people can take a look at it.
16:19:35 [najib]
I'll put the text in Github wiki, and then get the link in the issue.
16:22:12 [Shervin]
najib: The draft is some use-cases with pictures for a start...
16:23:18 [Shervin]
...In section 1.1 of the draft, I tried to separate the use-cases.
16:23:19 [najib_]
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16:23:49 [r12a]
16:23:53 [Shervin]
...there is also a section stub for implementation notes. For now it's just a short text.
16:24:42 [behnam]
ack r12a
16:24:44 [Shervin]
r12a: Is this draft intended to be part of AlReq? or separate doc?
16:25:03 [Shervin]
najib: Yes. Section 4.3, I think.
16:25:33 [Shervin]
r12a: Some suggestion; no need to talk about CSS as it's tech-specific and doesn't belong in ALReq...
16:26:17 [Shervin]
...Secondly, for ALReq we need to be short and to the point. Third, my impression was that we're not talking about Chinese and Mongolian...
16:26:54 [Shervin]
...Fourth, margin-writing the way it's represented is not going to be useful for any implementation.
16:27:41 [behnam]
16:27:47 [Shervin]
... Finally, I completed my action item to write to Uyghur experts regarding vertical text. Haven't heard a response yet.
16:28:06 [Shervin]
Najib: There are other examples of margin writing that Khaled provided.
16:28:48 [Shervin]
... Margin-writing is obviously for handwritten text. The point was that the direction can be both top-to-bottom and bottom-to-top.
16:29:18 [Shervin]
r12a: There are content which are more important than vertical text to the document.
16:29:42 [Shervin]
... My recommendation is to have a short text section on this topic.
16:30:27 [Shervin]
behnam: Matters discussed here touched different parts of document layout; some can be special, historical use-cases...
16:30:42 [Shervin]
... this can be left out of the main document ...
16:31:19 [Shervin]
... On the other hand, the book titles, I don't think that it's anything special like any other language; you have a narrow box and put the text in there...
16:31:32 [r12a]
16:31:46 [behnam]
ack behnam
16:31:52 [Shervin]
... On a lower priority, we can get into the topic of vertical text (upward or downward).
16:32:00 [behnam]
ack r12a
16:32:10 [Shervin]
r12a: I'd welcome some information on upward text if it comes along.
16:32:38 [Shervin]
... The other interest is the behaviour of vertical text in table cells.
16:33:20 [Shervin]
behnam: Table issue is a good example and we have a section to get to it, I believe. We can address the topic there.
16:33:40 [Shervin]
... It's going to be a big challenge to put all the vertical-related info in one section.
16:34:40 [Shervin]
r12a: There is a question at hand is the correctness of CSS implementation;
16:34:50 [Shervin]
... If it's good to keep it and if there are issues to fix.
16:35:01 [Shervin]
... That's a relevant question for ALReq.
16:35:07 [Shervin]
16:35:39 [Shervin]
najib: I agree with Behnam that there are other places in the doc to talk about vertical text; e.g. section abou tables, etc.
16:36:23 [Shervin]
... There is also the issue of mixing RTL and LTR scripts in vertical table cells.
16:36:32 [Shervin]
... We may have something to discuss here.
16:37:17 [r12a]
16:37:27 [behnam]
ack Shervin
16:40:41 [behnam]
ack r12a
16:41:17 [Shervin]
r12a: At this stage, we don't have to worry too long where to put the text.
16:42:01 [Shervin]
r12a: One paragraph and two pictures might be a good start. If necessary we can expand to more.
16:44:14 [Shervin]
Shervin: Few points: 1. It's a special cases section, we need to keep it short; 2. margin-writing per se is not of interest for us in this topic. It should be seen as a historical precedence of Arabic written vertically; 3. I believe that the theater sign with stand-alone letters and vertical positioning doesn't belong here because it's a copy of a western tradition of marquee signs.
16:44:33 [Shervin]
behnam: What's the issue or question for CSS vertical text?
16:44:54 [Shervin]
r12a: Some of the features are at risk for implementation...
16:45:21 [Shervin]
... There is also a question that originally came from this group regarding text running upwards or downwards.
16:45:40 [Shervin]
behnam: The drafting needs to focus on collecting evidence.
16:46:21 [Shervin]
r12a: The conclusion could be as simple as "Arabic runs upwards or downwards in these situations, etc."
