00:01:41 jcraig has joined #css 00:04:05 antonp has joined #css 00:17:29 dauwhe has joined #css 00:22:50 fantasai: Align is published. 00:34:59 jcraig has joined #css 00:45:01 antonp has joined #css 00:54:40 stryx` has joined #css 00:55:03 antonp has joined #css 01:03:28 antonp has joined #css 01:09:53 antonp has joined #css 02:01:07 zcorpan has joined #css 03:01:32 zcorpan has joined #css 03:56:02 Florian has joined #css 04:02:57 zcorpan has joined #css 05:03:22 zcorpan has joined #css 05:16:02 myles has joined #css 06:41:12 antonp has joined #css 06:49:16 liam has joined #css 06:55:19 zcorpan has joined #css 07:36:29 liam has joined #css 08:32:00 stryx` has joined #css 08:34:37 Ms2ger has joined #css 09:13:29 svillar__ has joined #css 09:22:36 logbot has joined #css 09:26:33 glazou has joined #css 09:40:27 lajava has joined #css 09:40:59 svillar__ has joined #css 10:49:09 jnurthen has joined #css 12:58:40 plh has joined #css 13:49:51 Karen has joined #css 14:17:04 jcraig has joined #css 14:26:28 dauwhe has joined #css 14:32:03 zcorpan has joined #css 14:32:24 zcorpan has joined #css 14:42:00 TabAtkins: Same diff. Implementations are free to use magic to implement it, but it should behave the same. If that set of rules does not yield Web-compatible behavior then we need to fix it so it is, so that the “magic” behavior is defined. 15:47:38 zcorpan has joined #css 16:50:17 antenna has joined #css 16:53:34 tgraham has joined #css 16:55:09 dael has joined #css 16:55:28 ChrisL_ has joined #css 16:55:55 Guest87 has joined #css 16:58:00 trackbot, start meeting 16:58:03 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:58:03 Zakim has joined #css 16:58:04 Zakim, this will be Style_CSS FP 16:58:04 ok, trackbot 16:58:05 Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference 16:58:05 Date: 15 February 2017 16:58:13 present+ dael 16:58:17 ScribeNick: dael 16:58:19 present+ 16:58:23 present+ 16:58:34 present+ rachelandrew 16:58:45 present+ dauwhe 16:59:44 tmichel has joined #css 16:59:45 smfr has joined #css 17:00:12 present+ 17:00:20 astearns, #5 can probably be done without me 17:00:41 present+ antonp 17:00:48 Rossen_ has joined #css 17:01:00 Can someone adjust the topic to point to the current week's agenda? 17:01:05 zcorpan has joined #css 17:01:21 bcampbell has joined #css 17:01:25 myles has joined #css 17:01:33 present+ 17:01:34 astearns has changed the topic to: agenda for Feb 15th: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2017Feb/0067.html 17:01:43 present+ myles 17:01:44 present+ 17:01:47 present+ 17:01:50 resent+ 17:02:10 present+ 17:02:14 hmm.... that's not where I needed a missed "r" :) 17:02:20 astearns: Rossen_: can we do the text decoration one first? i have to drop off early 17:02:23 resist+ 17:02:26 present+ 17:02:33 jensimmons has joined #css 17:02:35 astearns: We'll start in a couple of minutes. 17:02:37 sure 17:02:41 present+ 17:02:43 I'm sure we can - Alan is driving today's call 17:02:44 Vlad has joined #css 17:02:47 present+ 17:03:24 present+ 17:03:28 present+ 17:03:38 astearns: We have plenty of people on the call. 17:03:48 Topic: A new property for text decorations to skip ink 17:03:53 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/962 17:03:56 alex_antennahouse has joined #css 17:04:08 myles: Is koji on? 17:04:09 present+ gregwhitworth 17:04:11 present+ 17:04:17 myles: If he's not on we shouldn't discuss. 17:04:25 Rossen_: People trickling in. 17:04:33 Topic: Request to publish FPWD of CSS Timing Functions 17:04:41 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2017Feb/0044.html 17:04:58 +1 to publication 17:05:03 astearns: That is something we had decided to do, but birtles is now ready to prep FPWD. Does anyone have any comment? 17:05:06 ??: Yes please 17:05:14 I think it would be good to also get corresponding updates to Animations and Transitions onto /TR 17:05:16 r+ r=me 17:05:18 Otherwise in favor 17:05:18 Rossen_: That's the timing functionality that was taken out of web animations? 