20:44:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sdwssn
20:44:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/02/14-sdwssn-irc
20:44:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:44:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sdwssn
20:44:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SDW
20:44:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
20:44:31 <trackbot> Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
20:44:31 <trackbot> Date: 14 February 2017
20:44:44 <phila> s/Wworking/SSN Sub/
20:44:50 <phila> s/Working/SSN Sub/
20:44:58 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:56:20 <SimonCox> SimonCox has joined #sdwssn
20:56:41 <phila> phila has changed the topic to: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Meetings:SSN-Telecon20170214
20:56:59 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Meetings:SSN-Telecon20170214
20:57:07 <phila> chair: Armin
20:57:33 <SimonCox> IS webex up yet?
20:57:46 <phila_car> I'll check SimonCox
20:58:14 <phila_car> You shouldn't need me to be here to use the WebEx
20:58:19 <phila_car> But I'm dialling in anyway
20:58:30 <SimonCox> Says host has not yet joined the meeting
20:58:41 <roba> roba has joined #sdwssn
21:00:50 <ahaller2> present+ ahaller2
21:01:47 <phila_car> present+
21:02:11 <SimonCox> present+ SimonCox
21:02:44 <roba> present+
21:03:17 <ClausStadler> ClausStadler has joined #sdwssn
21:03:30 <KJanowic> KJanowic has joined #sdwssn
21:03:39 <roba> yes
21:04:11 <ahaller2> scribe: roba
21:04:16 <roba> i'm eating too but will be finfished soon :-)
21:04:30 <DanhLePhuoc> DanhLePhuoc has joined #sdwssn
21:04:32 <roba> scribenick: roba
21:04:51 <mlefranc> mlefranc has joined #sdwssn
21:04:58 <kerry_> kerry_ has joined #sdwssn
21:05:04 <kerry_> present+ kerry
21:05:20 <RaulGarciaCastro> RaulGarciaCastro has joined #sdwssn
21:05:21 <mlefranc> present+ mlefranc
21:05:39 <DanhLePhuoc> present+ DanhLePhuoc
21:05:55 <KJanowic> present+
21:06:05 <ahaller2> topic: Patent call https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call
21:06:10 <RaulGarciaCastro> present+ RaulGarciaCastro
21:06:49 <SimonCox> approve last week's minutes?
21:07:00 <phila_car> -> https://www.w3.org/2017/02/07-sdwssn-minutes Last week's minutes
21:07:04 <ahaller2> topic: approve last week's minutes
21:07:08 <KJanowic> +1
21:07:16 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
21:07:17 <ahaller2> +1
21:07:20 <SimonCox> +1
21:07:21 <RaulGarciaCastro> +1
21:07:22 <phila_car> +1
21:07:28 <mlefranc> +1
21:07:41 <ahaller2> topic: Alignment of SOSA/SSN with O&M shall denote classes and properties from the ISO 19156 O&M UML model using URIs which are defined in ISO 19150-2, and are currently visible in ontology files available from https://github.com/ISO-TC211/GOM/tree/master/isotc211_GOM_harmonizedOntology/19156/2011
21:07:50 <roba> +1 - noting i was in fact present ..
21:08:40 <mlefranc> q+
21:09:34 <kerry_> q+
21:10:16 <phila_car> q+ to talk URIs
21:10:22 <roba> simoncox  reiterated the proposal
21:10:23 <ahaller2> ack mlefranc
21:10:37 <SimonCox> RobA is the scribe!
21:10:43 <mlefranc> q-
21:10:51 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:11:27 <ahaller2> ack phila_car
21:11:27 <Zakim> phila_car, you wanted to talk URIs
21:11:47 <roba> kerry_: is this only as ref to the O&M model
21:12:09 <ahaller2> q?
