13:00:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
13:00:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/02/01-shapes-irc
13:00:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
13:00:55 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
13:00:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
13:00:57 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
13:00:58 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
13:00:58 <trackbot> Date: 01 February 2017
13:01:14 <hknublau> present+
13:01:36 <Nicky> present+
13:02:22 <ipolikoff> present
13:03:25 <hknublau> chair: ipolikoff
13:03:40 <ipolikoff> present+
13:03:41 <Dimitris> present+
13:06:28 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #shapes
13:07:11 <pano> pano has joined #shapes
13:08:43 <pano> https://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html
13:09:05 <ipolikoff> scribenick: Nicky
13:09:30 <Nicky> ipolokoff: Opens the meeting
13:09:31 <ipolikoff> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 25 Jan 2017 Telecon: https://www.w3.org/2017/01/25-shapes-minutes.html
13:10:04 <hknublau> +1
13:10:06 <TallTed> present+
13:10:06 <Nicky> +1
13:10:14 <Dimitris> +1
13:10:14 <pano> present+
13:10:16 <pano> +1
13:10:19 <ipolikoff> RESOLUTION: Approve minutes of the 25 Jan 2017 Telecon: https://www.w3.org/2017/01/25-shapes-minutes.html
13:10:46 <Nicky> ipolikoff: Three issues opened since last meeting
13:10:49 <ipolikoff> ISSUE-220: defining shapes in a shapes graph
13:10:49 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-220 defining shapes in a shapes graph.
13:11:22 <ipolikoff> PROPOSAL: OPEN ISSIUE-220
13:11:30 <Dimitris> +1
13:11:31 <hknublau> +1
13:11:37 <pano> +1
13:11:50 <ipolikoff> RESOLUTION: OPEN ISSIUE-220
13:12:35 <Nicky> hknublau: proposal to close it, because the definition has been formilised already
13:12:42 <ipolikoff> PROPOSAL: CLOSE ISSIUE-220 as addressed in section 2.1
13:12:56 <hknublau> +1
13:12:57 <Dimitris> +1
13:13:04 <Nicky> +1
13:13:31 <ipolikoff> PROPOSAL: CLOSE ISSUE-220 as addressed in section 2.1
13:13:34 <TallTed> s/RESOLUTION/RESOLVED/
13:14:23 <ipolikoff> RESOLUTION: CLOSE ISSUE-220 as addressed in section 2.1 http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#shapes
13:15:02 <TallTed> +1
13:15:10 <TallTed> s/RESOLUTION/RESOLVED/
13:15:20 <ipolikoff> ISSUE-221: Simplify the class hierarchy of shapes
13:15:20 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-221 Simplify the class hierarchy of shapes.
13:15:30 <TallTed> issue-221?
13:15:30 <trackbot> issue-221 -- Simplify the class hierarchy of shapes -- raised
13:15:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/221
13:15:36 <hknublau> q+
13:15:56 <ipolikoff> PROPOSAL: ISSUE-221
13:16:17 <ipolikoff> PROPOSAL: OPEN ISSUE-221
13:16:31 <Nicky> hknublau: Question: we can close this one and open 211, since these are related
13:17:15 <Nicky> Dimitris: Does it make a difference if we do it via 211?
13:17:59 <Nicky> hknublau: We should do it via 211, since if we revisite one part we should reviste through the whole issue
13:18:54 <hknublau> 0
13:18:55 <TallTed> +1 open 221
13:19:20 <Dimitris> 0 it makes no difference with which issue we track it with
13:19:34 <ipolikoff> +1
13:19:36 <pano> +0.5
13:19:42 <Nicky> ipolikoff: I think that it is clean to open issue 211, since there already has been a chain of emails about 211.
13:19:59 <ipolikoff> RESOLUTION: OPEN ISSUE-221
13:20:22 <pano> s/RESOLUTION/RESOLVED/
13:20:26 <Dimitris> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2017Feb/att-0001/SHACLmetamodelhistory.pdf
13:20:52 <Nicky> dimitirs: I sent a mail this morning about the current version
13:21:35 <Nicky> dimitris: latest model improved the language, everthing is more lingual.
