15:47:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:47:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/01/31-wai-wcag-irc
15:47:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:47:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:47:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:47:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:47:30 <trackbot> Date: 31 January 2017
15:48:00 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
15:48:00 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:48:01 <Zakim> 1. Charter Update/Discussion [from interaccess]
15:48:01 <Zakim> 2. 'Proposal for modifying existing SC'  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/ModifySCs/ [from interaccess]
15:48:01 <Zakim> 3. Update from SC managers [from interaccess]
15:48:01 <Zakim> 5. Virtual F2F: Date TBD [from interaccess]
15:48:13 <Joshue108> zakim, clear agenda
15:48:13 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:48:32 <Joshue108> agenda+ Welcome to AGWG
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15:48:56 <Joshue108> agenda+ SC review process discussion
15:49:21 <Joshue108> agenda+ Update from SC managers
15:49:33 <Joshue108> agenda+ SC for review by the group https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SC_review_Jan2017/
15:49:37 <Joshue108> Chair: Joshue
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15:57:12 <AWK> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:57:12 <Zakim> Present: AWK, Rick_Johnson, Lauriat, Greg_Lowney, mattg, Rachael, MikeGower, jon_avila, Kathy, Makoto, JF, kirkwood, marcjohlic, Wayne, Laura, Lisa, Joshue108, MichaelC,
15:57:15 <Zakim> ... Mike_Pluke, erich, David_MacDonald, Judy, JohnRochford, Shwetank_Dixit, steverep, MoeKraft, KimD, Pietro, Mike, Elledge, JamesNurthen
15:57:17 <AWK> present: AWK
15:57:23 <AWK> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:57:23 <Zakim> Present: AWK
15:57:51 <AWK> zakim, agenda?
15:57:51 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:57:52 <Zakim> 1. Welcome to AGWG [from Joshue108]
15:57:52 <Zakim> 2. SC review process discussion [from Joshue108]
15:57:52 <Zakim> 3. Update from SC managers [from Joshue108]
15:57:52 <Zakim> 4. SC for review by the group https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SC_review_Jan2017/ [from Joshue108]
15:58:09 <KimD> +KimD
15:58:21 <AWK> agenda+ automated and manual processes
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16:00:14 <laura> laura has joined #wai-wcag
16:00:34 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #wai-wcag
16:01:44 <Greg> Greg has joined #wai-wcag
16:02:16 <Rachael> Rachael has joined #wai-wcag
16:02:54 <Lauriat> Lauriat has joined #wai-wcag
16:02:56 <Joshue108> present+ Joshue108
16:03:01 <Rachael> Present+ Rachael
16:03:04 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #wai-wcag
16:03:05 <JF> JF has joined #wai-wcag
16:03:11 <JohnRochford> present+
16:03:12 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
16:03:14 <JF> Present+ JF
16:03:14 <AWK> Scribes needed: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
16:03:31 <kirkwood> present+ kirkwood
16:04:07 <Lauriat> Present+ Lauriat
16:04:09 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
16:04:17 <laura> present+ Laura
16:04:24 <AWK_> AWK_ has joined #wai-wcag
16:04:35 <AWK_> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/31-wai-wcag-minutes.html AWK_
16:04:47 <Greg> present+ Greg_Lowney
16:04:53 <AWK_> rrsagent, set logs public
16:05:07 <David_MacDonald> Present+ David_MacDonald
16:05:13 <AWK_> Scribe list: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
16:05:14 <jeanne> preesnt+ jeanne
16:05:30 <AWK_> present+ Jeanne
16:05:31 <David_MacDonald> present+ David_MacDonald
16:05:32 <shwetank> shwetank has joined #wai-wcag
16:05:36 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #wai-wcag
16:05:37 <jeanne> scribe: jeanne
16:06:12 <jeanne> agenda?
16:06:36 <Rick_Johnson> Rick_Johnson has joined #wai-wcag
16:06:46 <Rick_Johnson> present+
16:06:57 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
16:06:58 <AWK_> present+ Rick_Johnson
16:07:13 <Ryladog> Present+ Katie_Haritos-Shea
16:07:13 <shwetank> present+
16:07:31 <MichaelC> present+
16:07:35 <AWK_> present+ shwetank
16:07:35 <JohnRochford> present+ JohnRochford
16:08:05 <jamesn> present+ JamesNurthen
16:08:18 <mattg> mattg has joined #wai-wcag
16:08:22 <Wayne> present+ Wayne
16:08:27 <mattg> present+ mattg
16:09:40 <JF> zakim, who is here?