21:12:18 <ahaller2> PROPOSAL: Alignment of SOSA/SSN with O&M shall denote classes and properties from the ISO 19156 O&M UML model using URIs which are defined in ISO 19150-2, and are currently visible in ontology files available from https://github.com/ISO-TC211/GOM/tree/master/isotc211_GOM_harmonizedOntology/19156/2011
21:12:21 <roba> phila: dsicussed with ISO, "good will" regarding intent here, dereferencing mechanics to be taken care of
21:12:31 <KJanowic> +1
21:12:32 <SimonCox> +1
21:12:34 <ahaller2> +1
21:12:37 <kerry_> +1
21:12:37 <mlefranc> +1
21:12:39 <roba> +1
21:12:41 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
21:12:42 <phila_car> +1
21:12:57 <roba> s/dsicussed/discussed/
21:13:08 <ClausStadler> ClausStadler has joined #sdwssn
21:13:30 <roba> ahaller2: commit ot git?
21:13:40 <ahaller2> s/ot/to
21:13:41 <kerry_> s/ot/to/
21:13:50 <roba> SimonCox: in wiki ready top drop in when appropriate
21:14:01 <SimonCox> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Alignment_to_O%26M
21:14:28 <KJanowic> q+
21:14:33 <kerry_> q+
21:14:34 <ClausStadler> present+ ClausStadler
21:14:34 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
21:14:48 <RaulGarciaCastro> RaulGarciaCastro has joined #sdwssn
21:15:34 <roba> KJanowic: multiple edits to wiki is hard to track - can we discuss on email and one person edit?
21:15:35 <mlefranc> q+
21:16:43 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:16:43 <roba> ...specifically when options are being edited, emnail discussion can be made ambiguous
21:17:05 <ahaller2> s/emnail/email
21:17:31 <KJanowic> fine with me
21:17:49 <roba> kerry_: lots of stuff on email - comments fragment and get lost - wiki capture is better - proposes comments wiki page if in-line comments a problem
21:18:01 <KJanowic> (I never suggested that)
21:18:13 <roba> agree with kerry - wiki style, email is too hard to folloow current state
21:18:28 <mlefranc> q?
21:18:48 <ahaller2> ack mlefranc
21:19:31 <roba> @ahaller 2 do you want to propose a way or do i need to capture those rtecommendations?
21:20:08 <kerry_> +1
21:21:08 <SimonCox> roba: then you need to write "RESOLVED:" afterwards
21:21:17 <kerry_> q+
21:21:17 <roba> PROPOSED: That options are not changed in substance on the wiki, and new options provided if needed
21:21:26 <ahaller2> +1
21:21:27 <KJanowic> +1
21:21:28 <mlefranc> +1
21:21:33 <kerry_> +1
21:21:33 <roba> +1
21:21:40 <SimonCox> +1
21:21:41 <ahaller2> q?
21:21:47 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:21:54 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
21:22:00 <ClausStadler> +1
21:22:13 <Raul> Raul has joined #sdwssn
21:22:26 <ahaller2> q?
21:22:33 <roba> kerry_: please link pages in so they can be found
21:22:33 <mlefranc> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Main_Page -> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Semantic_Sensor_Network_Ontology
21:22:35 <ahaller2> topic: SOSA pattern for Observation and Value: remove hasValue, keep class Result as of Option 3 on wiki: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/
21:23:02 <SimonCox> Its linked from here: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Semantic_Sensor_Network_Ontology
21:23:08 <ahaller2> q?
21:23:28 <KJanowic> Can you post the link
21:23:38 <ahaller2> SOSA pattern for Observation and Value: remove hasValue, keep class Result as of Option 3 on wiki: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Storing_Observation_Value#Option_3:_SOSA_pattern_for_Observation_and_Value:_remove_hasValue.2C_keep_class_Result  https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/90
21:24:00 <ahaller2> q?
21:24:07 <kerry_> q+
21:24:13 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:24:13 <KJanowic> q+
21:24:38 <mlefranc> q+
21:25:11 <roba> kerry_: the discussion is not complete enough yet - e.g. how oldSSN can be transitioned to model
21:25:24 <kerry_> q+
21:26:18 <KJanowic> q?
