15:59:09 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:59:09 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/02/09-tt-irc 15:59:11 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:59:11 Zakim has joined #tt 15:59:13 Zakim, this will be TTML 15:59:13 ok, trackbot 15:59:14 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:59:14 Date: 09 February 2017 15:59:18 chair: Nigel 15:59:21 Present: Glenn, Nigel 15:59:24 Regrets: Mike 15:59:28 scribe: nigel 16:02:41 Topic: This meeting 16:03:32 Regrets+ Andreas 16:04:28 Present+ Pierre, Thierry 16:04:55 present+ 16:06:18 Nigel: Today we have IMSC 1.0.1 and TTML issues. Any other business? 16:06:45 Pierre: I would like to review our progress against goals for TTML2, issues closed etc. 16:06:56 .. I would like to check we are still on target and see if there are any blockers. 16:07:11 group: No other business 16:07:16 Topic: IMSC 16:08:53 nigel: Since we last met we have published the FPWD of IMSC 1.0.1 with a new short name. 16:09:13 .. The old link now redirects to the FPWD which has a link to the Rec. 16:11:31 Thierry: The publication was a bit chaotic because the original agreement to use the same 16:12:38 .. short name was in fact not possible and the web master refused it. 16:13:02 nigel: My concern is that anyone using the /TR/ttml-imsc1/ link no longer gets to the Rec 16:15:52 .. but now goes to the FPWD. To link to the Rec we now have a special dated link. 16:16:18 .. I would propose that we remove the redirect from ttml-imsc1 to 1.0.1 and reinstate it when 16:16:26 .. we have published 1.0.1 as a Rec. 16:16:30 Pierre: That works for me. 16:17:24 Thierry: I can ask for that. I propose to add something: 16:17:59 .. 1. Undo the link from ttml-imsc1 to ttm-imsc1.0.1 16:18:07 .. 2. Remove the Latest Rec link from 1.0.1 16:18:13 Nigel: No we should keep that 16:18:16 Pierre: That's always useful. 16:18:43 Thierry: We could also change the name separately from the short name, but that would be confusing. 16:20:03 Glenn: No they need to be connected together. I do object to using 1.0.1. 16:21:39 Thierry: We had that conversation Glenn, I think you were not present. 16:21:48 Glenn: I did get my comment in within the Decision Policy review period. 16:22:46 s/ttm-imsc/ttml-imsc 16:23:17 nigel: So just to confirm Thierry will ask to remove the redirect from ttml-imsc1 to ttml-imsc1.0.1 for now, and then when we have published 1.0.1 as a Rec reinstate it. 16:25:23 Pierre: Is this the Wide Review version? 16:25:25 nigel: It can be. 16:25:42 Thierry: If you want to add a date for Wide Review we can publish an updated WD as soon as we like. 16:28:12 Pierre: So we need to add a deadline to the comments and request specific review of the 16:28:15 .. added features. 16:28:29 Thierry: I would name those features. 16:28:46 Pierre: Yes of course. Should I also add those to the SOTD? 16:28:50 Thierry: I think so. 16:29:04 nigel: We should deal with the typo in pull request 16:29:07 => https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/207 16:29:12 nigel: while we are doing a change. 16:29:18 Pierre: Looks good to me. 16:30:21 Nigel: I can send liaisons out requesting wide review to the usual suspects, probably not 16:30:30 .. until early next week. I will draft the text and circulate it. 16:30:55 Thierry: I will take care of the internal W3C horizontal review requests. 16:31:02 Nigel: Great, thanks that's a good division of labour! 16:31:52 Pierre: In that pull request I factor out the file as external to make it easier. 16:31:57 Nigel: Does that mean you can validate too? 16:32:01 Pierre: Yes exactly! 16:32:38 Nigel: We don't have an updated schema for 1.0.1 do we? 16:32:48 Pierre: That's a really good point! Thanks for reminding me, please can you file an issue? 16:33:53 Nigel: done: 16:33:55 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/208 16:35:40 Nigel: For a SOTD review deadline I'd propose Friday 31st March. 16:35:44 Pierre: Works for me. 16:36:31 Nigel: To summarise the actions: 16:36:45 .. NM to draft external liaison message; 16:36:55 .. PAL to update WD 16:37:06 .. TM to initiate Horizontal Review 16:37:15 .. TM to request temporary removal of redirect 16:38:12 .. PAL to propose a fix for the schema issue 16:38:33 Topic: TTML 16:40:26 Nigel: We have total 67 issues open on TTML2, of which one is marked as for TTML.next 16:40:36 .. 6 issues were closed this week. 16:41:35 .. We said that we would have a WD out by end of March, so how are we doing Glenn? 16:41:51 Glenn: Given my schedule I'm confident we will make that and there are going to be slews 16:42:05 .. of updates over the next couple of weeks. It will depend also on how much conversation 16:42:17 .. we need to close these before we're ready to call them ready for a WR draft. 16:42:42 .. I'm hoping we don't have too many new issues filed. 16:43:17 Pierre: We set ourselves a self-imposed deadline of Feb 15 for new feature requests - are 16:43:20 .. we sticking to that? 16:43:31 Glenn: Yes, unless to resolve an issue we need new features. 16:43:40 Pierre: I think any feature requests after Feb 15 we would defer. 16:43:57 Glenn: I agree. I don't have anything on my list that would fit into the category of a new feature. 16:44:03 Nigel: That works for me. 16:44:16 Pierre: Then in order to get consensus at the end of March we need all the PRs done 2 weeks 16:44:30 .. before the end of March to give us 2 weeks to accept all the PRs. 16:44:40 Glenn: That's a good goal that I'll endeavour to achieve. 16:45:30 Nigel: It's going to be a big review task - a good one, but a big one - so if we are later than this then we should delay WR publication. 