13:21:42 <Nicky> dimitris: still some problems
13:22:44 <Nicky> dimitris: it doenst make sense what type of shape it is. Therefore a simpeler hierarchy is created instead of different shape types
13:23:20 <Nicky> dimitris: propertyshapes and nodeshapes makes SHACL more complex than only just useshapes
13:23:26 <pano> q+
13:23:34 <hknublau> ack hknublau
13:23:55 <Nicky> dimitris: is there is no reason for it (type of shapes not used in the model), it makes it only confusing for the user
13:24:49 <hknublau> q+
13:24:54 <hknublau> ack pano
13:25:04 <Nicky> pano: See the problem, tradeoff between semanic enrichment and simplicity
13:25:44 <hknublau> ack hknublau
13:25:52 <Nicky> pano: semantic enrichtment makes the model a better sophisticated model, removing parts of this will make it more confusing
13:27:19 <Nicky> hknublau: returning all violations of the shapes important
13:27:47 <Nicky> hknublau: difference in violations between property and node shapes is important, because violation handling are determined by design
13:28:29 <Nicky> hknublau: possible to rename nodeShapes to just node, to resolve the asymmerty
13:29:30 <hknublau> ex:Class a owl:Class ; owl:onProperty ex:property ; owl:minCardinality 1 .
13:30:29 <Nicky> hknublau: The change is unhelpfull if we would remove the subclasses, because it is a normal way of defining the it with subclasses
13:30:47 <Nicky> hknublau: Owl and rdfs are working in the same way
13:31:28 <ipolikoff> Holger, we can't hear you
13:32:36 <Nicky> Tallted: hknublau proposal would be to change the range to only node shapes
13:32:57 <Nicky> ipolikoff: I find the current model clear
13:33:21 <Nicky> ... with the different constraintnodes
13:34:11 <Nicky> Tallted: I think we would to read the versions side by side
13:34:20 <ipolikoff> PROPOSAL: CLOSE ISSUE-221 by renaming sh:shape to sh:node and changing its range
13:34:37 <hknublau> CRAP! My meeting crashed
13:34:53 <hknublau> I talked 3 minutes to myself. Rejoining...
13:36:22 <hknublau> Webex crashed again. I will reboot.
13:37:10 <Nicky> ipolikoff: one other issue to deal with, on pre-binding
13:38:21 <Nicky> ... should dimitris proposal be rewritten
13:38:32 <Nicky> Tallted: no it is clear enough
13:39:29 <hknublau> hknublau has joined #shapes
13:40:15 <Nicky> ipolikoff: what is in the specs now, there should be one name changing and one range changing
13:40:53 <Nicky> ipolikoff: dimitris proposal is clear, the otherone should be clear as well
13:41:02 <Dimitris> q+
13:43:07 <Nicky> hknublau: Single concept of a shape has already been achieved in the current design by the subclasses of a shape
13:43:20 <Nicky> ... we do not gain anything by deleting the subclasses
13:43:31 <Nicky> ... it is a matter of taste
13:43:58 <Nicky> tallted: no body is looking for the argument at this moment
13:44:35 <Nicky> ... understand the clear definition in the draft for bookkeeping purposes
13:45:04 <hknublau> Proposal: rename sh:shape to sh:node, the values of sh:node must be well-formed node shapes.
13:45:22 <Nicky> ... unfortunatly a pdf instead of WIKI, WIKI could be easily edited by other users
13:46:05 <Nicky> ... it is clear what the situation was (like the scope and thoughts) while do the editing
13:46:20 <hknublau> ack Dimitris
13:46:34 <Nicky> ... by changing again the specs, this is causing all the reopens op closed issues
13:47:12 <pano> q+
13:47:22 <Nicky> pano: I think it is not true, that the different shape type have other behavioral.
13:47:59 <Nicky> pano: using sh:property has a other behaviour than using sh:shape
13:48:35 <hknublau> q+
13:48:37 <Nicky> s/<pano: using sh:property has a other behaviour than using sh:shape>/<dimitris: using sh:property has a other behaviour than using sh:shape>/
13:48:45 <TallTed> s/pano: using/ Dimitris: using/
13:49:06 <ipolikoff> ack pano
13:49:20 <TallTed> s/s\/pano/s pano
13:49:25 <ipolikoff> ack hknublau
13:51:07 <Nicky> hknublau: the difinitions of the different shape types are clear defined in the model
13:51:33 <Nicky> ... you can create invalid things everywhere
13:51:57 <Nicky> ipolikoff: we have to propose both
13:53:00 <Nicky> ipolikoff: strawpoll to know how people feel about the different proposals
13:53:34 <ipolikoff> STRAWPOLL: CLOSE ISSUE-221 by renaming sh:shape to sh:node and changing its range, the values of sh:node must be well-formed node shapes.
