17:32:44 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:32:44 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/03/09-aria-irc 17:32:46 RRSAgent, make logs world 17:32:49 Zakim, this will be 17:32:49 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 17:32:49 Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference 17:32:49 Date: 09 March 2017 17:32:57 chair: Joanmarie_Diggs 17:33:06 RRSAgent, make log public 17:33:13 agenda? 17:34:16 agenda- 3 17:34:21 agenda? 17:34:32 agenda+ Testable statements - Progress update 17:34:47 agenda: be done 17:34:52 agenda? 17:35:03 agenda- 4 17:35:06 agenda: be done 17:35:25 agenda: this 17:35:32 agenda+ Testable statements - Progress update 17:35:54 agenda+ ATTA progress updates 17:36:04 agenda+ Getting started on manual testing (mainly for Windows) 17:36:13 agenda+ DPub Roles 2.0 as joint deliverable? 17:36:23 agenda: be done 17:36:28 agenda? 17:36:44 Regrets: James_Nurthen, Matt_King, Michael_Cooper 17:37:48 clear agenda 17:37:57 agenda? 17:38:12 agenda+ Testable statements - Progress update 17:38:23 agenda+ ATTA progress updates 17:38:30 agenda+ Getting started on manual testing (mainly for Windows) 17:38:41 agenda+ DPub Roles 2.0 as joint deliverable? 17:39:01 agenda: be done 17:39:06 agenda 17:39:10 agenda? 17:39:44 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:39:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/09-aria-minutes.html joanie 17:40:29 s/clear agenda/ 17:40:39 s/agenda// 17:40:51 s/agenda: be done//g 17:40:55 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:40:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/09-aria-minutes.html joanie 17:41:35 s/agenda:this// 17:41:44 s/?// 17:41:50 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:41:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/09-aria-minutes.html joanie 17:43:08 s/agenda: this// 17:43:14 s/agenda// 17:43:19 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:43:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/09-aria-minutes.html joanie 17:49:59 clown has joined #aria 17:56:06 yes please 17:56:20 Regrets+ ShaneM 17:56:50 present+ Joanmarie_Diggs 18:01:14 clown has joined #aria 18:01:16 jamesn has joined #aria 18:04:51 present+ Joseph_Scheuhamer 18:05:02 present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer 18:05:47 present- Joseph_Scheuhamer 18:06:39 present+ 18:06:54 JF has joined #aria 18:07:03 Present + JF 18:08:09 Zakim, take up item 1 18:08:09 agendum 1. "Testable statements - Progress update" taken up [from joanie] 18:08:20 JasonDuan has joined #aria 18:08:28 scribe: JF 18:08:37 zakim, who is here? 18:08:37 Present: Joanmarie_Diggs, Stefan, MichielBijl, janina, Joseph_Scheuhammer, jongund 18:08:40 On IRC I see JasonDuan, JF, jamesn, clown, RRSAgent, MichaelC, richardschwerdtfeger, joanie, Zakim, janina, slightlyoff, MichielBijl, ShaneM, trackbot, yatil, AmeliaBR, timeless, 18:08:40 ... Josh_Soref, JonathanNeal_ 18:08:51 https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements 18:09:27 clown: edited table, work is progressing 18:09:36 RS: when do you think the tests will be completed? 18:09:55 Stefan: hopefully next week 18:10:13 JB: there are still about 130 left to do 18:10:24 RS: we need more help - anyone else able to assist? 18:10:25 s/JB/JD/ 18:10:50 RS: we are running late: we need these test examples done. We need more help 18:11:18 s/clown: edited table, work is progressing/stefan: edited table, work is progressing/ 18:11:37 jongund has joined #aria 18:11:47 present+ jongund 18:12:13 RS: asking if BG can take on some test. 18:12:25 BG: not clear on how to deliver. Is there a how-to guide? 18:12:47 https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements 18:13:51 RS: for every testable state, we are creating an example. Very basic, doesn't need CSS (etc.) - just expected results 18:14:26 https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#Introduction 18:14:38 then there is a table for each platform, for a given element 18:14:45 that needs to be able to prove the assertion 18:14:58 we have an element with an id that is affected, and then for each platform what the mappiings are 18:15:29 [rich shows an example] 18:15:31 if given 18:15:32
18:15:33 OK 18:15:33
