13:52:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rqtf
13:52:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/02/15-rqtf-irc
13:52:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:52:34 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rqtf
13:52:36 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:52:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:52:37 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
13:52:37 <trackbot> Date: 15 February 2017
13:53:30 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Alternatives to CAPTCHA
13:54:37 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Web of Things - Use Cases and Requirements: Next Steps
13:55:09 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Miscellaneous topics, literature, etc.
13:55:20 <jasonjgw> present+ jasonjgw
13:58:14 <scott_h> scott_h has joined #rqtf
13:59:01 <Judy> Judy has joined #rqtf
14:04:01 <shadi> present+
14:04:05 <shadi> scribe: shadi
14:04:07 <scott_h> present+
14:04:22 <Judy> present+
14:04:26 <shadi> agenda?
14:05:02 <shadi> zakim, take up next
14:05:02 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Alternatives to CAPTCHA" taken up [from jasonjgw]
14:05:08 <jasonjgw> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:05:08 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Alternatives to CAPTCHA" taken up [from jasonjgw]
14:06:01 <shadi> JW: did some reading and added some reference sources to the wiki page
14:06:26 <shadi> ...found master's thesis that attracted quite some citations
14:06:51 <Judy> q+
14:06:52 <shadi> ...talking about biometric mechanisms for authentication
14:07:13 <Judy> q+ to note Scott's updated collection of CAPTCHA alternatives
14:07:25 <shadi> ...also another paper describing alternatives
14:07:40 <shadi> ...including detecting the behaviour of scripts and programs
14:08:05 <shadi> ...rather than trying to keep them out, try to detect them
14:09:01 <shadi> ...like timing of key strokes and keyboard focus that could distinguish behaviour
14:09:18 <shadi> ...but may also raise accessibility considerations in themsevles
14:09:46 <shadi> ...for example interaction by assistive technologies could trigger the algorithms
14:09:55 <shadi> ack j
14:09:55 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to note Scott's updated collection of CAPTCHA alternatives
14:10:08 <shadi> JB: Scott Hollier sent useful email last night
14:10:48 <shadi> SH: went through all CAPTCHA references
14:11:09 <shadi> ...existing CAPTCHAs are not as secure as they thought
14:11:26 <shadi> ...research says ~20% can be cracked by mere brute force techniques
14:11:45 <shadi> ...alternatives like visual identification could be problematic
14:12:25 <shadi> ...anectodal evidence that reCAPTCHA is fairly accessible
14:12:51 <shadi> ...one paper focused specifically on usability
14:13:07 <shadi> ...current approaches mostly focused on desktop concept
14:13:24 <shadi> ...also another approach of gamification seemed interesting
14:14:00 <shadi> ...separated papers into "alternatives" and "issues with CAPTCHA"
14:14:04 <jasonjgw> q?
14:14:11 <Judy> q+
14:14:25 <shadi> ack j
14:15:23 <shadi> JB: what is the question we are trying to answer?
14:15:45 <jasonjgw> q+
14:15:45 <shadi> ...what are the better alternatives to elevate to APA?
14:15:48 <shadi> q+
14:17:05 <shadi> JW: identifying alternatives
14:17:20 <shadi> ...several areas where APA can update their materials
14:17:50 <shwetank> shwetank has joined #rqtf
14:18:01 <janina> scribe: janina
14:18:11 <shadi> present+ shwetank
14:18:39 <jasonjgw> q?
14:19:12 <shadi> SD: head of research and innovation at BarrierBreak
14:19:22 <shadi> ...looking forward to contributing to this group
14:19:34 <shadi> [welcome to the group shwetank]
14:19:58 <janina> shadi: Suggest identifying the available alternatives before raising to APA
14:21:03 <janina> shadi: Noting it's also good usability practice, and we should include usability in the scope of what we recommend to say
14:21:28 <shadi> queue=
14:21:50 <shadi> JS: existing APA document does explain the general usability issues
14:21:57 <shadi> ...different remedies
14:22:15 <shadi> ...most useful would be drafting up sections
14:22:24 <Judy> q+
14:22:25 <shadi> ...can follow the existing approach and language
14:22:48 <shadi> ack j
14:23:08 <shadi> JB: putting draft work onto RQTF
14:23:20 <shadi> ...trying to avoid this
14:23:29 <shadi> ...don't want to add process issues
14:23:39 <shadi> ...but want to manage scope of work
14:24:04 <shadi> ...would it be sufficient to pass back the outcomes of the literature reviews?