16:46:40 [Shervin]
... This could be written very briefly and put in the document.
16:48:05 [Shervin]
behnam: Two main topic; vertical upright (mixed with CJK) and upward/downward.
16:48:20 [Shervin]
r12a: Yes. We should avoid technology terms discussing these.
16:49:13 [Shervin]
najib: Let's continue the discussion in the issue to see if we agree where to put this.
16:49:39 [Shervin]
16:49:54 [behnam]
ack Shervin
16:53:21 [Shervin]
Shervin: Could we just write what we already know in few lines for now?
16:54:27 [Shervin]
16:57:54 [Shervin]
najib: We could have one or two paragraphs to summarize what we know. Then we can always revisit.
16:58:00 [Shervin]
16:59:03 [behnam]
close ACTION-89
16:59:03 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-89.
16:59:31 [Shervin]
behnam: ACTION-88 is about Uyghur....
16:59:35 [behnam]
close ACTION-88
16:59:35 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-88.
16:59:45 [Shervin]
r12a: Could be closed. No response yet. I will forward if I get any.
16:59:50 [behnam]
Zakim, what action items?
16:59:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, behnam.
16:59:58 [behnam]
RRSAgent, what action items?
16:59:58 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
17:01:25 [behnam]
next agendum
17:01:29 [behnam]
17:01:32 [behnam]
ack Shervin
17:01:34 [behnam]
next agendum
17:01:44 [behnam]
17:01:59 [behnam]
17:03:51 [behnam]
17:03:57 [behnam]
Zakim, who is here?
17:03:57 [Zakim]
Present: behnam, najib, r12a
17:03:59 [Zakim]
On IRC I see najib, Shervin, r12a, RRSAgent, Zakim, behnam, trackbot
17:04:05 [Shervin]
17:04:16 [Shervin]
Zakim, who is here?
17:04:16 [Zakim]
Present: behnam, najib, r12a, Shervin
17:04:18 [Zakim]
On IRC I see najib, Shervin, r12a, RRSAgent, Zakim, behnam, trackbot
17:04:22 [Shervin]
17:06:30 [Shervin]
Shervin: Recommend to close Issue 49; there is a merge by Mostafa with the fixes and fixes reported to CLDR is due for CLDR 31 release...
17:06:46 [Shervin]
... This means that we get these changes next time that we update our character tables.
17:06:58 [Shervin]
17:08:27 [Shervin]
behnam: Issue number 9 and issue 101...
17:08:31 [behnam]
17:09:06 [Shervin]
najib: Issue 9 could be closed.
17:09:32 [behnam]
17:11:18 [behnam]
17:11:43 [Shervin]
behnam: issue 101 could remain open until the text is merge into the doc.
17:11:53 [Shervin]
17:12:15 [Shervin]
behnam: Should we keep Unicode citations in a different section?
17:12:27 [behnam]
17:13:07 [Shervin]
r12a: I usually avoid the usual W3C of citation. I usually prefer to link directly from the document. It's true that with Unicode spec there are updates.
17:13:14 [Shervin]
...but there are links for latest version.
17:14:23 [Shervin]
r12a: I would personally like to keep the references in the text.
17:14:33 [behnam]
17:14:45 [Shervin]
...In future we can move those in a separate section.
17:15:12 [Shervin]
...I'd say to leave it as is and just use the "latest" version URL.
17:15:46 [Shervin]
...A link to have a link to Unicode from a reference and citation section.
17:17:32 [behnam]
ack Shervin
17:31:45 [r12a]
17:33:29 [behnam]
ack r12a
17:33:38 [r12a]
Unicode Standard Annex #9, Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm [UBA]
17:39:12 [najib]
najib has left #alreq
17:39:16 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:39:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate r12a
17:39:21 [r12a]
rrsagent, make log public
17:39:24 [behnam]
Created to create a new appendix for external references
17:39:35 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:39:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate r12a
17:39:35 [behnam]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:39:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate behnam
17:48:21 [behnam]
regret+ mostafa
17:48:30 [behnam]
rrsagent, publish minutes
17:48:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate behnam
17:48:43 [behnam]
regrets+ mostafa
17:48:52 [behnam]
s/regret+ mostafa//
17:48:55 [behnam]
rrsagent, publish minutes
17:48:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate behnam