18:15:50 then for the element of id test expose the button role but do not expose aria-haspopup 18:16:28 find associated element, then get the platform APIs and then report results 18:16:49 for any of the testable statements, we should be able to determine success or failure failryl easily 18:17:02 s/failryl /fairly 18:17:27 [Rich assigning some tests to Brian G.] 18:18:24 JB: wonders if we should also look at aria-separator and ... 18:18:52 https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#aria-expanded 18:19:25 JB: link to section of testable statements - aria-expanded 18:19:33 there are 3 test for seperator 18:19:59 there is a question regarding separator 18:20:11 the defualt for aria-expanded is undefined, thus not mapped 18:20:38 as a dev, this is complex - I don't want the mappings to have too much info 18:20:55 what it says in the core AAM and what actual tech is delivering, is what we need to test for 18:21:13 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2017Mar/0017.html 18:21:29 Rich feels however that user-agents should do it 18:21:54 RS: dealing with W3C site issues - won't allow to assign Brian G. his tasks 18:22:16 RS: I posted something to the list] 18:22:41 JB: see the link I posted - it is Rich's post (which we are discussing now) 18:23:11 RS: if we start down the path where somebody applies inaapropriate attribute to a role 18:23:26 and then we ask the browsers to not map it... that will be very expensive to the browsers 18:23:34 as they will then need to ask if it is accurate 18:23:38 and some may not be able to do it 18:24:04 if you apply an attribute to a given element thta is incorrect, many tools flag the errors 18:24:37 RS: Joanie is arguing that if we apply this... if we don't support separator expanded 18:24:50 Joanie wants to check to see if it is correct or not, and then we catch it 18:25:06 RS: but that then means that the user-agents will need to test for that 18:25:23 understand that it was previously supported, and that may make this an edge case 18:25:38 but if we start down this road, there is a concern that we'll get puch-back from the browsers 18:26:19 s/puch-back/push-back 18:26:46 there is a potential that this will set us back (re: CR and our larger timeline) 18:27:33 if we go to CR, we need a high-level confidence that browser vendors will implement all of this. This could cause the core AAM from being sent back -aria is dependant onthat 18:28:13 JB: don't we have to test for all normative changes? 18:28:32 s/JB/JD/g 18:28:42 RS: yes. but we are talkng about a large change - we will be asking browser vendors to do a lot 18:28:51 we may get away with this once, but... 18:29:38 RS: we seem to be asking the browsers to become both test and repair tools 18:30:56 JD: largest concern is the CR status - if a change is normative, we have to test it (point finale) 18:31:21 RS: my suggestion is to move the tests to the core AAM section of the test harness 18:31:34 and find out quickly (and avoid scope creep !!!!) 18:31:54 if Joanie can get Alex @ Moz to make the change - then great 18:32:06 but if Moz isn't prepared to do so, that we yank it 18:32:12 all it says is that it is not supported 18:32:41 Clown: if somebody puts in something that is "illegal" it will likely be exposed int he Accessibility tree, but that's it 18:32:49 RS: I believe that to be true as well 18:32:57 Clown: but Joanie still has a point 18:33:15 RS: agreed, but it may set a bad precedent, may create major push-bacjk 18:33:48 however, if we've removed it - we should put the suppressionpart under the core AAM. The author tools and the testing tools shold get it 18:34:36 JD: will need to review more code 18:35:22 however, I found an example (in Webkit) methods that say "is this really supported" on a specific role. Not sure about Gecko however 18:35:31 RS: Gecko allows a lot of stuff to be put on a lot of things 18:35:52 JD: ORCA has a ton of stuff that "ignores" things from Gecko 18:36:08 RS: so, group think? 18:37:05 s/ORCA/Orca/ 18:37:12 JF: I hear, pursue this as far as possible, but be prepared to drop it if it impacts the ARIA 1.1 timeline 18:37:20 JD: I will live with whatever the group wants 18:37:48 RS: so, do we put this into the core AAM testable statements... Joanie will track this down fairly quickly 18:37:57 any objections to parking this at AAM Core? 18:38:00 OK with me 18:38:08 hearing general consensus 18:38:19 RS: so it's still in until it's out :) 18:38:32 agenda? 18:38:58 RS: passes around the volunteers search (again) 18:39:29 jamesn has joined #aria 18:40:49 [discussion around getting @clown more time to help here] 18:41:14 RS: will try and gather up some more help off-line 18:41:52 agenda? 