14:24:05 <jasonjgw> q+
14:24:49 <shadi> JS: unless RQTF has concerns about the current structure
14:25:00 <shadi> ...but drop off the references in the right location
14:25:28 <shadi> ...in the same logical flow to highlight where the updating needs to happen
14:26:52 <Judy> q+
14:26:58 <Judy> ack ja
14:28:25 <shadi> queue=
14:28:35 <shadi> JB: what are the candidates so far?
14:28:44 <shadi> ...or maybe discuss this on the list
14:28:54 <scott_h> q+
14:29:13 <Judy> s/what are the candidates so far/which of the candidate options seem best so far?
14:29:23 <janina> ack sco
14:29:49 <Judy> q+
14:30:04 <jasonjgw> q+
14:31:12 <shadi> ack ju
14:32:11 <shadi> JB: linking back to the statistical findings could be useful
14:32:29 <shadi> ...maybe Google may be willing to share their accuracy rate
14:33:10 <shadi> ...could be an important point to highlight
14:33:21 <shadi> ...could also share with the community through WAI IG
14:33:29 <shadi> ...often get questions on CAPTCHA
14:35:30 <shadi> [side discussion on tooling]
14:35:51 <shadi> SH: 20% figure comes from issues with current CAPTCHA
14:36:16 <Judy> Judy has joined #rqtf
14:36:25 <shadi> JB: so 20% inaccurate?
14:36:28 <shadi> SH: yes
14:37:30 <jasonjgw> q?
14:38:02 <shwetank> The new captcha's sometimes use a different approach (like having a 3x3 grid of squares) with a different image in each sqaure. And then asking the user to click and highlight all the sqaures according to a certain criteria (like highlight all ones which contain a picture of a building) etc. It might be easy to internationalize it, but challenges should be there for cognitive disabilities
14:38:17 <shadi> ack jas
14:38:34 <shadi> JW: needing to move an object as CAPTCHA
14:38:50 <shadi> ...was not accessible for many users
14:39:36 <shadi> ...not clear to me which alternatives are most valuable
14:40:26 <shadi> ...Google approach was cited several times
14:40:38 <shadi> ...asks you to simply check a box
14:40:55 <shadi> ...but tries to detect certain parameters
14:41:25 <jasonjgw> q?
14:41:28 <shadi> ...with fallback procedure when there is suspicion
14:41:46 <shadi> ...may be good to find documentation on that
14:42:04 <shadi> JS: web authentication pointed out that it is always a balance
14:42:28 <shadi> ...at the end it is a heuristic decision that is made
14:42:57 <shadi> q+
14:43:45 <shadi> ...like the idea of just checking a box
14:44:09 <shadi> ack me
14:45:22 <shadi> SAZ: what was the primary target audience of the previous document and did it change?
14:45:36 <shadi> ...think back then we assumed website owners provide CAPTCHAs
14:45:52 <shadi> ...but meanwhile many third-party service providers
14:46:04 <shadi> JS: good point, need to check that
14:46:31 <shadi> JW: may also have privacy implications on third-party services
14:47:18 <shadi> JS: good point too
14:48:44 <shadi> zakim, take up next
14:48:44 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Web of Things - Use Cases and Requirements: Next Steps" taken up [from jasonjgw]
14:49:39 <shadi> JW: so far analyzing use cases and put forward requirements
14:50:35 <janina> shadi: Believe we're still at least a step away from defining use cases
14:51:04 <janina> shadi: We need more detail
14:51:44 <janina> shadi: Also more examples and more situations
14:52:08 <janina> shadi: We want to highlight different aspects
14:53:07 <shadi> JW: maybe action to elaborate these descriptions
14:53:36 <shadi> s/defining use cases/defining requirements
14:55:36 <shadi> SAZ: can we get to a point where can be comfortable sharing with the IG?
14:55:54 <shadi> JW: maybe elaborate existing use cases first?
14:56:31 <shadi> zakim, take up next
14:56:31 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Miscellaneous topics, literature, etc." taken up [from jasonjgw]
14:57:04 <shadi> JW: didn't discuss web authentication, though touched on it
14:57:19 <shadi> ...but also didn't discuss personalization
14:58:09 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
14:58:09 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
14:58:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jasonjgw, shadi, scott_h, Judy, shwetank
14:58:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:58:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/15-rqtf-minutes.html trackbot
14:58:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
14:58:18 <RRSAgent> I see no action items