16:09:40 <Zakim> Present: AWK, KimD, Joshue108, Rachael, JohnRochford, Kathy, JF, kirkwood, Lauriat, Laura, Greg_Lowney, David_MacDonald, Jeanne, Rick_Johnson, Katie_Haritos-Shea, shwetank,
16:09:44 <Zakim> ... MichaelC, JamesNurthen, Wayne, mattg
16:09:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see mattg, Ryladog, Rick_Johnson, Wayne, shwetank, AWK_, jamesn, JF, Kathy, Lauriat, Rachael, Greg, Glenda, laura, David_MacDonald, JohnRochford, AWK, anne_thyme, KimD,
16:09:44 <Zakim> ... RRSAgent, Joshue108, jeanne, Rossen, kirkwood, MichaelC, Zakim, yatil, trackbot
16:10:50 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 1
16:10:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome to AGWG" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:11:27 <steverep> steverep has joined #wai-wcag
16:11:41 <jeanne> Josh: Welcome to the Accessibility Guidelines Working Group. We have a charter for the next couple years.  Yay!
16:11:46 <steverep> present+steverep
16:11:47 <jeanne> [cheers]
16:11:49 <Glenda> present+ Glenda
16:12:16 <AWK_> regrets+ Jim_Smith, Makoto, Mike_Pluke, Lisa_Seeman, Marc_Johlic, Mike_Gower, Moe_Kraft, Mike_Elledge, Bruce_Bailey, Alastair_Campbell
16:12:24 <AWK_> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:12:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/31-wai-wcag-minutes.html AWK_
16:12:48 <jeanne> Josh: we are going to make a few changes, like our IRC channel. We will get in touch with those logistics.
16:12:51 <Ryladog> Present+ Katie_Haritos-Shea
16:13:22 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
16:13:22 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jeanne
16:13:28 <jeanne> q?
16:13:45 <David_MacDonald> q-
16:13:49 <Joshue108> ack gow
16:13:50 <Joshue108> ack dav
16:13:56 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
16:13:56 <Zakim> agendum 2. "SC review process discussion" taken up [from Joshue108]
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16:14:52 <jeanne> Josh: Success Criteria review process needs to be communicated better to the group.  Not to spend too much time on it.
16:15:16 <jeanne> ... there is some confusion about the process.
16:15:27 <Pietro> present+ Pietro
16:15:28 <jeanne> ... We have an intermediate review process
16:15:53 <jeanne> ... then we have a "end-type" review when the success criteria is ready
16:16:12 <AWK_> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:16:12 <Zakim> Present: AWK, KimD, Joshue108, Rachael, JohnRochford, Kathy, JF, kirkwood, Lauriat, Laura, Greg_Lowney, David_MacDonald, Jeanne, Rick_Johnson, Katie_Haritos-Shea, shwetank,
16:16:15 <Zakim> ... MichaelC, JamesNurthen, Wayne, mattg, steverep, Glenda, Pietro
16:16:17 <jeanne> ... also when to submit a pull request.  Only pull request after the success criteria is ready for review
16:16:47 <jeanne> ... havign a lot of pull requests with multiple commits is confusing. Then future comments should go there.
16:16:50 <Joshue108> q?
16:17:39 <Joshue108> good point
16:18:07 <jeanne> AWK: There are some nuances. It is ok to have multiple commits as long as they are on topic.  For example, a commit for a SC can be bundled with a commit for a glossary item.  That's ok for a pull request.
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16:18:41 <jeanne> ... the point request is that the pull request needs to be focused on the changes to the guidelines document, not the Understanding document and other changes
16:19:09 <AWK_> s/point request/point
16:19:11 <jeanne> Josh: The cleaner the commit and the pull request, the better.  It can be difficult to pick through multiple commits to find the meat of the success criteria.
16:20:21 <jeanne> ... I want the SC Managers to let the chairs know when the SC is ready, or if the SC is at a "crunch" point.
16:20:24 <Joshue108> q?
16:20:30 <JohnRochford> q+
16:20:35 <Joshue108> ack john
16:21:08 <jeanne> JohnR:  I have a lot of feedback on my SC, and I will go back to incorporate it.  How do I handle it when I have a new version?
16:21:21 <Pietro> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:21:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/31-wai-wcag-minutes.html Pietro
16:21:37 <AWK_> q+ to say please don't create a new issue
16:21:57 <jeanne> Josh:  You can put your new version in a new issue, and reference the older version. Github has features that can help you do that to reference the older version.  Then create a pull request.
