16:23:07 RRSAgent has joined #dpub 16:23:07 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/02/27-dpub-irc 16:23:09 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:23:09 Zakim has joined #dpub 16:23:11 Zakim, this will be dpub 16:23:11 ok, trackbot 16:23:12 Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference 16:23:12 Date: 27 February 2017 16:23:15 Chair: Garth 16:23:32 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2017Feb/0044.html 16:23:48 ivan has changed the topic to: agenda for 2017-02-27: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2017Feb/0044.html 16:23:56 Regrets: Nick 16:47:42 rdeltour has joined #dpub 16:56:32 Rick_Johnson has joined #dpub 16:56:40 present+ RIck_Johnson 16:57:08 leonardr has joined #dpub 16:57:27 present+ Leonard 16:57:36 Avneesh has joined #dpub 16:58:05 present+ Avneesh 16:58:28 Present+ 16:58:43 HeatherF has joined #dpub 16:59:16 Vlad has joined #dpub 16:59:23 BillMcCoy has joined #dpub 16:59:51 leonardr_ has joined #dpub 17:00:01 present+ dauwhe 17:00:08 present+ Karen 17:00:10 laudrain has joined #dpub 17:00:47 present+ 17:01:02 Garth has joined #dpub 17:01:06 cmaden2 has joined #dpub 17:01:14 present+ 17:01:45 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub 17:01:58 present+ Bill_Kasdorf 17:02:03 present+ Chris_Maden 17:02:22 pkra has joined #dpub 17:02:23 clapierre1 has joined #DPUB 17:02:37 present+ Peter Krautzberger 17:02:55 scribenick: Karen 17:02:57 *hides in the shadows* 17:03:01 present+ 17:03:13 clapierre has joined #DPUB 17:03:13 present+ 17:03:17 Garth: we look to have a critical mass 17:03:23 present+ 17:03:27 …Last Monday was a holiday in the states, so maybe that helped 17:03:31 …Minutes are in the agenda 17:03:35 …they looked ok to me 17:03:40 …any objections to minute approval? 17:03:41 q? 17:03:51 …Silence being consent, let's note that they minutes are approved 17:04:03 …Looking at irc, I'll call out some of the new-comers we are expecting 17:04:16 …Jonathan Hevenstone from Atypon/Wiley membership 17:04:25 …hope he is here and will be contributing shortly 17:04:28 present+ Deborah_Kaplan 17:04:29 …and Nick Brown from Ingram 17:04:35 Nick: yes, I am here 17:04:44 Garth: want to give us a brief introduction 17:04:56 Nick: I work with Ingram, specifically Vital Source 17:05:02 …work on our ereader applications 17:05:11 …we are huge proponents of EPUB 17:05:18 …work closely with Rick Johnson whom you know 17:05:23 Garth: welcome aboard 17:05:29 …And @ with Pearson 17:05:34 …she joined and sent regrets 17:05:50 Bill_Kasdorf: Quick comment on Jonathan 17:05:50 q? 17:05:59 …his company Atypon was acquired by Wiley 17:06:04 Jonathan: I just joined 17:06:11 …is there a question about the involvement we will have? 17:06:24 Garth: you don't have to divulge secrets; just give us an introduction about you 17:06:35 Jonathan: I was involved in IDPF when we were developing the first EPUB spec 17:06:44 …working with Publishing Dementions, later acquired by Jouve 17:06:47 nickbrown has joined #dpub 17:06:53 …Atypon is a tech company acquired by Wiley in October 17:06:55 …we host about 17:07:01 …30 percent of world's journal articles 17:07:09 …in terms of current front list 17:07:14 …and will grow to 40 percent with Wiley 17:07:15 brady_duga has joined #dpub 17:07:19 david_stroup has joined #dpub 17:07:23 …online hosting, content development and monetization 17:07:29 present+ duga 17:07:29 q? 17:07:29 …Some publishers have EPUB to download 17:07:35 …we don't provide solutions for viewing them 17:07:52 …we are launching a new in-browser, Readium based reader, to deliver journal articles in that format 17:08:01 …address light-way copyright and annotation 17:08:05 Garth: Welcome back into the fold 17:08:07 Present+ Jonathan 17:08:09 Jonathan: thanks, this is fun 17:08:14 zakim, who is here? 17:08:14 Present: RIck_Johnson, Leonard, Avneesh, ivan, dauwhe, Karen, laudrain, rdeltour, Bill_Kasdorf, Chris_Maden, Peter, Krautzberger, Vlad, Bert, astearns, Deborah_Kaplan, duga, 17:08:18 ... Jonathan 17:08:18 On IRC I see