17:05:25 astearns: That and frames 17:05:27 Rossen_: Let's do it 17:05:31 astearns: Objections? 17:05:37 Last Transitions draft is from 2013 17:05:47 smfr: Does this effect transitions and animations in that it removes text? 17:05:50 ChrisL_: I don't think so. 17:05:52 Last Animations draft is from 2013 17:05:53 present+ 17:05:58 These are wayyy out of date :( 17:06:04 TabAtkins: In a later pub we should probably remove them, but it doesn't have an immediate effect. 17:06:20 fantasai, yup... 17:06:25 astearns: And according to birtles it's just frames and he talks about new timings functions, not so much what's in transitions and animations. 17:06:33 astearns: again, objections? 17:06:34 present+ 17:06:44 RESOLVED: Publish FPWD of CSS Timing Functions 17:06:57 astearns: Should short name be css-timing or css-timing-functions 17:06:58 q+ 17:07:01 lots: timing please 17:07:06 rrsagent, here 17:07:06 See http://www.w3.org/2017/02/15-css-irc#T17-07-06 17:07:11 astearns: Great. Short names is css-timing 17:07:14 ack Florian 17:07:18 ack Florian 17:07:34 Florian: When doing fpwd and we resolve on a different short name than the ED what's the proceedure for renaming in the short name? 17:07:49 astearns: If it was just on draft server the short name was provisional. It's only fixed on FPWD. 17:07:54 Florian: But there are incoming links. 17:07:56 Florian, yes, inform plinss 17:08:04 We used to have a .htaccess file 17:08:06 We don't anymore 17:08:11 TabAtkins, ^^^^^ 17:08:13 TabAtkins: We have redirecting if needed in the htaccess file. 17:08:20 plinss is maintaining redirects in a different system 17:08:24 TabAtkins: css-timing hasn't been reffed much but we can set it up 17:08:29 astearns: [reads fantasai] 17:08:36 TabAtkins: Well, we still have a system. 17:08:40 Florian: Okay, thank you! 17:08:51 TabAtkins, yes, but it doesn't work by editing a file in the csswg-drafts repo... 17:09:01 Topic: A new property for text decorations to skip ink 17:09:04 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/962 17:09:08 present+ 17:09:20 koji: This is about the resolution to add text-decoration skip ink to L3 17:09:34 koji, it is very hard hearing you 17:10:34 koji: This is a proposal. 2 discussion points. 1 is property name. is text-decoration-skip-ink appropriate? Since we don't do text underline skipping would be better 17:10:40 tantek has joined #css 17:10:48 koji: Other is about values. fantasai said auto|yes|no 17:11:01 koji: If this is fine what auto should be is a discussion point. 17:11:15 No, it also affects overlines 17:11:17 astearns: Let's go one at a time. Can we resolve on changing the name? 17:11:36 Should not be part of shorthand 17:11:37 belated IRC-only regrets for the first part of this meeting 17:11:38 Florian: Related is if it should be part of the L4 shorthand. If it is it should start with the same thing. If it's not we can be more creative. 17:11:43 It should cascade independently 17:11:55 koji: I'd prefer not to make short hand because this is styling decoration underlines. 17:11:56 q? 17:12:21 Rossen_: I'm trying to understand...this proposed behavior is supposed to desc what webkit currently does for text decoration underline? 17:12:26 myles: For skip ink yes 17:12:41 Rossen_: And you (myles) do this auto for text decoration underline? 17:12:45 myles: I don't remember exactly. 17:13:09 Rossen_: Let's assume you'r doing it at least for underline. Is it done unconditionally? There's no additional optional values? 17:13:33 myles: Conditionally where you can turn it off. THe initial value was changed to ink so users can use a value of off 17:13:41 Florian: But if it's on it's always on? auto or yes? 17:13:52 agenda+ https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/942 17:14:00 myles: We do auto because we have special CJK behaviors were we turn on/off at a glyph level. 17:14:02 text-decoration-ink: skip | no-skip ? 