21:26:49 <roba> ...deprrecating classes without working out how the alignment would work is a "cop-out"
21:27:00 <KJanowic> q?
21:27:09 <roba> s/deprrecating/deprecating/
21:27:21 <roba> ahller2: so object to voting on this today?
21:27:29 <KJanowic> q+
21:27:45 <roba> kerry_: depends on the wording on the proposal
21:27:53 <KJanowic> other people would like to speak too
21:28:14 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
21:28:17 <roba> ...have mentioned these issues on list
21:29:16 <ahaller2> ack mlefranc
21:29:57 <roba> KJanowic: option 3 does not allow simple SOSA to refer to the value - would prefer a new(?) option 5
21:30:15 <KJanowic> I am fine with option 3 but 5 would allow sosa users to directly publish observation values without having to learn how to do this with the help of other ontologies (which is important for sosa users)
21:30:18 <laurent_oz> laurent_oz has joined #sdwssn
21:30:30 <KJanowic> @roba: it would be option 5 (as is)
21:30:31 <ahaller2> q?
21:30:32 <roba> mlefranc: preferes to vote today - find some common ground
21:30:32 <KJanowic> q+
21:30:34 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:30:51 <phila_car> q+
21:31:06 <SimonCox> q+
21:31:08 <roba> @KJanowic thanks for clarifying
21:31:09 <KJanowic> +1 to voting today, we have been putting issues aside for months
21:32:26 <KJanowic> I agree with ahaller2 (on results)
21:32:30 <ahaller2> q?
21:32:34 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
21:32:44 <RaulGarciaCastro> Today we can vote on selecting one of the options, but we cannot decide on the concrete implementations because they are incomplete
21:32:59 <SimonCox> potential PROPOSAL: Actuation + Actuator shall be included in SOSA
21:33:40 <ahaller2> q?
21:33:57 <ahaller2> ack phila_car
21:34:04 <kerry_> I am proposing that in option 3 we change 'result" back to "observedvalue"
21:34:28 <ahaller2> q?
21:34:33 <ahaller2> ack SimonCox
21:34:34 <phila_car> I wanted to say it sounds as if there is consensus on moving forward but that Kerry still has concerns
21:34:53 <phila_car> OK, so vote to move forward but invite kerry to come back with specific modifications after the vot
21:34:59 <KJanowic> +1 to simon (on keeping result)
21:35:16 <KJanowic> q+
21:35:22 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
21:35:38 <kerry_> q+
21:35:39 <roba> SimonCox: result of actuation or sample not an "ObservationValue"
21:35:57 <roba> q+
21:36:00 <mlefranc> q+
21:36:05 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:36:42 <roba> kerry_: notes SensorML uses ObservationValue terminology
21:36:46 <KJanowic> option 5 is option 3 + a direct way for sosa users to assign values to observations which is very important. We can also change the hasValue name if this is the only problem
21:38:03 <ahaller2> q?
21:38:06 <phila_car> q+
21:38:35 <SimonCox> Yes - Kerry does have a point, superclass Result conflates several rather different concepts (including 'Sample' which is the outcome of a sampling activity)
21:39:31 <ahaller2> roba: Option 5 has a number of TODOs and question marks. If I do an actuation, I get a result back, which includes the observed value, for example, it is "on now"
21:39:37 <KJanowic> q+
21:39:44 <ahaller2> ack roba
21:40:28 <phila_car> ack kj
21:40:58 <ahaller2> q?
21:41:09 <ahaller2> ack mlefranc
21:41:17 <KJanowic> Yes +1 on that
21:41:32 <KJanowic> I like this idea!
21:41:33 <roba> Kjanowic: have not yet considerd actuation - may needs broadeing as Option 5
21:41:54 <KJanowic> q+
21:42:02 <KJanowic> I would be pretty unhappy with option 4
21:42:08 <phila_car> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:42:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/14-sdwssn-minutes.html phila_car
21:42:21 <ClausStadler> an actuation result seems to me more like the return value of a function invocation - if i say: rotate some component by 45 degree, the result may be a pointer (URI) to a sequence of observations being made as the action runs.
