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12:19:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/02/06-poe-irc
12:19:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:19:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
12:19:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
12:19:50 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
12:19:50 <trackbot> Date: 06 February 2017
12:19:56 <renato> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:20:07 <renato> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170206
12:20:17 <renato> present+ renato
12:20:22 <renato> chair: ben
12:26:11 <ivan> present+
12:26:20 <Serena> Serena has joined #poe
12:30:33 <simonstey> present+
12:30:54 <renato> regrets: Caroline
12:31:34 <simonstey> regrets: Sabrina
12:31:39 <Serena> present+
12:32:36 <Brian_Ulicny> Brian_Ulicny has joined #poe
12:32:39 <renato> regrets: michael
12:32:40 <Brian_Ulicny> present+
12:33:25 <victor> victor has joined #poe
12:33:30 <victor> present+ victor
12:33:32 <phila> present+
12:34:27 <victor> [I am amidst a flu process and I'd rather not to scribe]
12:35:30 <phila> scribe: Brian_Ulicny
12:35:35 <phila> scribeNick: Brian_Ulicny
12:35:36 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2017/01/30-poe-minutes.html
12:35:44 <phila> Topic: Last week's minutes
12:35:53 <Brian_Ulicny> Agenda item 1: Everyone okay to approve last week's minutes?
12:35:59 <benws_> benws_ has joined #poe
12:36:03 <victor> +1
12:36:07 <Serena> +1
12:36:13 <Brian_Ulicny> The URL in the minutes is incorrect.  Noted.  1 week off.
12:36:19 <phila> I'll fix that error, no probs
12:36:32 <Brian_Ulicny> Minutes approved.
12:37:25 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/98
12:37:48 <Brian_Ulicny> Discussion on: "IsNecessaryFor" operator.
12:38:01 <Brian_Ulicny> Now referred to as an "and sequence"
12:38:43 <Brian_Ulicny> A comment was added that this and sequence primarily is intended for temporal expressions.
12:38:50 <Brian_Ulicny> Implementations need to be aware of this.
12:39:25 <Brian_Ulicny> Information model was tidied a bit.
12:39:32 <Brian_Ulicny> Any comments on the changes?
12:40:27 <Brian_Ulicny> Question for Simon: Are any of the issues serious holdups?
12:40:54 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon: "Apologies for handwriting.  Two things need to be addressed."
12:41:23 <Brian_Ulicny> "Whenever there is a list of attributes with an inconsistency between the attributes listed and properties available."
12:42:35 <Brian_Ulicny> "Would assume to have target property, not asset for permission"
12:42:52 <Brian_Ulicny> "I would like to have this addressed."
12:43:25 <benws_> present+
12:43:31 <benws_> q?
12:43:51 <Brian_Ulicny> "second issue: non-normative attributes"
12:44:12 <Brian_Ulicny> "Which stuff is normative, and which isn't?"
12:45:08 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "permission list of asset and party are used in the xml directly."
12:45:29 <Brian_Ulicny> "written in the days when XML was the only representation"
12:46:26 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon: "the same style of listing attributes and relations (the same in RDF), ..."
12:46:46 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "we can look at the use of the word 'relation' here"
12:47:01 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon: "Why do I need to have asset explicitly mentioned here?"
12:47:28 <Brian_Ulicny> "How do I link to that asset explicitly?"
12:48:47 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "Let's say the permissioned entity has the following attributes..."
12:49:40 <benws_> q+
12:50:07 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon: "Let's move target up from generic relation"
12:51:07 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon: "let's get rid of capital letter"
12:52:03 <Brian_Ulicny> "Party has a relation that points to something of type Party"
12:52:14 <Brian_Ulicny> (not sure I got that right)
12:53:11 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "returning to and sequence predicate, the temporal context is a subset of the complex constraints we want to cover"
12:53:31 <renato> https://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/#term-andSequence
12:53:55 <Brian_Ulicny> "Should we say both constraints must be met rather than the left constraint must be met before the right"
12:54:25 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "if you remove the sequence, then it is just an and operator"
12:54:40 <Brian_Ulicny> "not qualifying then"
12:54:59 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "in payment, the unit qualifies the amount to be paid"
12:55:49 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "can we still express embargo without a temporal order? I don't know the answer."
12:56:22 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "embargo use case is different then 30 minutes after match"
12:56:28 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "Is it?"
12:57:37 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "if we step away from how the processor will implement it, we can avoid the temporal aspect.  Not our concern."
12:58:25 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "How can we do unit of currency without additional constraints?"
12:59:03 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "the unit doesn't constrain.  Really just an and"
12:59:55 <Brian_Ulicny> REnato: "you could have a constraint amount constrained by 10 and another constraint currency AUD so you get 10AUD"
13:01:04 <simonstey> as for time constraints, I still think we should just use http://w3c.github.io/sdw/time/#time:TemporalEntity
13:01:05 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "you are compensating me in both a quantity and currency"
13:02:10 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "Could we change wording to remove temporal ordering?"
13:03:03 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon: "without temporal ordering, for 30 minutes after, the constraint is trivially fulfilled after 30 minutes"
13:03:36 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:03:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/06-poe-minutes.html phila
13:04:19 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "we need to point to a temporal entity, not just a datetime"
13:04:47 <phila> regrets+ Caroline
13:05:23 <benws_> q?
13:05:28 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "Brian, can't you do this in SPARQL?"
13:05:33 <benws_> ack b
13:05:49 <Brian_Ulicny> Brian: "we need to work through example.  Didn't have chance last week"
13:06:22 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "What else do we want to bring up from model document?"
13:06:50 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "Can we bring draft to meeting next week?"