david_stroup, brady_duga, nickbrown, clapierre, pkra, Bill_Kasdorf, cmaden2, Garth, laudrain, Leonard, BillMcCoy, Vlad, HeatherF, Avneesh, Rick_Johnson, rdeltour, 17:08:18 ... Zakim, RRSAgent, dkaplan3, Karen, chaals, ivan, dauwhe, liam, astearns, plinss, Bert, trackbot, JakeA, bigbluehat, iank_ 17:08:27 Present+ Nick_Brown 17:08:39 Garth: I'll give Carley from Pearson a chance to say high; but she sent regrets 17:08:48 Present+ BillMcCoy 17:08:51 …I believe Bill McCoy is on the call to give us an update on the PBG 17:09:03 BillMcCoy: The Publishing Business Group is formed 17:09:14 https://www.w3.org/community/publishingbg/ 17:09:19 …if you are not sure if your org is eligible, just clicked the join link and we'll address it manually 17:09:34 …First Publishing BG meeting is 10:30am-2:30pm London time 17:09:44 …there is a list, but people are still arriving 17:09:53 …we have a special TPI program for eligible IDPF members 17:10:07 …we should start having email exchanges on the Publishing BG shortly 17:10:19 …the steering committee is active, which is the former IDPF board members 17:10:31 …ultimately the PBG will elect the steering committee 17:10:34 …Agenda is there 17:10:43 …Expect discussions about charter will take place on GitHub 17:10:49 details on the meeting in London: https://www.w3.org/wiki/PublishingBG/meeting/2017-03-13#March_13.2C_2017_Kick-Off_Meeting 17:10:55 …there will be people in Publishing BG who are not part of this group, mainly for historical reasons 17:11:00 q? 17:11:02 Present+ Benjamin_Young 17:11:12 …to be as inclusive as possible, would be good if the charter discussions happened in GitHub 17:11:18 …Do you want more details? 17:11:26 Garth: any input as to how the Business Group 17:11:38 …which is expected to provide input to the charter of the WG 17:11:44 …how that process will go, and timing thereof? 17:12:00 BillMcCoy: Chartering of a WG at W3C has many steps, unlike the CG and BGs 17:12:11 …a WG has a number of more steps, including consent of all the W3C members 17:12:33 …we want to get that done as soon as possible, but we want to be inclusive to the whole publishing community 17:12:36 …a balancing act 17:12:44 …this group is ready to move on with the strawman draft charter 17:12:51 …there seems to be significant consensus 17:13:05 …but key factor is to get broader feedback from the community that has not been here for the past two years 17:13:12 …have the charter be attractive to the broader industry 17:13:17 …I don't think it will be that long 17:13:22 …this group has done an excellent job 17:13:33 …I hope the BG can get to a 'looks good to us' 17:13:36 q? 17:13:37 …I'm an optimist 17:13:42 Q+ 17:13:55 …hope we can get to this step quickly and get a new WG in place this spring, which is what I think everyone wants to happen 17:14:03 Leonard: Bill, do have any thoughts on how you see conflicts? 17:14:14 …you'd like to hope no bumps in the road 17:14:25 …but on off chance there is a conflict between BG and those who have been working already 17:14:36 …towards this effort, do you have a feeling on how those would be resolved? 17:14:51 BillMcCoy: we have chairs, self-nominated from among the steering committee 17:15:10 …those co-chairs are Paul Belfonti, Rick Johnson and Cristina Mussinelli 17:15:17 …so not a question of which group 17:15:23 s/Belfonti/Belfanti/ 17:15:24 …or one of people seeing it for the first time next week 17:15:30 …different perspectives 17:15:42 ack Leo 17:15:43 …from those who have been working on it v those who just arrived 17:16:00 …as you know, the draft charter has been sent to the W3C Advisory Committee 17:16:05 …we want to broaden the perspective 17:16:10 q+ 17:16:11 …process of consensus is magical 17:16:31 …but I'm confident for Paul, Rick, Cristina, Garth and Tzviya working with Ivan and me 17:16:48 …I hope we get better than rough consensus, but will be pleasantly surprised if we do 17:16:56 Garth: I'm even more of an optimist and will second that 17:16:56 q? 17:17:01 q? 17:17:07 …if no more commentary on business group or process stuff 17:17:15 ack dau 17:17:17 Dave: We had some earlier details about 11:30- 2:30 17:17:22 …wiki says 11:30-2:30 17:17:24 +1 