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17:52:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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17:52:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
17:52:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
17:52:58 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
17:52:58 <trackbot> Date: 16 February 2017
17:53:07 <joanie> chair: Joanmarie_Diggs
17:53:17 <joanie> RRSAgent, make log public
17:53:23 <joanie> agenda?
17:53:28 <joanie> agenda: this
17:53:40 <joanie> agenda+ Testable statements - More tests in need of writing than we realized!
17:53:50 <joanie> agenda+ ATTA progress updates
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17:54:02 <joanie> agenda+ Getting started on manual testing
17:54:48 <joanie> agenda: be done
17:54:52 <joanie> agenda?
17:56:13 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:58:20 <MichielBijl> present+
17:58:53 <Stefan> present+
18:00:41 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
18:03:31 <janina> present+
18:03:35 <MichaelC> present+
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18:04:12 <joanie> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2017Feb/0033.html
18:04:18 <MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl
18:04:51 <joanie> Testable statements assessment: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2017Feb/0034.html
18:05:24 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:05:25 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
18:05:32 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2017Feb/0027.html
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18:05:50 <MichielBijl> joanie: that’s a link where he replied to my request
18:06:09 <MichielBijl> list of items literally doing a ?? from the spec
18:06:20 <MichielBijl> s/joanie/JD/
18:06:27 <joanie> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Test_Case_Coverage
18:06:32 <MichielBijl> This is the list that he compiled
18:06:39 <MichielBijl> s/he/Michael Cooper/
18:06:39 <jongund1> present+ jongund1
18:06:50 <clown> s/iterally doing a ?? from the spec/iterally doing a diff from the spec/
18:07:19 <MichielBijl> JD: Start putting placeholders for all of the items
18:07:22 <joanie> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements
18:07:26 <MichielBijl> Rather than another wiki page
18:07:34 <MichielBijl> I’ve redone the Testable Statements page
18:08:02 <MichielBijl> I think we had 5 areas left
18:08:08 <MichielBijl> I think Rich asked Stefan to do them
18:08:22 <MichielBijl> At no point did Rich say that there would be a ±170
18:08:29 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2017Feb/0034.html
18:08:51 <MichielBijl> That has some assumptions
18:08:57 <joanie> 1. For new, *non-global* properties: We need a test for each role that
18:08:57 <joanie>    supports that new property.
18:08:57 <joanie>    Rationale: We cannot assume that user agents use our taxonomy
18:08:57 <joanie>    programmatically in their implementations. Thus for non-global
18:08:58 <joanie>    properties, there's an excellent chance that we won't get the
18:08:59 <joanie>    implementation "for free"; instead, user agents will likely have
18:09:02 <joanie>    to add new support on a per-role basis.
18:10:51 <clown> +1
18:11:45 <MichielBijl> SZ: Only see ?? for button
18:11:49 <MichielBijl> Do we only test button?
18:12:09 <MichielBijl> JD: That’s the next point we’ll get to.
18:12:18 <MichielBijl> Have only talked about non-global properties
18:12:49 <MichielBijl> I’m beyond curious and hope that people can prove me wrong on point one?
18:12:52 <joanie> 2. For new, *global* properties: We just need to test one representative
18:12:52 <joanie>    role, plus any role for which there is special/custom behavior
18:12:52 <joanie>    related to that property.
18:12:52 <joanie>    Rationale: Global properties without role-specific special/custom
18:12:54 <joanie>    behavior is something we *can* assume user agents will not be
18:12:57 <joanie>    implementing on a per-role basis. Thus because the implementation
18:12:59 <joanie>    itself is likely to be global, exhaustive testing is not needed.
18:13:02 <joanie>    Hurray!
18:13:33 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:13:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/16-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
18:14:14 <MichielBijl> JD: Example - on my platform, GTK, is like a widget toolkit, we have placeholders, we have a mapping for it
18:14:24 <MichielBijl> Gecko never implemented that
18:14:42 <MichielBijl> It exposes an object attribute
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18:14:50 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaPlaceholder
18:15:32 <MichielBijl> In role description what the spec says it’s supported on everything
18:15:45 <MichielBijl> It can’t be whitespace only, can’t be an empty string, and ??