21:42:39 <ahaller2> ack phila_car
21:42:39 <KJanowic> q+
21:43:27 <KJanowic> +1 to having a vote and keep improving!
21:43:41 <roba> phila: good conversation about technical details - urges some sort of vote to demonstrate progres - can amend later if needed
21:43:41 <mlefranc> +1
21:43:48 <laurent_oz> +1
21:43:59 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
21:44:00 <laurent_oz> present+
21:44:47 <KJanowic> IMHO, too general
21:45:06 <KJanowic> option 4 is like voting on almost nothing, let's be brave ;-)
21:45:06 <ahaller2> PROPOSED: SOSA pattern for Observation and Value: remove hasValue, keep class Result as of Option 3 on wiki: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Storing_Observation_Value#Option_3:_SOSA_pattern_for_Observation_and_Value:_remove_hasValue.2C_keep_class_Result , pending a modelling decision on isProducedBy, and a decision on how to attach values in SOSA
21:45:07 <mlefranc> can me further specialized
21:45:18 <KJanowic> +1
21:45:27 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
21:46:04 <KJanowic> q+ (let us keep 'result')
21:46:14 <KJanowic> q+
21:46:27 <KJanowic> than do :-)
21:46:43 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
21:46:49 <kerry_> q+ to not claus'es remark
21:46:58 <kerry_> s/not/note/
21:47:07 <SimonCox> +1
21:47:07 <mlefranc> PROPOSED: SOSA patter for observation and value: do not vote about "hasValue" yet, keep some class, name it Result for now, nearly as of option 3 in wiki
21:47:11 <mlefranc> +1
21:47:14 <roba> +0
21:47:29 <KJanowic> q+
21:48:01 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:48:01 <Zakim> kerry_, you wanted to not claus'es remark
21:48:04 <KJanowic> I would not like this idea, this is like voting on nothing
21:48:46 <mlefranc> q+
21:48:50 <KJanowic> it is, for example, a change of state
21:48:51 <SimonCox> What is the result of an actuation? See RobA emails on list
21:48:52 <roba> kerry_: ref ClausStadler comment - what is an actuation result? Lack of discussion about this
21:49:11 <ClausStadler> q+
21:49:14 <KJanowic> we are going in circles again
21:49:23 <ahaller2_> ahaller2_ has joined #sdwssn
21:49:26 <roba> Thats why i voted +0 - wasnt 100% sure the model was completely described
21:49:30 <SimonCox> q
21:49:32 <SimonCox> q
21:49:35 <roba> q?
21:49:36 <SimonCox> q?
21:49:38 <KJanowic> q?
21:50:02 <ahaller2_> q?
21:50:09 <ahaller2_> q?
21:50:10 <KJanowic> +1 to that
21:50:13 <roba> phila: is actuation result just a followon issue? OK to vote,
21:50:13 <mlefranc> +1
21:50:32 <mlefranc> ok
21:50:36 <mlefranc> q-
21:50:37 <KJanowic> q+
21:50:39 <roba> +1 to that. We need treatment of consequences now, and then revisit if needed
21:50:50 <ahaller2_> PROPOSED: SOSA pattern for Observation and Value: remove hasValue, keep class Result as of Option 3 on wiki: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Storing_Observation_Value#Option_3:_SOSA_pattern_for_Observation_and_Value:_remove_hasValue.2C_keep_class_Result
21:50:53 <KJanowic> +1
21:50:53 <mlefranc> +1
21:50:57 <roba> +1
21:50:58 <SimonCox> +1
21:50:58 <ahaller2_> +1
21:51:00 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
21:51:03 <KJanowic> q-
21:51:04 <Raul> +1
21:51:09 <kerry_> 0
21:51:18 <laurent_oz> 0
21:51:28 <ClausStadler> q-
21:51:28 <mlefranc> action ?
