15:31:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ag
15:31:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/03/16-ag-irc
15:31:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:31:13 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ag
15:31:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:31:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:31:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:31:16 <trackbot> Date: 16 March 2017
15:31:49 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #ag
15:32:07 <AWK> TOPIC: Target size (first half - 30 min)
15:32:09 <AWK> +AWK
15:32:14 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
15:32:17 <Rachael> present+ Rachael
15:32:17 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
15:32:18 <AWK> agenda+ personalization
15:32:28 <Mike_Pluke> What is the Webex meeting ID?
15:32:30 <alastairc> present+ alastairc
15:32:32 <JF> JF has joined #ag
15:32:44 <JF> Present+ JF
15:32:47 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #ag
15:32:50 <Mike_Pluke> present+ Mike_Pluke
15:33:02 <MichaelC> present+
15:34:35 <Kathy> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/60
15:34:47 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #ag
15:35:05 <jasonjgw> present+
15:35:13 <laura> present+ Laura
15:35:19 <kirkwood> present+
15:35:28 <Glenda> present+ Glenda
15:35:43 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/60#issuecomment-286490153
15:36:30 <AllanJ> present+ Jim
15:36:44 <steverep_> steverep_ has joined #ag
15:36:51 <steverep_> present+steverep
15:37:04 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #ag
15:37:35 <AWK> Kathy: big issue right now seems to be inline links
15:37:56 <Pietro> Pietro has joined #ag
15:37:56 <AWK> "For targets within content which are considered essential, at least one of the following is true "
15:38:22 <AWK> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/60#issuecomment-286229209
15:38:31 <Pietro> Present+ Pietro
15:39:10 <JF> Q+
15:39:11 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #ag
15:40:11 <alastairc> Main concern: pointer isn't an attribute of the content, but the user's setup / user-agent. That means it is 44px for any public facing site.
15:40:11 <AWK> ack j
15:40:18 <Wayne> q+
15:40:53 <AWK> JF: could we exclude text-based links if they are a problem?
15:41:03 <kirkwood> +1 to JF
15:41:49 <AWK> Kathy: many users may have problems with using zoom function to get the links larger
15:42:32 <jamesn> q+
15:44:04 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #ag
15:44:31 <Detlev> missing the password for Webex...
15:44:41 <alastairc> Question: Don't the mobile devices have heuristics when people tap screens to help you hit small targets? Not sure how much that helps when people have mobility impairments?
15:44:42 <Kim> Kim has joined #ag
15:45:18 <JF> Q+
15:45:26 <AWK> ack w
15:45:29 <AWK> ack jam
15:45:40 <Detlev> I read that but can't recall that from the main call...
15:46:47 <patrick_h_lauke_> patrick_h_lauke_ has joined #ag
15:46:51 <patrick_h_lauke_> q+
15:47:33 <AWK> ack pa
15:47:45 <kirkwood> q+
15:47:54 <JF> ack JF
15:48:04 <Detlev> present+ Detlev
15:49:01 <Detlev> thanks Alastair!
15:49:10 <jamesn> present+ JamesNurthen
15:49:15 <jamesn> q+
15:49:37 <Kim> present+ Kim
15:50:10 <JF> Q+ to ask How do evaluators know what the end user is using in terms of "pointer" input? (I have a pen with a rubberized tip which I use on my cell phone, so does the pointer input size there need to be 44 X 44 or 22 X 22?)
15:52:11 <AWK> Also the high contrast also includes images of text, and high contrast doesn't deal with that
15:53:42 <Jatin> Jatin has joined #ag
15:54:05 <AWK> ack kirkw
15:54:15 <KimD> KimD has joined #ag
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15:55:09 <gowerm> present+ MikeGower
15:55:09 <Wayne> q+
15:55:21 <KimD> Present_
15:55:28 <KimD> Present+
15:55:34 <patrick_h_lauke_> q-
15:57:16 <AWK> ack jamesn
15:57:47 <Rachael> q+
15:58:05 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/16-ag-minutes.html laura
15:58:55 <Kim> q+
15:59:00 <Detlev> q+
15:59:31 <AWK> ack jf
15:59:31 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask How do evaluators know what the end user is using in terms of "pointer" input? (I have a pen with a rubberized tip which I use on my cell phone, so does the
15:59:34 <Zakim> ... pointer input size there need to be 44 X 44 or 22 X 22?)
15:59:53 <Detlev> scribe?
16:00:25 <Wayne> q-
16:00:33 <JF> "The size of the target in relation to the visible display at the default viewport size is at least:   - 44px by 44px for pointer inputs with coarse pointing accuracy (such as a touchscreen)    - 22px by 22px for pointer inputs with fine pointing accuracy (such as a mouse, trackpad or stylus)"
16:01:50 <patrick_h_lauke_> JF https://drafts.csswg.org/mediaqueries-4/#mf-interaction to start
16:02:09 <patrick_h_lauke_> rubberised stylus will act to the tablet/phone as a finger
16:02:11 <Kathy> The size of the target in relation to the visible display at the default viewport size is at least 44px by 44px for pointer inputs where px is a CSS pixel when the page is using the device ideal viewport.