13:53:43 <hknublau> +1
13:55:26 <ipolikoff> STRAWPOLL: a) CLOSE ISSUE-221 by renaming sh:shape to sh:node and changing its range, the values of sh:node must be well-formed node shapes. b) do nothing c) removing sh:NodeShape and removing sh:propery
13:55:41 <hknublau> a) +1  b) +0.8  c) -1
13:55:44 <Dimitris> s/removing sh:NodeShape and removing sh:propery/removing sh:NodeShape, sh:PropertyShape and removing sh:propery
13:56:35 <TallTed> a +1  b +0.5  c 0
13:56:41 <Nicky> a) 0 b) +1 c) 0
13:56:50 <ipolikoff> a) +.5  b) +.5 c) -.8
13:56:56 <pano> a) +1 b) 0 c) -0.5
13:57:14 <Dimitris> a) -0.9 b) -0.8 c) +1
13:58:13 <Nicky> ipolikoff: A seems to have the most votes
13:58:35 <Dimitris> s/a) -0.9 b) -0.8 c) +1/a) -0.8 b) -0.9 c) +1
13:59:09 <TallTed> PROPOSAL: CLOSE ISSUE-221 by renaming sh:shape to sh:node and changing its range, the values of sh:node must be well-formed node shapes.
13:59:16 <ipolikoff> PROPOSAL: CLOSE ISSUE-221 by renaming sh:shape to sh:node and changing its range, the values of sh:node must be well-formed node shapes.
13:59:18 <hknublau> +1
13:59:23 <TallTed> +1
13:59:23 <pano> +1
13:59:25 <ipolikoff> +1
13:59:32 <Dimitris> -.8
13:59:33 <Nicky> +1
13:59:47 <ipolikoff> RESOLUTION: CLOSE ISSUE-221 by renaming sh:shape to sh:node and changing its range, the values of sh:node must be well-formed node shapes.
14:00:12 <hknublau> q+
14:00:14 <ipolikoff> ISSUE-222: Response to "On pre-binding"
14:00:14 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-222 Response to "On pre-binding".
14:00:15 <Nicky> ipolikoff: Issue 222 this regards email from peter, about pre-binding
14:00:25 <Nicky> ... shall we open the issue?
14:00:31 <TallTed> issue-222?
14:00:31 <trackbot> issue-222 -- Response to "On pre-binding" -- raised
14:00:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/222
14:00:37 <ipolikoff> PROPOSAL: OPEN ISSUE-222
14:00:44 <hknublau> +1
14:00:45 <Dimitris> +1
14:00:54 <hknublau> q-
14:00:55 <pano> +1
14:00:57 <ipolikoff> +1
14:01:10 <TallTed> +1
14:01:17 <ipolikoff> RESOLUTION: OPEN ISSUE-222
14:01:48 <Nicky> hknublau: andy knows this the best
14:02:10 <Nicky> ... good thing peter sent his comments upfront
14:02:42 <Nicky> ipolikoff: action item for andy, to propose additionts to the spec
14:03:09 <ipolikoff> PROPOSAL: Publish current working draft as (final) public working draft.
14:03:16 <hknublau> +1
14:04:47 <Nicky> nicky: Missing greaterThan and greaterOrEquals is there a reason
14:04:58 <Nicky> hknublau: can use them inverse
14:05:15 <Nicky> hknublau: we can use the lessthan inverse
14:05:30 <Nicky> Tallted: more work for implementation to have both
14:06:51 <ipolikoff> +1
14:06:52 <TallTed> +1
14:06:53 <Nicky> ipolikoff: we should open an issue so we can get opnions
14:06:55 <pano> +1
14:07:08 <Nicky> nicky: not necessary to open an issue, just noticed
14:07:16 <Nicky> +1
14:07:26 <Dimitris> 0
14:08:55 <Nicky> dimitris: the changed a lot last week, but I dont want to block the publication
14:09:02 <ipolikoff> RESOLUTION: Publish current working draft as (final) public working draft.
14:09:33 <Nicky> ipolikoff: that the text changed a lot, is the reason why we want to publish it, so more people can take a look at it
14:10:04 <Nicky> ... we publish the spec and we will see what happens
14:10:13 <hknublau> trackbot, end meeting
14:10:13 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
14:10:14 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been hknublau, Nicky, ipolikoff, Dimitris, TallTed, pano
14:10:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:10:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/02/01-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
14:10:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
14:10:23 <RRSAgent> I see no action items