17:14:03 agenda+ https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1033 17:14:05 present+ 17:14:17 Rossen_: That sounds good. 17:14:21 Rossen_: Thank you. 17:14:31 Rossen_: Both skip and auto make sense in how you desc them. 17:14:38 koji: Ink has same behavior in beta 17:15:00 myles: I don't have many preferences. I jsut have that the auto keyword to do what I desc should not go away 17:15:06 Paying my respects to the newborn timing functions spec <3 17:15:11 koji: I agree. We're interested in opt out and opt in. 17:15:23 Florian: Do we need all three or auto and don't skip? 17:15:34 myles: Currently webkit it's impossible to skip on CJK. 17:15:51 Rossen_: But you can opt out of the auto with the non-skipping version? 17:15:55 myles: Yes, you can opt out 17:16:12 Florian: So you have 2 values. Do we want 2 or 3? 17:16:34 myles: THe reason we decided to never skip on CJK is because it looks terrible more or less always. But my preference isn't strong. 17:16:42 Rossen_: We shouldn't make bad decisions easy. 17:16:47 present+ 17:16:48 Florian: Adding a value later isn't hard 17:17:03 astearns: We can do auto and no for now. If a need appears later to force it we can consider it them 17:17:03 +1 17:17:06 myles: I think that's a good idea 17:17:34 Florian: I thinkt hat helps with naming. In that case having text-docration-skip: auto makes sense because it knows not to do line-through 17:17:44 Florian, read up 17:17:48 Florian: That also depends on koji's point about no short hand. I didn't understand why 17:18:11 koji: I think you had an example that most of the other properties apply to a specific element but skip-ink applies to root elements 17:18:15 Florian: mmm..okay 17:18:30 astearns: And fantasai put in irc that they should cascade sep. I'm not sure the reason. 17:18:46 astearns: I'm nto hearing a strong desire to change the name to underline. 17:19:04 astearns: I think we should keep the name as text-decoration-skip 17:19:09 Florian: Even if not part of the short hand? 17:19:42 fantasai: Behavior is a lot more like text underline position. You'll want to set it at a higher level for how you want to behave for the doc. Turning on and off for the underline is seperate. Thus they shouldn't be conflated. 17:19:47 Florian: Then they shouldn't have same prefix. 17:20:08 fantasai: Yeah, in general we try that but something is closely related will share a prefix and not be in the shorthand 17:20:36 astearns: I would prefer the same prefix so you don't have to remember a different word. And it's easy to remember difference because people will be using it differently 17:20:54 koji: We have text emphasis where it's not in the short hand. I think if this should be in the short hand can be seperate. 17:21:02 Florian: It's intuitive enough 17:21:10 Florian: Can I suggest off instead of no 17:21:12 myles: None? 17:21:16 Florian: That's fine too. 17:21:22 Rossen_: Can we summerize? 17:21:37 Rossen_: I've heard it's text-decoration-skip: auto|none 17:21:40 text-decoration-skip-ink: none | auto 17:21:45 astearns: I think it's text-decoration-skip-ink 17:21:47 koji: yes 17:21:57 ✅ 17:22:07 astearns: proposal text-decoration-skip-ink:non|auto with auto default 17:22:14 Rossen_: Reason to not remove ink? 17:22:25 I'm provisionally OK with this. Need to think about integration with other text-decoration-skip values. 17:22:32 Florian: There's a level 4 that skips in other places. Ink is a sub case that's in level 3. 17:22:39 https://www.w3.org/TR/css-text-decor-3/#text-decoration-skip-property 17:22:40 Rossen_: So...I see. 17:22:55 Florian: Shouldw e define what auto does? 17:23:07 myles: No. :) 17:23:23 Florian: There has been discussion on github that auto shifts the baseline. I don't htink it should do that 17:23:28 koji: That was a misunderstanding. 17:23:40 myles: If we don't define auto UA can tweak. 17:23:50 Florian: I'd rather UA not to use skipping for positioning. 17:24:10 Rossen_: Asside from bikeshedding I think these are good things to agree on. 17:24:35 astearns: Is text-decoration-skip-ink with values as none|auto with auto default...is anyone opposed? 