16:45:59 Pierre: Just to be clear, it won't be acceptable to me if we want to publish a WR draft only a short period 16:46:04 .. after the PR has been merged. 16:47:04 Glenn: In that case I will try only to push editorial changes out beyond the deadline rather than substantive things. 16:47:21 .. If there are any controversial issues please could you let me know so I can give more time for review? 16:47:37 Nigel: Just one from me - the Audio Description features are a departure, so we should 16:47:57 .. aim to do those sooner if possible. I also have a presentation at CSUN at the beginning of 16:48:07 .. March during which I would love to be able to reference a document. 16:48:12 Glenn: I aim to do that next week. 16:49:15 .. Regarding HDR, do you anticipate any changes? 16:50:12 Nigel: Setting a cd/m2 level is controversial - we should talk about that. 16:50:18 Pierre: Happy to discuss that. 16:50:30 Nigel: Okay let me get the right people in the room - I'm not trying to exclude the proposal 16:50:43 .. where it's needed, but to ensure that for all HDR schemes we have a working solution. 16:52:54 Nigel: Okay that's planning stuff done, any issues or pull requests that anyone wants to discuss? 16:53:18 Pierre: I'd like to go back to textEmphasis and the Mongolian script divergence. 16:53:34 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/240 16:54:13 Glenn: There's no technical issue here - it's just a matter of tokens not semantics. 16:54:41 Pierre: So if I look at before and after and compare them to over and under there is a 1:1 mapping? 16:54:48 Glenn: It depends on writing mode. 16:55:22 .. I had a question about text orientation and whether it is sensitive to that, and I convinced 16:55:35 .. myself that it is not, and is only dependent on writing mode. 16:56:33 .. Also I do not have enough context to answer the question - it's important to know if we are 16:57:00 .. talking about vertical text embedded in horizontal text in an inline block, or just vertical 16:57:14 .. Mongolian. I also am not aware of any use of text emphasis in Mongolian. 16:57:45 .. Most Mongolian writing is in Cyrillic; there are some usages in Inner Mongolia where 16:58:06 .. it is written with Chinese, but generally Mongolian vertical script is not very common. 16:58:38 Pierre: I'm concerned that Elika thinks that the CSS system is different, and want to check that they do in fact align. 16:58:58 Glenn: We might defer this to TTML.next in case some substantive point is uncovered. 16:59:21 Pierre: Moving on, the auto value for text emphasis is not supported in CSS. Elika stated 16:59:43 .. that's never going to happen in CSS, and I pointed out that it could be used for captions 16:59:57 .. so she asked for some examples and use cases. Either we should point that out or consider 17:00:06 .. excluding it from TTML2 or removing it as the default. 17:00:21 Glenn: "auto" came up when we introduced "outside", and that turned out to be the default 17:00:51 .. scenario in the popular Japanese subtitling system. It only really applies if there are two 17:01:07 .. lines so I had to come up with semantics for 1 line or >2 lines. That's where that came from. 17:01:37 Pierre: The problem is the way "outside" is specified it applies a different semantic depending 17:01:51 .. on the number of lines and whether it is the first or last line. In CSS it's really awkward to 17:02:02 .. do that because you have to figure out where the line breaks are. 17:02:19 Glenn: I agree you have to discover where the line breaks are and treat each line separately. 17:02:31 .. The fact that TTML2 and CSS differ is not a problem per se. 17:02:54 Pierre: It is for Movielabs - it will generate an objection unless there's a fallback or if there's 17:03:17 .. an issue filed on CSS. The door is open to provide the use cases and file an issue or specify the fallback. 17:03:39 Glenn: I don't see a problem with doing both. 17:04:37 .. We haven't got consensus that CSS mapping is mandatory. 17:04:58 Pierre: Folks interested in IMSC 2 are very interested in the mapping to HTML and CSS and that's really important to MovieLabs. 17:05:08 Glenn: Would you be open to defining the fallback in IMSC 2? 17:05:23 Pierre: Absolutely, that sounds like the right place to do it, but we have a catch-22 here 17:05:28 .. because we're working on both in parallel. 17:05:52 Glenn: We have some fallbacks in TTML and IMSC already. We don't have any CSS fallbacks though. 17:06:07 .. Opening that door could be problematic because it might require treating everything in TTML2 17:06:13 .. with a formal mapping to CSS. 17:06:30 Pierre: I don't disagree with that, I'm just concerned that after TTML2 is in CR we find a 17:06:47 .. fundamental issue in defining a fallback for IMSC 2 so I'd like to keep track of the fallback 17:07:30 .. while we are working on them both. 17:11:13 Nigel: By the way, if we need to be normatively dependent on CSS we will be stuck for a while 17:11:24 .. until all the relevant CSS specs have reached Rec. 17:12:42 Pierre: I just wanted to make clear that this is really important for Movielabs. 17:12:53 Nigel: Ok we're out of time, we have some actions and discussions to have offline and 17:13:12 .. will be back here on the phone next week. Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting] 17:13:15 rrsagent, make minutes 17:13:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/09-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:24:32 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 17:24:33 rrsagent, make minutes 17:24:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/09-tt-minutes.html nigel 18:15:51 Zakim has left #tt