17:17:49 Karen: the wiki is correct 17:18:26 Karen, I think you mis-typed above, it says the wiki says 11:30 17:18:42 s/11:30/10:30am Start 17:18:53 Garth: yes, 10:30am start 17:18:59 Bill: hope everyone can attend 17:19:08 Topic: remaining issues 17:19:10 publishing business group home page: https://www.w3.org/community/publishingbg/ 17:19:12 Garth: wold be good to publish a less drafty charter 17:19:21 …last week we had two action items jointly on Leonard and David's plate 17:19:27 …online offline and manifest 17:19:34 …chit chat on mailing list this morning 17:19:38 …David's comment 17:19:41 march 13 kickoff meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/PublishingBG/meeting/2017-03-13#March_13.2C_2017_Kick-Off_Meeting 17:19:45 …pull link to draft charter under section 2 17:19:48 …bullet 4 and 5 17:19:59 …the one talking about offline, second one talking about manifest 17:20:05 …I saw the email from David, and will be quiet 17:20:09 …and not propose language 17:20:16 …the current text in the draft charter 17:20:18 current github issue on online/offline: https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp/issues/41 17:20:24 …says [reads] 17:20:43 …email from Dave this morning was let's stay the course and leave that alone 17:20:43 q? 17:20:49 q+ 17:20:49 …I don't think that is in the camp Leonard is in 17:20:50 Q+ 17:20:56 q? 17:20:56 side note that W3C is co-sponsoring the EPUB Summit Europe 2017 on march 8-9 in Brussels still time to register see https://www.edrlab.org/epub-summit-2017/ 17:21:00 …not sure if you have synched on this, proposed language 17:21:03 ack Ivan 17:21:10 Ivan: I see question update on irc 17:21:15 …at this moment if we can set a priority 17:21:21 …of the @draft 17:21:32 …I think we have to be in a position of publishing that as well as the ucr asap 17:21:41 …to make it a better document input to the charter process 17:21:45 …that is my priority 17:21:52 …taking into account all things Bill explained 17:22:05 …I am uneasy to touch the charter until the business group is up and running 17:22:16 …I would be uneasy to change things significantly on the charter 17:22:19 q+ 17:22:21 Garth: maybe an ignorant comment 17:22:34 …I thought the online/offline had been agreed to in the PWP document; is that untrue? 17:22:37 Ivan: It's untrue 17:22:49 …we had a discussion two weeks ago; nothing has changed in PWP document 17:23:01 Garth: I thought it was totally on the charter? 17:23:07 …and not the PWP document 17:23:19 Ivan: It started with some questions that Leonard asked about the PWP document 17:23:27 Leonard: it has gone back and forth 17:23:37 …some stuff copied one from the other document but it's not in synch 17:23:48 q? 17:23:54 …I thought we were going to agree on language in charter and back it into PWP doc; but I don't care which way we go 17:24:09 Ivan: I thought it was the opposite; get the PWP text right and then moving that to the charter 17:24:17 …but I think it can lead to non-technical issues 17:24:35 Leonard: I would rather have the charter text better so that the BG is reading something this group is happy with 17:24:40 Garth: I think there is some possibility 17:24:55 …'that this looks good to us' from business group 17:25:06 …charter is more consumable than PWP and will get more consumption for that reason 17:25:12 …perhaps I neglected to ask you 17:25:23 …Leonard, is there language on the charter language that you and Dave agree upon? 17:25:36 Leonard: that was fine for me; I can completely live with what is there today 17:25:38 q? 17:25:42 ack Leo 17:25:47 ack dau 17:25:52 Garth: that sounds like a halleluia 17:26:07 …I read and that is what it says 17:26:12 …so if Leonard and Dave are happy 17:26:23 …then let's go with what we have there, and maybe we can declare victory 17:26:31 q? 17:26:33 …and I believe Dave is correct that we do match between charter and PWP 17:26:48 …don't want to be quiet for any further disagreement 17:26:57 …Let's note we have reached resolution in online and offline documents 17:27:04 …That brings us to the manifest discussion 17:27:12 …the other one that Dave and Leonard were