18:16:20 <MichielBijl> s/??/can only be applied to an explicit role/
18:16:35 <MichielBijl> s/explicit/explicit or implicit/
18:17:20 <MichielBijl> SZ: Shouldn’t we have examples where this is not as clear
18:17:25 <MichielBijl> Like role=application
18:17:38 <MichielBijl> JD: As long as it’s a role and the roledescription is valid
18:17:48 <MichielBijl> s/roledescription/role description/
18:17:56 <MichielBijl> We could test like very last role
18:18:12 <MichielBijl> But I think that wouldn’t be worth all the trouble
18:18:27 <MichielBijl> SZ: Is there a number of things that we’re missing?
18:19:37 <joanie> 3. For new roles: We just need to test non-global properties supported
18:19:37 <joanie>    on those roles:
18:19:38 <joanie>    Rationale: See rationales 1 and 2 above.
18:20:02 <MichielBijl> JD: We just need to test non-global properties supported on those roles
18:20:14 <MichielBijl> If it’s a global property on a role we get it for free
18:20:24 <MichielBijl> If it’s a non-global property we need to test it
18:20:28 <joanie> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements
18:20:52 <MichielBijl> Link to testable statements ⤴
18:21:12 <MichielBijl> JD: Priority number 1 is we need volunteers
18:21:44 <MichielBijl> Please, please, volunteer for as many test as you can
18:21:50 <MichielBijl> And fill in your name at the test
18:21:56 <MichielBijl> So we don’t get duplications
18:22:06 <MichielBijl> Some tests have “has questions”
18:22:24 <MichielBijl> Sometimes it boils down to “do we need to test this”
18:22:40 <joanie> In ARIA 1.1, aria-controls went from a supported to a required attribute for combobox.
18:22:43 <joanie> QUESTION: Is this really testable? There is no implicit value. The property was supported on combobox in 1.0, so we do not need to test that. There is nothing in the ARIA spec regarding what user agents need to do if the author fails to provide a value.
18:25:17 <MichielBijl> s/SZ/Joseph/g
18:25:47 <MichielBijl> JD: Joseph, can I ask you to go through the has questions?
18:25:58 <MichielBijl> And delete if it cannot be test?
18:26:13 <MichielBijl> Or update it if it can be tested
18:26:21 <MichielBijl> It’s really only 24
18:26:31 <MichielBijl> (if you don’t count the duplications)
18:27:33 <MichielBijl> MC: If “non-testable” is related to something in the spec wouldn’t that be a spec issue
18:28:09 <MichielBijl> JD: *points to question earlier*
18:28:27 <MichielBijl> The difference is between “this is supported” and “author must”
18:28:32 <MichielBijl> You can’t test that
18:30:33 <joanie> figure (HAS QUESTION)
18:30:33 <joanie> The figure role was added in ARIA 1.1
18:30:38 <joanie> QUESTION: The figure role has no non-global ARIA attributes. It is Joanie's assumption that global attributes do NOT also need to be tested for figure because presumably the user agent implementation of global attributes is not done on a per-role basis. If this is correct, only the role-mapping test below is needed.
18:31:16 <MichielBijl> JD: We have a 170 tests, but that is based of the three assumptions that we’re going through in this call
18:31:35 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:31:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/16-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
18:31:51 <ShaneM> we definitely do not need to test every last global attribute on every element...
18:32:20 <MichielBijl> JD: Are you suggesting that we leave the questions?
18:32:31 <MichielBijl> Can you do one so I know what you mean?
18:32:59 <MichielBijl> Are you saying we need to test all global attr?
18:33:02 <MichielBijl> Stefan: no
18:33:38 <MichielBijl> JD: Are you suggesting we document it elsewhere
18:33:44 <MichielBijl> Stefan: yes, that would be better
18:34:04 <MichielBijl> JD: Do you agree that given the consensus that it’s okay for Joseph to remove the question
18:34:10 <MichielBijl> Stefan: he can do what he want
18:35:11 <MichielBijl> JD: if the group consensus is that we need to test all the things
18:35:35 <MichielBijl> We should
18:36:23 <MichielBijl> JS: If it had global attributes we just tested the role mapping
18:36:39 <MichielBijl> JD: Are you willing to eliminate the has questions?