17:24:59 fantasai: It's okay to me. I'd like to think about how it integrates with other skipping, but it's fine for now. We should note that it's not in the shorthand. 17:25:09 astearns: Yes, and I believe how it works with the rest is for the next level 17:25:30 dbaron: So that's saying that impl are expected to turn it on by default upon impl. 17:25:45 dbaron: We're saying that there will be no way to opt into more skipping then default 17:25:48 Rossen_: As of now, yes 17:26:04 astearns: For this level. We're doing the minimum to finish this level of text decoration. We'll add more later. 17:26:06 dbaron: Okay. 17:26:29 Florian: As part of peopling auto to UI does that make it non-testable? Because then auto could be same as none. 17:26:36 tobie has joined #css 17:26:37 It feels a little odd to introduce it as a change in behavior rather than opting in to the different behavior 17:26:48 astearns: I would prefer having some suggestions that it SHOULD skip ink in roman but not arabic. 17:27:00 astearns: I'm not sure that the impl notes should be normative 17:27:09 BogdanBrinza has joined #css 17:27:09 Florian: If we don't we can go to rec with no impl. 17:27:19 Florian: That doesn't sound helpful. 17:27:52 tantek has joined #css 17:27:53 myles: If there are non-normative or normative notes they shouldn't list every language. Maybe a couple of examples are valuable. Saying which lang should and shouldn't shouldn't be in spec. I should say script, not lang. 17:28:10 dbaron: On the other hand then you're asking impl to figure it out. So 4 teams do it. 17:28:15 myles: The teams can talk 17:28:23 astearns: I'm not sure any team has an exustive list 17:28:33 Florian: We can have a base case and exceptions. 17:28:45 myles: We can say it's expected to skip in latin and others are up to UA 17:28:51 Florian: Yes. Can that be a must? 17:28:52 dbaron, in this particular case we apparently have precedent from the ancient browsers if the 1990s :) 17:29:04 astearns: Obj to having a normative must on skipping ink in latin cases? 17:29:26 +1 to ChrisL 17:29:47 ChrisL_: It's not an objection, but it comes across that this is the lang we care about. I know that's not the intention but it sounds a bit awk. I don't have abetter suggestion. 17:30:05 ChrisL_: I jsut have a slight concern. WE could ask i18n for help 17:31:01 fantasai: It would make mroe sense to go the other way and say skip ink for everything except cases wher eyou know you shouldn't. Tihs is mostly on or mostly off. If we want to make an exception for if there's a case where you think it looks bad you can not do it. But it should clearly say if you don't know what to do you should define what to do 17:31:17 dbaron: Saying do it is awk for something that will be the default. 17:31:40 dbaron: If it were an options dev turn on that's fine. But given that the default is skip ink we need to gather a list where it would look back. 17:31:50 q? 17:31:59 fantasai: I would prefer on and off and if you want to do it lang dependant you can do it that way 17:32:03 Florian: It's glyph based. 17:32:07 q+ 17:32:16 myles: We found it looks terrible in too many cases with untagged docs. 17:33:00 Like, say, is skip-ink desirable for Kannada? 17:33:07 Rossen_: The huge benefit is when it comes online and it just works. When I've seen it on Apple it was cool to see it. No authors had to do anything. I agree we need to do better homework for when to turn it off by default. I don't think we need to decide it this moment. 17:33:32 or Malayalam? 17:33:32 Rossen_: We'll continue wokring on this feature. I thinkw e can wrap up by agreeing to adopt the prop and values and then continue tech details of auto's definition 17:33:59 Florian: In general I agree. I want to add a nuance. I'm okay with doing homework later. I don't want ot call it done in L3 without an explination. 