going to synch on 17:27:24 …again, let me read a few sentences from the draft charter [reads] 17:27:54 …there was discussion two weeks ago about @ and presentation 17:27:59 q? 17:28:02 …or trim that paragraph ever so slightly 17:28:04 …any input 17:28:17 Dave: I apologize for not reaching out to Leonard to work on that language 17:28:20 Mia culpa from me too... 17:28:25 Garth: happy to open up for some discussion now 17:28:34 …on that 17:28:43 Q+ 17:28:47 …my two cents worth is whether manifest is "M" or "m" as loose term 17:28:48 q+ 17:28:53 …needs to be something about sequence somehwere 17:29:02 …one can argue about sequence and presentation 17:29:13 …I believe that was Leonard's proposal to drop sequence and presentation 17:29:21 …I expect we'll dig into that when we have the WG going 17:29:27 Leonard: my issue remains 17:29:43 …we can talk about sequence and presentation in the context of metadata and manifest 17:30:03 …but constiutent resources implies images and fonts and data that have nothing to do with sequence and presentation 17:30:13 …I would put a period after presentation 17:30:23 hadrien has joined #dpub 17:30:30 …and end after sequence and presentation…full stop 17:30:36 Dave: I'm fine with that, too 17:30:51 …manifest will need various information besides raw accounting of constituent resources 17:30:55 Leonard: Let me write something in irc 17:30:56 +1 17:30:58 I just recommend that we do this all via github issues not via this meeting 17:31:08 Garth: I propose we take a 25 second break for that post to come in 17:31:17 take it now and put it in as a github issue?? 17:31:20 Garth: Appreciate Bill's comment, but I want to take it now 17:31:25 …and get it back into the draft 17:31:27 "The metadata and manifest will also incorporate information about the sequence and presentation of the content" 17:31:27 …ok, Bill 17:31:33 so that draft changes come via github issues... 17:31:41 q? 17:31:41 Leonard: take as is, or word smith ok 17:31:47 Ivan: Make it clear that this includes the fact that 17:31:58 …resource of publication [full stop] and then your phrase 17:32:06 Leonard: yes, that was implied 17:32:07 q- 17:32:10 Q- 17:32:10 Garth: That looks fine to me 17:32:11 q? 17:32:16 +1 17:32:16 …This is great 17:32:20 q+ to practicalities 17:32:21 …Let's get that change into the charter 17:32:36 …and then we have both offline and Leonard or Ivan, who wants to do the charter change? 17:32:43 ack Ivan 17:32:43 ivan, you wanted to practicalities 17:32:51 Ivan: I will do this change on the charter tomorrow morning my time 17:32:56 …and some minor organizational things 17:33:05 …and I'll check if same language is used on draft 17:33:09 …make sure they are both in synch 17:33:18 …eager to see these be as mature as possible 17:33:21 Garth: Great 17:33:42 …if we can not re-open the online/offline and manifest discussions until we get to charter review or the real WG 17:33:48 q+ 17:33:55 q+ 17:33:55 …Do we have an update from the Accessibility TF from the recharter update? 17:33:58 q- 17:33:58 q? 17:33:59 ack Avneesh 17:34:14 Avneesh: Yes, so we have defined the task further; it was posted to the mailing list 17:34:19 …we have not received all responses 17:34:30 …but we have received some and it looks like it is moving towards resolution 17:34:36 …some people traveling to CSUN 17:34:45 …may be why responses are sloow 17:34:48 s/slow 17:35:00 Garth: You would get consensus in the TF and then propose language to the larger group? 17:35:06 Avneesh: yes, that is the plan 17:35:16 q? 17:35:23 q+ 17:35:25 George: Avneesh and I have agreed on what we think is the right language 17:35:33 …Charles, Deborah, others, happy to have you chime in 17:35:40 …but want to make sure others have a chance to look at it 17:35:46 q+ 17:35:57 Garth: If that can be driven forward in next couple of days, and then put on agenda for a week from today 17:36:10 q? 17:36:10 q- 17:36:14 …or let us know we don't have to talk about; or as agenda, that would be awesome 17:36:16 ack Dave 17:36:23 Deborah: that should be fine 17:36:29 …conversations on email list this morning 17:36:32 …should