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13:53:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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13:53:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:53:35 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:53:36 <trackbot> Meeting: XForms Users Community Group Teleconference
13:53:36 <trackbot> Date: 01 March 2017
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13:55:57 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2017Mar/0002
13:56:04 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2017Mar/0002
13:56:12 <Steven> Chair: Steven
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14:02:30 <Steven> Present: Alain, Erik, Philip, Steven
14:02:41 <Steven> Topic: Summertime
14:02:41 <Steven> [USA: 12 March; Europe: 26 March; so for two weeks call is 1 hour earlier
14:02:41 <Steven> in Europe]
14:03:07 <Steven> Topic: XML London
14:03:07 <Steven> http://xmllondon.com/
14:03:21 <Steven> Steven: CFP, deadline is the end of this month
14:03:47 <Steven> Topic: References and dependencies/Dynamic dependencies
14:03:47 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2017Feb/0023.html
14:04:09 <Steven> Steven: Any feedback, or are you happy?
14:04:17 <Steven> Philip: Still to do.
14:04:52 <Steven> Steven: It's quite short, by merging sections it has comperssed quite a lot.
14:05:03 <Steven> Topic: MIPS as part of dependency graph
14:05:03 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2017Mar/0000.html
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14:05:55 <Steven> Steven: Isn't this already covered?
14:06:09 <Steven> Erik: I think we say something about the use of these cross-MIP functions
14:06:17 <Steven> ... let me see if I can find it.
14:07:09 <ebruchez> https://www.w3.org/community/xformsusers/wiki/XPath_Expressions_Module#The_valid.28.29_Function
14:08:16 <Steven> Erik: I think the second example in my mail wouldn't work at present
14:08:31 <Steven> ... but it would if recalculate and validate were combined
14:08:35 <Steven> Steeven: I see.
14:09:18 <Steven> s/ee/
14:09:43 <Steven> Steven: To what extent is the way we specify the processing in these distinct steps essential?
14:10:02 <Steven> ... As I mentioned last week, there are ways of combining rebuild and recalculate
14:10:14 <Steven> ... and you are suggesting ways to combine recalculate and revalidate
14:10:57 <Steven> Erik: We are a bit too prescriptive in the specification
14:11:36 <Steven> ... though the cross-MIP functions make it harder
14:13:45 <Steven> Steven: I moved a line about being able to optimise as long as the result is the same (a buit redundant really) from refresh to the top of the model processing:
14:13:47 <Steven> "Although some processes in this specification are described as if all expressions in a model or the user interface are re-evaluated every time there is a change, implementations are of course at liberty to optimize this, as long as the result is the same."
14:14:08 <Steven> https://www.w3.org/community/xformsusers/wiki/XForms_2.0#Dependencies
14:16:33 <Steven> Steven: So my question is, to what extent is it essential that we are prescriptive about the RRRR steps.
14:17:47 <Steven> Erik: Is there anything that prevents us from doing it in a different way?
14:19:45 <Steven> ... the functions could create a case where you get a different result depending on whether you do them as four steps rather than less.
14:20:24 <Steven> ... I can see why it was written how it was.
14:29:40 <Steven> Steven: What I want to avoid is that we prevent an implementation doing the best thing, by using wording in the spec that requires them to do something else.
14:31:17 <Steven> ... there's no reason why a really good dependency algorithm couldn't do RRRR in one go.
14:31:31 <Steven> Erik: Refresh may need to be separate.
14:35:07 <Steven> Steven: So what do we do with the RRR actions? What do we specify that they do in the case an implementation with a monolithic dependency algorithm?
14:35:17 <Steven> Erik: We say that the three are the same.
14:36:04 <Steven> Steven: So we say that <revalidate/> does *at least* a revalidation? That sounds good.
14:36:39 <Steven> Topic: Serialization as multipart/related
14:36:39 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2017Feb/0022.html
14:36:54 <Steven> Steven: I haven't worked on this this week.
14:37:04 <Steven> ... so let's keep it on the agenda.
14:37:26 <Steven> Topic: Output to the user
14:37:26 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2017Feb/0026.html
14:38:53 <Steven> Steven: I'm not objecting to <dialog/> pre se, just that it isn't very well integrated into the whole
14:38:59 <Steven> s/pre/per/
14:39:33 <ebruchez> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2017Mar/0001.html
14:39:53 <Steven> Steven: We add a lot of functionality in dialog that is special just for that element, and I would prefer to see a more integrated whole.
14:42:36 <Steven> Erik: Let's think a little bit more about it.
14:42:41 <Steven> Steven: Very good.
14:42:58 <Steven> Topic: AOB
14:43:07 <Steven> [None]
14:43:31 <Steven> [Adjourn]
14:43:37 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:43:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/01-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:20:48 <Steven> s/a buit/a bit/
15:21:07 <Steven> s/comperssed/compressed/
15:22:05 <Steven> s/Steeven: I s/Steven: I see/
15:23:07 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:23:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/01-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:24:26 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to change definition of RRR actions to say that they do *at least* R
15:24:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2112 - Change definition of rrr actions to say that they do *at least* r [on Steven Pemberton - due 2017-03-08].
15:24:34 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:24:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/01-forms-minutes.html Steven
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