17:34:02 s/look back/look bad/ 17:34:40 dbaron: I think it is desired for South Asian and Southeast Asian scripts. The ones I've investigated use it. 17:34:52 astearns: Things are going in circle. I think we should close for now. I do believe we can resolve we're using txt-decoration-skip-ink with at least values of auto and none and it cascade sep from shorthand. We will have some normative text desc how auto works, but we'll figure the details out in the future 17:34:58 astearns: Obj to leaving it there? 17:35:18 fantasai: The spec is in CR. The goal for me has been to wrap up issues and do a stable CR. Maybe it should go next draft. 17:35:22 astearns: That's possible. 17:35:30 WOuld there be obj to moving this to next level? 17:35:41 Rossen_: Once we accept we can move it back in to L3 17:35:57 Florian: I'm okay with L3 or L4. It jsut needs to be with its defined normative behavior 17:36:01 +1 to Florian 17:36:06 astearns: proposed resolution: everything before in L4 17:36:11 astearns: obj? 17:36:30 koji: Webkit has a seperate behavior we had the ability to opt out and this removes the ability 17:36:55 astearns: I think this is process. We're defining it, it's just in a next module level so we can get to the current impl interop things done. 17:37:06 fantasai, those in particular have different sorts of descenders, which is why they seem interesting (and different from many North Indian scripts) 17:37:07 Florian: L4 isn't an ED yet 17:37:13 astearns: I'm hearing no objections 17:37:20 I really object to having "no skipping" and "maybe skipping, not sure if we want this to be mostly skipping or mostly not skipping" 17:37:39 RESOLVED: Use text-decoration-skip-ink with at least values of auto and none and it cascade sep from shorthand. We will have some normative text desc how auto works, but we'll figure the details out in the future. Do in L4 17:37:41 If it's "no skipping" and "skip unless it's really bad"... I could deal with that. 17:37:54 Topic: create a display property value for visually hiding an element while making it available for AT 17:38:01 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/560 17:38:02 byebye! 17:38:04 present- myles 17:38:12 jensimmons has joined #css 17:38:18 bye myles 17:38:46 fantasai: I think we decided not to do anything. THis was really if we wanted to do anything with speak or speak-as. There may be further discussion o nthis draft, but I don't see solid proposals. Maybe repub CSS Speech. 17:38:48 dbaron, https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fscripts.sil.org%2Fcms%2Fsites%2Fnrsi%2Fmedia%2FLannaThai.png&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fscripts.sil.org%2Fiws-chapter09&docid=NHIB5z_77yfkSM&tbnid=HVHxh3UDHHSEoM%3A&vet=1&w=576&h=278&client=ubuntu&bih=705&biw=1465&q=thai%20underline&ved=0ahUKEwjJ0_-c0pLSAhXH5oMKHRoOCwQQMwgmKAwwDA&iact=mrc&uact=8#h=278&imgrc=HVHxh3UDHHSEoM:&vet=1&w=576 17:38:52 astearns: Anyone have something more to add? 17:39:03 dbaron, http://scripts.sil.org/cms/sites/nrsi/media/LannaThai.png 17:39:07 astearns: Shall we resolve to close the issue? 17:39:17 fantasai: I would say do we want to republish CSS Speech CR 17:39:23 astearns: With what changes 17:39:37 fantasai: We renamed some values and def they're effected by visibility 17:39:40 astearns: Objections? 17:39:43 We did that last month 17:39:53 RESOLVED: Republish CSS Speech CR 17:40:10 ChrisL_: New features, or jsut text? Do I do the non-technical? 17:40:19 fantasai: It's non-technical 17:40:22 ChrisL_: DoC? 17:40:26 fantasai: I can update in 5 minutes. 17:40:32 ChrisL_: And a changes section? 17:40:34 fantasai: Yep. 17:40:36 ChrisL_: Thanks. 17:40:42 Topic: Stretching image grid items in both dimensions 17:40:47 rrsagent, here 17:40:47 See http://www.w3.org/2017/02/15-css-irc#T17-40-47 17:40:47 s/minutes./minutes; there were only 2 issues./ 17:40:51 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2017Feb/0067.html 17:41:46 fantasai: The discussion we had in Seattle...mats said it was unclear if we're discutinguishing by if it's replaced or has an aspect ratio. TabAtkins and I thought it should be based on if they have an aspect ratio. Images that don't generally take their size from the container anyways. 