18:42:02 zakim, take up item 2 18:42:02 agendum 2. "ATTA progress updates" taken up [from joanie] 18:42:51 JG: made a lot of progress at CSUN - some good meetings with info for other platforms APIs 18:43:16 JG: have 2 students helping who seem to be able to run the test platform 18:43:28 starting a process of adding iAccessible 2 support 18:43:45 also trying to take joaine's code and modifying that to leaverage it 18:43:58 hoping to connect with Joanie and students for a "tour" 18:44:16 JD: sure, but it may be more complex than just replacing one thing with another 18:44:33 JG: don't think it will be that easy - realistic expectations, but want to better understand what is happening 18:44:41 JD: a lot has changed 18:44:49 JG: OK, well... 18:45:52 [Joanie and JG talking about testing needs and emergent work] 18:46:21 JD: also chatted with Shane M last week, and he offered some suggestions 18:46:53 JD: no matter what, don't think her code will be that re-usable by Jon 18:47:09 JG: still would like to do a deeper dive and have those chats 18:47:47 JG: hopeful to get stuff built sooner than later, but was hoping to leaverage more of Joanie's code than it now appears 18:48:40 JD: have been actively working on her core platforms APIs - hope to show progress next week 18:49:09 zakim, next item 18:49:09 agendum 1. "Testable statements - Progress update" taken up [from joanie] 18:49:18 zakim, close item 1 18:49:18 agendum 1, Testable statements - Progress update, closed 18:49:19 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:49:19 3. Getting started on manual testing (mainly for Windows) [from joanie] 18:49:27 zzakim, take up next item 18:49:45 zakim, take up next item 18:49:45 agendum 3. "Getting started on manual testing (mainly for Windows)" taken up [from joanie] 18:50:23 JD: MSFT has volunteered tester help, but no news on ATIA... may need volunteers for windows testing 18:50:47 JG: there may be students that ccould help with taht - may not be in a good timeframe however 18:51:01 s/ATIA/ATTA 18:51:23 JD: I think I may be able to reuse a lot of my code... starting to already fill in the blank 18:51:35 *HOPE* to be able to do it, but cannot promise 18:51:59 JG: we have people who can do manual testing (on Edge) 18:52:16 JG: we've done that in the past 18:52:28 RS: that may be OK for UIA 18:52:37 https://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/aviewer/ 18:52:47 accprobe has not been updated for IA2 18:52:57 S. FAulkner looking at updating aViewer 18:53:11 http://pfiddlesoft.com/uibrowser/index.html 18:53:15 there is another tool for the mac platform too 18:53:16 for mac 18:53:40 Clown: for safari? what does it mean "for mac"? 18:53:52 RS: not sure - investigating 18:54:47 RS: cannot do any manual testing until computer is re-installed locally 18:55:11 JD: will aViewer be the testing tool for UIA? 18:55:22 RS: not sure yet 18:55:33 The Accessibility Viewer (aViewer) is an inspection tool for Windows that displays the accessibility API information (MSAA, IAccessible2, UI Automation, ARIA, HTML DOM) exposed by web browsers to the operating system, and thus to any assistive technology (AT) such as screenreaders. 18:56:30 JD: this sorta looks like... if Jon has volunteers who could do UIA testing could start using this tool 18:56:43 https://github.com/ThePacielloGroup/aviewer 18:56:54 [discussion if it is a tool that is open source] 18:57:04 JG: thinks it is a wrap-around some Java thing 18:57:31 looked at this previously, and it is a compiled binary - there is no code to build upon 18:58:33 JG: if I knew more about IA2, I'd be able to better forecast a timeline 18:58:57 best i can say is taht I have a lot of folks lining up to offer help, so full speed ahead into the unknown 18:59:36 RS: if aViewer is updated and adequate, do we start manual testing ASAP? 18:59:52 RS: swome W3 pressure on "when will we be done?" 19:00:17 JG: hopefully will be better informed by next week. Will lean on jaonie for some direction and assistance 19:00:32 s/jaonie /Joanie 19:02:36 RRSAgent, make logs public 19:02:53 [quick discussion around SVG accessibility] 19:04:17 RS: there are concerns over the SVG WG at W3C... need to follow up there 19:04:53 trackbot, end meeting 19:04:53 Zakim, list attendees 19:04:53 As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Stefan, MichielBijl, janina, Joseph_Scheuhammer, jongund, Joseph_Scheuhamer 19:05:01 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 19:05:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/09-aria-minutes.html trackbot 19:05:02 RRSAgent, bye 19:05:02 I see no action items