21:51:34 <KJanowic> great, can we brielfy talk about the actuation part?
21:51:39 <ahaller2_> q?
21:51:53 <roba> ahller2: agenda next meeting to include followup options and descriptions
21:52:01 <ahaller2_> topic: Include Actuation, ActuableProperty and Actuator class with associated relations (invokedBy, actuatedProperty) in SOSA as of proposal on wiki: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Actuation_in_SOSA
21:52:03 <KJanowic> q+
21:52:13 <ahaller2_> ack KJanowic
21:53:34 <roba> KJanowic: describes proposal on wiki.
21:53:38 <roba> q+
21:53:59 <ahaller2_> q?
21:54:40 <ahaller2_> ack roba
21:54:44 <kerry_> q+
21:55:06 <SimonCox> Window example: window has a property "open" with boolean value.
21:55:15 <mlefranc> (apparently I accidentally deleted all my edits in the wiki. please refresh your browser now)
21:55:16 <ahaller2_> roba: actuableproperty is promoted to be a special case in this option
21:55:17 <KJanowic> we do have observableproperty
21:55:24 <SimonCox> Actuation changes the value of this property from "true" to "false"
21:55:40 <mlefranc> q+
21:55:45 <ahaller2_> q?
21:55:54 <KJanowic> no it has these axioms
21:55:56 <SimonCox> Note also distinction between ActuableProperty and actuatedProperty - nice!
21:56:33 <SimonCox> q+
21:56:41 <laurent_oz> We worked on this topic at the time of the XG, check this post on the mailing list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-ssn/2010Feb/0002.html (please have a look)
21:56:59 <KJanowic> I will add the axioms and options
21:57:08 <KJanowic> we can discuss this next week
21:57:30 <ahaller2_> q?
21:57:31 <SimonCox> ... and I will work up Sampling equivalent
21:57:44 <KJanowic> @ahaller2_ I will add the code and options for next week's discussion
21:57:47 <ahaller2_> ack kerry
21:58:30 <roba> KJanowic: confirms q from roba that its just the diagram incomplete - not representing the full proposed model here,
21:59:07 <roba> kerry_: seems reasonable - can we apply Use Cases to this pattern now to make sure we understand it
21:59:36 <KJanowic> will do so
21:59:56 <ahaller2_> ack mlefranc
22:00:03 <SimonCox> q-
22:00:25 <RaulGarciaCastro> In the WoT group they are defining as interaction patterns Properties and Actions (also events but these are not fix yet (https://w3c.github.io/wot/current-practices/wot-practices.html#interaction-patterns)
22:00:53 <KJanowic> [I cannot hear maxime]
22:01:20 <mlefranc> I like the idea that actuation and actuator is in sosa
22:01:39 <KJanowic> q+
22:02:07 <roba> mlefranc: reservations about names, but would like to vote to accept concept of actuation in SOSA
22:02:19 <KJanowic> q-
22:02:31 <KJanowic> I will
22:02:52 <ahaller2_> q?
22:03:11 <roba> ahller2: asks for wiki to be updated with options to vote on next week
22:03:15 <mlefranc> I like the idea that we just mimic the observation/sensor/sensing for actuation/acutator/actuating, and limit the number of new terms
22:03:18 <SimonCox> Bye
22:03:19 <KJanowic> thanks for the productive telco today
22:03:22 <KJanowic> bye bye
22:03:23 <mlefranc> thans
22:03:27 <roba> bye all
22:03:43 <RaulGarciaCastro> Bye!
22:04:16 <kerry_> rrsagent, make logs public
22:04:23 <kerry_> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:04:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/14-sdwssn-minutes.html kerry_
22:04:27 <ahaller2_> RRSAgent, make logs public
22:04:31 <kerry_> bye!
22:04:34 <ahaller2_> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:04:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/14-sdwssn-minutes.html ahaller2_