17:42:06 fantasai: We need to answer what happens to an image that has no aspect ration & no size. 17:42:16 fantasai: An SVG with no viewbox, width, or height 17:42:30 fantasai: OTher question is what if it just has width. 17:43:11 Rossen_: For SVG these things are def in integration spec. The internal sizing algo for all the permutations. I don't think there's anything new that will be added for SVG. 17:43:37 Rossen_: You can word it so SVG is treated as non aspect ratio image and it won't effect sizing in SVG. It's just a choice of which to we apply in SVG. 17:44:12 fantasai: Only thing that really makes sense if for it to take the size of the fixed size grid container. That's what we do in blocks when we can. 17:44:17 Rossen_: I think this is reasonable. 17:44:32 fremy has joined #css 17:45:12 Rossen_: From text POV if we tried to make a distinction between what applies with and without intrinisic ratio this isn't the place. IF we want the spec to call out this applies to when it has an intrinisic size and this is when it does and leave out the definition for another spec. 17:45:28 fantasai: Right. We don't say when, but we define different behavior for when it has one and when it doesn't. 17:45:39 Rossen_: From what I udnerstand Mats pushed back this isn't well defined in grid? 17:46:13 fantasai: We had defined it and Mats pushed back it didn't match what was resolve din his understanding that allr eplaced elements have one behavior which is the shrink to fit. 17:46:36 Rossen_: I think if we change the wording to refer to replaced elements with an intrinisic ratio it solves both issues. 17:46:52 Rossen_: Does that sound right? 17:47:05 fantasai: I need to look at the wording. 17:47:33 astearns: As much as I'm following, we need a resolution that our previous resolution only applies to replaced elements... 17:47:47 Rossen_: The other way. It currently applies to all replaced elements. 17:47:50 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/523#issuecomment-275869984 17:47:53 fantasai: Here's the comment ^ 17:48:01 fantasai: [reads] 17:48:18 dbaron: Yep. 17:49:08 dbaron: I think Mats' point is he wants the WG to resolve something that matches what people put in the issue. Since there have been previous edits where edits and the resolution diverge. He's sensitive that edits and resolutions can diverge and he's pointing those out. 17:49:23 The two questions we need to resolve are https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/523#issuecomment-277103785 17:49:27 Rossen_: Yes. THat's a valid point. Having a tighter definition of which replaced elements will be good. 17:49:39 fantasai: There's two questions we need to resolve [reads] 17:49:51 fantasai: First should get stretched. 17:50:14 astearns: Before we get to the questions don't we need tor esolve that we meant the previous resolution to only apply to those with an aspect ratio 17:50:25 astearns: What is THIS that only applies to things with an aspect ratio 17:50:52 Rossen_: Instead os stretch we respect the instrinisic ratio. [looks for exact previous resolution wording] 17:51:14 Items without an intrinsic ratio use, in both axes, the width calculation rules for non-replaced block boxes as defined in CSS2.1 § 10.3.3. (Meaning, auto values in either axis are effectively sized to fill the remaining space.) However, the box alignment properties have special effects: when align-self/justify-self is neither normal nor stretch, an auto size for the grid item in that axis is treated as fit-content instead of as the stretch-fit size. See [CUT] 17:51:21 Items with an intrinsic ratio follow the same rules, except that in the case of a normal alignment value, an auto size for the grid item is sized as for align-self: start (consistent with the width calculation rules for block-level replaced elements in CSS2.1 § 10.3.4). 