16:02:14 <patrick_h_lauke_> unless it's a dedicated stylus
16:02:20 <AWK> ack ra
16:02:21 <gowerm> q+
16:04:13 <AWK> ack kim
16:05:52 <AWK> zakim, close the queue
16:05:52 <Zakim> ok, AWK, the speaker queue is closed
16:06:02 <AWK> ack detlev
16:07:31 <patrick_h_lauke_> if we say that one dimension can be half of the other...but at the same time we say that users have difficulty accurately hitting a target that is not X wide, wide do we then think they can hit a target that is half of X in the other direction?
16:07:38 <AWK> ack gower
16:08:12 <mhakkinen> mhakkinen has joined #ag
16:08:21 <patrick_h_lauke_> agree
16:08:33 <laura> 44 px = 2.750em right?
16:08:53 <patrick_h_lauke_> laura yes
16:09:22 <AWK> Zakim, take up next item
16:09:22 <Zakim> agendum 1. "personalization" taken up [from AWK]
16:09:43 <AWK> Lisa: 2 reasons investing in this area
16:10:08 <AWK> with Cognitive, there are many "best" versions
16:13:11 <AWK> q+
16:14:07 <AWK> Personalization: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/6
16:14:34 <jamesn> q+
16:14:53 <jamesn> q-
16:15:25 <AWK> ack awk
16:15:48 <JF> Q+
16:15:55 <jamesn> q+
16:16:10 <alastairc> yep, need the 'how': How does a site implement this now (or v soon).
16:16:29 <AWK> ack jf
16:17:12 <AWK> JF asks about "contextual information" definition. Only achievable with ARIA?
16:17:32 <AWK> Lisa: Can be implemented with RDF-a today
16:17:43 <AWK> ... COGA work in ARIA will make this simpler
16:17:54 <AWK> JF: but that ARIA work is still in draft
16:18:19 <Wayne> q+
16:18:46 <AWK> Lisa: Question - when does a technology need to be ready to allow us to include it?
16:19:06 <JF> <title> Step 2 of a 5 step process</title> isw indeed machine-readable
16:19:21 <gowerm> q+
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16:22:03 <AWK> ack jam
16:24:25 <AWK> ack waynenope
16:24:33 <AWK> ack wayn
16:25:40 <JF> Q+ "Contextual information and author settable properties of regions, critical features and important information are programmatically determinable so that personalization is available."
16:25:57 <Mike_Pluke> +1
16:26:05 <JF> Q+ to ask about "Contextual information and author settable properties of regions, critical features and important information are programmatically determinable so that personalization is available."
16:26:08 <AWK> ack gower
16:28:06 <mhakkinen> +1 to first point of gowerm
16:28:19 <Wayne> q+
16:31:19 <AWK> ack JF
16:31:19 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask about "Contextual information and author settable properties of regions, critical features and important information are programmatically determinable so that
16:31:22 <Zakim> ... personalization is available."
16:34:30 <gowerm> COGA is not the only thing that can benefit from personalization, but at the moment, it is the only thing in the spec
16:34:41 <alastairc> Lisa, would be good to update the link to "Semantics for adaptive interfaces" on the issue 6 page, currently 404.
16:34:50 <AWK> ack wa
16:36:29 <JF> 2 independent implementations
16:37:06 <gowerm> WAYNE: how do you not think this is more effort?
16:37:07 <gowerm> Plain language: Allow the user to use plain language and provide clear and simple language in all content so that all of the following are true
16:37:09 <gowerm> "...If the text is not literal, then the tester must confirm that personalization and an easy user setting enables it to be replaced, such that all meaning is retained. "
16:37:37 <jamesn> ARIA doesn't have drag and drop
16:38:03 <Wayne> With well defined programming language additions, the author does not have to provide a mechanism. The AT can do that.
16:38:09 <JF> +1 to JamesN re: ARIA does not have D&D
16:38:50 <gowerm> No, the author has to rewrite the entire content for simplification
16:39:13 <laura> bye
16:39:16 <Wayne> Mike let's talk of line
16:39:17 <AWK> trackbot, end meeting
16:39:17 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:39:17 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Kathy, Rachael, marcjohlic, alastairc, JF, Mike_Pluke, MichaelC, jasonjgw, Laura, kirkwood, Glenda, Jim, steverep, Pietro, Detlev,
16:39:20 <Zakim> ... JamesNurthen, Kim, MikeGower, KimD
16:39:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:39:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/16-ag-minutes.html trackbot
16:39:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:39:26 <RRSAgent> I see no action items