not be a problem 17:36:33 q? 17:36:36 …just have to make things shorter 17:36:41 Garth: Short is always good 17:36:53 …Ivan, I was going to ask him to talk logistics about getting these docs public 17:36:58 Ivan: essentially yes 17:37:06 …the changes we discussed earlier reflect consensus 17:37:15 …so I will put into the main branch tomorrow morning 17:37:22 +1 17:37:26 …but I would like to put the Accessibility into a separate pull request 17:37:34 …and not put that directly into the main branch 17:37:40 …put into a separate branch 17:37:43 …The other question is that 17:37:56 …the discussion we are having for the Accessibility is really relevant for the draft 17:38:00 …I think the draft is ok 17:38:19 …we are word smithing here to be appropriate, but not really appropriate for the draft 17:38:26 …shall I talk about practicalities? 17:38:38 Garth: Next agenda item is next steps, so yes, Ivan 17:38:46 Ivan: the charter we have discussed it will be there 17:39:00 …at this moment I know there are two open issues in the issue list 17:39:08 …which I propose this group not get into too much 17:39:17 …they are much more business rather than technical questions 17:39:23 …Bill McCoy can tell me if I am right or not 17:39:39 …one issue is around the exact position of WP v EPUB 4 17:39:46 …what do we mean by backward compatability 17:39:58 …which I expect will be a larger discussion with BG and AC 17:40:05 …we should not touch that right now 17:40:10 …Other comment that came up 17:40:15 …comments on issue of DRM 17:40:24 …I welcome you to look at the few issues there 17:40:36 …again, I think this is more up the alley of the BG 17:40:40 …am I right, Bill? 17:40:53 Bill: not sure what the engagement will be, but I do agree the BG is the right place for the discussion 17:40:58 q? 17:41:02 …since we don't have the BG rolling, it's more hypothetical 17:41:07 …I don't disagree with you 17:41:22 Garth: maybe I'm taking more happy pills than Bill on EPUB4 backward compatability 17:41:30 …it has somewhat petered out 17:41:36 …maybe we are close to a resolution on that 17:41:40 Ivan: I am less optimistic 17:41:43 …I think everyone is waiting 17:41:59 q+ 17:42:05 …one of people who started the discussion is Daniel Glazman, who realizes where this conversation will take place 17:42:08 Garth: we shall see 17:42:16 q? 17:42:18 …Daniel is not shy about disagreeing with me 17:42:20 Ivan: agreed 17:42:26 Garth: Who else... 17:42:26 ack ivan 17:42:33 Ivan: I will go on with the other documents 17:42:35 …let's get Dave 17:42:40 ack Dave 17:42:49 Dave: Another question about the scope of the EPUB3 CG 17:42:55 …what branch will be acceptable 17:43:01 Ivan: to come back to the other two documents 17:43:13 …those two are ready to be published as drafts 17:43:22 …we had short discussion about whether they should be drafts or notes 17:43:27 …Dave said should not be a note 17:43:38 …I am lukewarm on both sides, just important to have them be published 17:43:46 …I will go through the documents, mainly editorially 17:43:55 …Respect comes up with a few things 17:43:56 q? 17:44:05 Q+ 17:44:13 …I will get both docs into a format that can be published right away and we should have a resolution to publihs 17:44:21 ack dau 17:44:23 …and then I take care of it with the W3C web master 17:44:27 Garth: Dave? 17:44:35 …Leonard, go ahead 17:44:44 Leonard: I will add to tracker; but we have not discussed 3.2 17:44:51 …whether we leave them in the initial charter or not 17:44:57 …under potential rec track deliverables 17:45:07 …someone has a comment on whether we go down that path at all 17:45:10 ivan: the someone is me 17:45:26 Leonard: we don't want charter to go out with that editorial note; so do we leave or remove 3.2 17:45:39 q? 17:45:46 Garth: my proposal that this is biting off more than we want to in this group, so we should remove, but open to other opinions 17:45:50 q+ 17:45:51 Leonard: I agree with you 17:45:52 ack Leo 17:46:00 ..we should remove from charter, no active interest and we have enough to do 17:46:01 +1 to remove for now 17:46:04 …we can always add work 17:46:08 ack Ivan 17:46:16