17:51:26 fantasai: Current spec text^ 17:52:04 Rossen_: The resolution says we're keeping the current behavior as-is. 17:52:16 astearns: What's the change to satisfy Mats? 17:52:40 zcorpan_ has joined #css 17:52:41 TabAtkins: WE talked about replaced elements when we meanth those with aspect ratio. Reoslving that. THen some questions falling out from that. 17:53:05 Rossen_: Reading from fantasai text we're talking about [reads] This is talking about intrinisc ratio. 17:53:24 fantasai: That's not what was in the minutes so Mats wants confirmation 17:53:48 astearns: Proposed resolution is that the sentence pasted above is what was intended from the Seattle resolution and we resolve on that text. 17:53:55 astearns: Objections? 17:54:28 RESOLVED: The sentence beginning with "Items without an intrinsic ratio use," is what we as a WG wanted to use 17:54:33 astearns: Okay, the questions. 17:55:12 fantasai: WE didn't really talk abotu the first case. It makes sense to me that the axis with an intrinisic size should follow the second clause. In the dimension without a size it behaves as stretch 17:55:35 astearns: So that first sentence would be that items without an intrinisic size in the axis.... 17:55:56 Rossen_: I'd rather say items with defined size in only one dimension, that dimenstion is start and the other is stretch 17:56:07 fantasai: I'm happy to word smith, but if we conclude on the behavior. 17:56:29 Rossen_: Proposed: replaced elements with only one intrinisic size are sized as start in that dimension and stretch in the other. 17:56:35 ChrisL_: I think that makes sense. 17:56:50 astearns: repleaced elements with one intrinisic size and no aspect ratio 17:56:52 fantasai: Yes. 17:57:03 astearns: Objections to Rossen_ proposal? 17:57:12 RESOLVED: replaced elements with only one intrinisic size are sized as start in that dimension and stretch in the other 17:57:22 astearns: We'll let the editors get that into the spec text. 17:57:27 Rossen_: fantasai you doing this? 17:57:31 fantasai: I'll do the edits. 17:57:50 Topic: [css-cascade] Path to PR 17:57:55 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2017Feb/0067.html 17:57:58 astearns: Main thing is drops coped styles 17:58:12 TabAtkins: Which is support. FF might impl, but no one else is planning on them. 17:58:18 dbaron: We are keeping our impl for now 17:58:25 fantasai: It is also defined in cascade L4 17:58:41 astearns: If we drop from level 3 would we also from l4? 17:58:50 zcorpan has joined #css 17:58:58 fantasai: We can decide on that once we're blocked on PR. Do we have 2 impl of revert keyword? 17:59:07 fantasai: THat's the main new thing on L4 17:59:22 astearns: Obj to dropping scoped styles from current level of css cascade? 17:59:31 RESOLVED: dropscoped styles from current level of css cascade 17:59:43 fantasai: We need action items for getting impl test into the repo. 18:00:05 fantasai: If no one wants to import tests they can point to where the tests are so someone else can import. 18:00:14 fantasai: If we don't have tests we can't go to PR. 18:00:33 astearns: ANyone willing to take an action item? 18:00:37 TabAtkins: I can find the ones for us 18:00:45 ACTION TabAtkins to find cascade tests 18:00:53 Error creating an ACTION: could not connect to Tracker. Please mail with details about what happened. 18:00:57 tantek has joined #css 18:01:12 ACTION TabAtkins to find cascade tests 18:01:20 Error creating an ACTION: could not connect to Tracker. Please mail with details about what happened. 18:01:48 astearns: I guess we'll see if the blink tests are sufficient. It's like more participation since we don't do enough compiling of test suites. I'd rather volunteers. 18:02:09 fantasai: What I can do is I can grab and import the MOzilla tests and they have 2 copies. 18:02:26 dbaron: I'm having trouble finding tests. The only tests I know we have are mochi (sp) tests 18:02:32 dbaron: You can't import those. 18:02:52 fantasai: If you can drop in the URLs we can look to try and convert. 18:03:01 fantasai: Then it's more solvable of a problem. 18:03:02 layout/style/test/test_all_shorthand.html was the one I found 18:03:05 but it's a mochitest 18:03:11 astearns: We're over time. Thanks everyone for calling in. 18:03:26 jamesn has joined #css 18:03:45 I'd like to take this opportunity to remind people to watch the csswg-test Pull Request queue. There's quite a bit of tests there sitting and waiting. 