13:07:18 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon: "How about before meeting, so we have chance to read?"
13:07:31 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "let's move on to vocab expression doc"
13:07:46 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "outstanding issue is context"
13:08:02 <Brian_Ulicny> "We want to create a JSON-LD context for this."
13:08:09 <phila> q+
13:08:14 <simonstey> +q
13:08:20 <Brian_Ulicny> "need this before working draft."
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13:09:02 <Brian_Ulicny> "Need to find someone who knows JSON-LD."
13:09:52 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "if we can get JSON-LD context done, we can vote on the doc"
13:09:56 <benws_> q?
13:09:58 <phila> q?
13:10:01 <ivan> q+
13:10:32 <smyles> present+
13:10:37 <phila> -> http://json-ld.org/playground/ Playground
13:10:38 <Brian_Ulicny> Phil: "there's no valid JSON-LD example in the docs."
13:10:52 <renato> ODRL JSON-LD context freelancing: https://www.upwork.com/job/Create-JSON-Context-Definition-for-ODRL_~0156ff5fdb318c478f/
13:11:18 <Brian_Ulicny> Ivan: "without a context file, the JSON-LD will not be valid"
13:11:20 <renato> Make $$ fast ;-)
13:12:17 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon: "example 14 has a column missing after target"
13:12:23 <benws_> q?
13:12:39 <benws_> ack p
13:12:45 <smyles> q+
13:12:46 <ivan> q-
13:12:48 <renato>    "action": "odrl:display"
13:12:48 <benws_> ack s
13:13:13 <benws_> ack sim
13:13:18 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon: "why do we need namespace for odrl:display?"
13:13:30 <smyles> q+
13:13:34 <simonstey>  "action": "odrl:print"
13:13:38 <Brian_Ulicny> Ivan: "not necessary for what we would call object properties"
13:14:00 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon: "typo in example 14"
13:14:02 <phila> q?
13:14:04 <benws_> q?
13:14:26 <Brian_Ulicny> Stewart: "discussing posting?"
13:14:36 <Brian_Ulicny> "is someone going to do the work?"
13:14:52 <Brian_Ulicny> "no one has applied"
13:15:10 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "Do we know a JSON-LD expert?"
13:15:51 <Brian_Ulicny> Phil: "I should just tweet a link to the post"
13:16:08 <benws_> q?
13:16:14 <benws_> ack sm
13:16:24 <phila> s/should just tweet/have just tweeted/
13:16:37 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "wide review campaign"
13:17:05 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "we need to track who sent what to whom, responses, etc.  Need a wiki page."
13:17:14 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "what was the hit rate?
13:17:36 <Brian_Ulicny> Phil: "hit rate was not high.  More important for director to see that you tried."
13:17:47 <Brian_Ulicny> Ivan: "it is unpredictable."
13:18:04 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Deliverables
13:18:07 <benws_> q?
13:18:27 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "we need to have enough people listed."
13:19:05 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "a number of W3C people said they'd follow when we were chartered.  Let's follow up with them, if we can find the list."
13:19:46 <benws_> q?
13:20:00 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "how far off are we from publishable use case requirements doc?"
13:20:18 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon: "can have for next meeting."
13:20:41 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "would be nice if we could publish vocab, use cases and info model at same time."
13:21:06 <Brian_Ulicny> REnato: "def two weeks, given JSON-LD issue"
13:21:22 <benws_> q?
13:21:33 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "Ok, let's aim for two weeks."
13:21:56 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "semantics doc?"
13:22:25 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "let's start actively working on that in 2 weeks."
13:23:00 <Brian_Ulicny> Victor: "we plan to submit doc in next week"
13:23:15 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon, Sabrina, Victor are editors of the formal semantics doc.
13:23:34 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "are we all pretty happy with timing of semantics doc"
13:24:25 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "model is stabilized enough to make a first pass"
13:24:43 <renato> http://w3c.github.io/poe/bp/
13:24:50 <simonstey> +q
13:24:56 <phila> q+ to talk about AC review results
13:25:13 <Brian_Ulicny> Victor: "we can start on best practices doc"
13:25:36 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "I will start laying out examples for best practices."
13:26:13 <Brian_Ulicny> Renato: "James Birmingham will be another useful editor"
13:26:29 <Brian_Ulicny> "they are doing technical examples using ODRL"
13:26:38 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "what about paul jessup?"
13:26:57 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "moving on, other business?"
13:26:58 <benws_> q?
13:27:04 <phila> ack simonstey
13:27:32 <Brian_Ulicny> Simon: "is the ontology a different doc than the vocabulary?  are they both recommendations?"
13:28:42 <Brian_Ulicny> Phil: "the formal publications appear in 'tr space'.  Can't touch.  That's not the same as the namespace document, which is a list of terms, autogenerated.  Treated differently."
13:28:59 <Brian_Ulicny> "the ns doc can be edited sensiblly"
13:29:21 <Brian_Ulicny> Phil: "how many can see the AC review?"
13:30:05 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/PandOE/results AC Review results (member linbk)
13:30:14 <Brian_Ulicny> Ben: "running short on time.  is there anything on London f2f?"
13:30:14 <phila> s/linbk/link
13:30:46 <Brian_Ulicny> please notify via wiki if you plan to attend.  At TR London.
13:30:50 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:London2017 Please add your name/regrets here
13:30:54 <victor> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:London2017
13:31:01 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:31:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/06-poe-minutes.html phila
13:31:05 <benws_> q?
13:31:13 <phila> q-
13:31:19 <Brian_Ulicny> Thanks!
13:31:24 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:31:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/06-poe-minutes.html phila
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