18:36:41 <MichielBijl> JS: Yes
18:36:57 <MichielBijl> MC: I do not believe we ever wrote ?? down
18:37:11 <MichielBijl> If we did it’s buried in a wiki somewhere
18:37:27 <MichielBijl> JS: We can put it at the top of this new page
18:37:34 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2017Feb/0034.html
18:38:43 <MichielBijl> Reminder: volunteers to please sign-up at the wiki
18:38:45 <Stefan> :)
18:39:24 <jongund1> can you hear me?
18:40:13 <MichielBijl> JD: Stefan can I ask you to edit the wiki, and add your name to everything that you’re going to test for
18:40:19 <MichielBijl> Stefan: yeah, but not today, will do later
18:40:32 <MichielBijl> JD: A lot of my writing had you in mind
18:41:26 <MichielBijl> JD: Anyone else who can volunteer
18:41:37 <MichielBijl> JG: I don’t have anymore bandwidth
18:41:43 <MichielBijl> Working on the ?? for ??
18:41:51 <MichielBijl> If we do start manual testing
18:42:03 <MichielBijl> I do have two additional people that can help with that
18:42:09 <MichielBijl> One is a mac user
18:42:41 <MichielBijl> s/the ?? for ??/ATTA for MSAA and IA2/
18:43:04 <MichielBijl> JD: Any given testable statement singular has multiple ??
18:43:59 <MichielBijl> s/??/assertions/
18:45:08 <MichielBijl> zakim, take up next item
18:45:08 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Testable statements - More tests in need of writing than we realized!" taken up [from joanie]
18:45:21 <MichielBijl> zakim, close item
18:45:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', MichielBijl
18:45:28 <MichielBijl> zakim, close item 1
18:45:28 <Zakim> agendum 1, Testable statements - More tests in need of writing than we realized!, closed
18:45:30 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:45:30 <Zakim> 2. ATTA progress updates [from joanie]
18:45:42 <MichielBijl> zakim, take up next item
18:45:42 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ATTA progress updates" taken up [from joanie]
18:46:23 <MichielBijl> JD: Microsoft had indicated that they could provided manual testers
18:46:30 <MichielBijl> But won’t be doing an ATTA
18:46:39 <MichielBijl> But the test cases were hardcoded in
18:46:48 <MichielBijl> It does not in any way reflect the shared API
18:47:08 <MichielBijl> MS had indicated that they could convert their new testing to ATTA
18:47:15 <MichielBijl> They kept not doing it
18:47:26 <MichielBijl> And a couple weeks ago they said they wouldn’t do it
18:47:40 <MichielBijl> What I wound up doing is I replied to ?? and ??
18:48:15 <MichielBijl> Boiled down to “thank you, we’ll take you up on your generous offer of the manual testers”
18:48:43 <MichielBijl> But would be awesome if you could provide an ATTA for your platform
18:49:14 <MichielBijl> I’m starting to figure out how to drill down into the a11y tree on mac
18:49:51 <MichielBijl> JG: One of my students has ?? working
18:50:16 <MichielBijl> We can now respond to PRs and get PRs
18:50:28 <MichielBijl> JD: Appreciated!
18:50:37 <MichielBijl> zakim, take up next item
18:50:37 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Getting started on manual testing" taken up [from joanie]
18:51:11 <MichielBijl> JD: Started writing documentation for manual testing, not done yet
18:51:25 <MichielBijl> Might also need a version for people supporting volunteers
18:52:43 <MichielBijl> If you have people that can test, manually, whose attention to detail is high, we want them!
18:53:41 <MichielBijl> JD: Any questions
18:53:49 <MichielBijl> *crickets*
18:54:31 <MichielBijl> topic: TPAC
18:54:50 <MichielBijl> topic: CSUN
18:55:30 <MichielBijl> It’s not next week but the week after right?
18:55:31 <jongund1> I will be at CSUN
18:55:34 <MichielBijl> JS: Right
18:56:03 <jongund1> I will probably not be available while I am at CSUN
18:58:38 <MichielBijl> JD: We’re meeting next week, and plan to have a meeting on March 2nd
18:58:49 <MichielBijl> If we don’t have enough people on the call we’ll cancel
18:59:23 <MichielBijl> Please please please please please please please start writing testable statements
18:59:36 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:59:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/16-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
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