18:03:55 s/It's like/I'd like/ 18:04:08 +1 to Florian 18:04:12 I'll also point out we still haven't made most of the metadata optional in the tooling so there's still a fair bit of metadata to add to tests if we want them for css-cascade 18:04:31 dbaron, making sure all of the things Mozilla has tested is also tested in the CSSWG test suite would make me a lot more confident that we've got good test coverage, even if we can't actually import the tests themselves. :) 18:04:45 Of course, if we're just starting a new testsuite, we could just try putting them in web-platform-tests and using the tooling everyone else has been using. 18:04:45 dbaron, Mozilla is good at figuring out which tests need to be written 18:05:16 s/Mozilla is/Mozilla devs are/ 18:05:18 tantek: can you review these: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-test/pull/1196 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-test/pull/1193 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-test/pull/1192https://github.com/w3c/csswg-test/pull/1192 18:05:39 tantek: if not, who should? (I can't, I wrote them). 18:05:44 gsnedders: cascade is relatively small, it won't be too difficult to tag them 18:06:58 fantasai: I'd like to see if the group actually finds the tooling everyone else has been using acceptable and then we can move away from our custom tooling even sooner 18:07:48 gsnedders: I'm not familiar with WPT tooling. Can it give me a list of tests applicable to a particular section of a spec? 18:08:33 fantasai: really, the way to find the Mozilla tests for things is to find the bugs that implemented the features that you want the tests for (including the other fixes in their dependency tree), and figure out where those patches added tests 18:09:06 fantasai: insofar as it is encoded in the path of all tests, yes 18:09:14 dbaron, yeah :/ Would be nice if Mozilla had a better path-based sort 18:09:50 dbaron, or put Web platform tests into the appropriate export directories by default 18:09:54 whenever appropriate 18:10:16 fantasai: WPT in general has avoided the CSS habit of putting hundreds/thousands of tests in one directory 18:10:38 fantasai: and maintained a mapping of directory structure to section, which has as far as anyone can tell sufficed 18:10:55 gsnedders: That's not going to cover interaction tests, of which we have many 18:11:01 fantasai: we generally do, but there are a bunch of features that it's easiest to test by putting tests into existing large mochitests 18:11:10 fantasai: which we should probably have a CSSWG version of, but I haven't gotten to doing that 18:11:26 fantasai: In particular, I'm thinking of all the tests we have that are based on layout/style/test/property_database.js 18:11:39 jcraig has joined #css 18:11:41 dbaron: I recall you importing the CSS2.1 version of that at one point 18:12:01 fantasai: never finished 18:12:11 fantasai: as does WPT; it's not ideal but there's never been anyone willing to add metadata to tests to make such a tool useful 18:12:26 fantasai: (for interaction tests, that is) 18:12:32 fantasai: either at test authoring time, or in hindsight 18:16:10 fantasai: everyone else survives without this tooling despite interaction tests being no more rare; why does it make such a huge difference to the CSS WG? 18:22:20 trackbot, end meeting 18:22:20 Zakim, list attendees 18:22:20 As of this point the attendees have been dael, antenna, astearns, rachelandrew, dauwhe, tmichel, antonp, gsnedders, myles, Florian, tgraham, TabAtkins, Rossen_, jensimmons, smfr, 18:22:23 ... dbaron, Vlad, gregwhitworth, alex_antennahouse, zcorpan, plh, melanierichards, RachelNabors, ChrisL_ 18:22:28 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 18:22:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/15-css-minutes.html trackbot 18:22:29 RRSAgent, bye 18:22:29 I see no action items