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16:22:16 <jeanne> JohnR: Is it ok that it has a new number?
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16:23:34 <jeanne> AWK: There will be edits on that pull request.  You can go into Github and edit it, and push it forward again.  I think it will be difficult to change the numbers.  You still have your branch, and you can edit your branch.
16:23:38 <Joshue108> q?
16:23:40 <Joshue108> ack awk
16:23:40 <Zakim> AWK_, you wanted to say please don't create a new issue
16:23:49 <Glenda> I’ve been using the LVTF wiki to draft my changes. Then I meet with the LVTF and get their approval.  Then when we have consensus…I have Jim Allan update it on github for me.  I don’t know if that is the best way…but that is what I’m doing.
16:24:02 <Glenda> q+
16:24:18 <adam_solomon> present+ adam_solomon
16:24:18 <laura> q+
16:25:19 <jeanne> AWK: @@AWK, please reiterate your directions@@
16:25:41 <jeanne> Josh: Agree, that we will do the editing in the existing Github issue
16:25:51 <Joshue108> ack glenda
16:26:12 <AWK_> AWK: I think that when a pull request is commented on and needs changes, the SC manager should make the changes and resubmit the pull request.
16:27:15 <jeanne> Glenda: Perhaps I am being too careful in not creating too much noise.  I am working on the visual contrast issues,  there is a lot of back and forth.  I am working on it on the LVTF wiki, and when I get consensus, then I move it back into Github.  Is that ok?
16:28:12 <jeanne> Josh: I mostly want to do what works.  The advantage of Github is that we have a thread of comments to follow. The disadvantage is that we have comments in one place.
16:28:49 <jeanne> AWK: It is valuable to have the comments.  It is useful to bring it back to Github as often as possible because we want to have it all in one spot.
16:29:02 <Joshue108> ack laura
16:29:31 <jeanne> Laura: What's the best way to merge issues? We are talking about merging 74, 78, and 79.
16:29:45 <jeanne> ... we are merging them into one SC
16:30:25 <jeanne> AWK: When you create the pull request, put in a link to all the issues it came from.
16:30:44 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Ability_to_Override
16:30:55 <jeanne> Josh: You are creating a new Success Criteria and closing the existing ones.
16:31:29 <jeanne> David: Close 74 and 79 and keep 78 open.
16:31:47 <jeanne> Laura: I don't own them all.
16:32:12 <AWK_> AWK: right, issues might be merged before a pull request is made, or _as_ a pull request is made.
16:32:25 <jeanne> David: request that the other managers close their issues
16:32:39 <Joshue108> q?
16:33:09 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
16:33:09 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Update from SC managers" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:33:13 <jamesn> q+
16:33:49 <Kathy> q+
16:33:52 <jeanne> JamesN: I would appreciate some visibility of what is coming in the next week, so I can get other people to look at things.
16:34:04 <Glenda> q+
16:34:10 <jeanne> +1 to more advance warning of what is coming
16:34:34 <KimD> +1 to definitely needing more lead time of what is coming
16:34:40 <jeanne> JamesN:  I would like a week's advance knowledge so I can get input about others.
16:35:02 <Joshue108> q?
16:35:06 <Joshue108> ack jam
16:35:38 <jeanne> AWK: I don't know that we can promise it, but we can try.  WE are in a time crunch to get published.  We want to get heads-up from the people who are managing SC for more advance notice.  WE have a lot of discussion, but not a lot of advance notice.
16:35:50 <JF> +1 to jamesn as well
16:35:50 <jeanne> ... I appreciate the concern and share it.
16:36:24 <David_MacDonald> I think we're ready with this https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/2
16:36:38 <JF> Q+ to confirm that FPWD is also a good time for wider review
16:37:11 <jeanne> Josh: Surveys will be open.  If something comes out next week for a certain time, people can look at them and bring them to their teams.
16:37:13 <Joshue108> ack kathy
16:37:19 <Kathy> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/59
16:37:52 <jeanne> Kathy: One of the mobile ones we submitted on issue 59, we have consensus to defer that to Silver.  We will revisit in Silver.
16:38:36 <jeanne> ... a lot of the mobile SC we submitted are around keyboard.  Pointer has brought up a lot of questions and we need to address them in Silver.
16:38:43 <jeanne> q+
16:39:05 <Glenda> +1 to defer to silver
16:39:24 <jeanne> ... no one has picked it up to manage it, so I am bringing it forward
16:39:49 <David_MacDonald> +1 to defer
16:39:50 <Joshue108> q?
16:39:53 <jeanne> ack glenda
16:40:13 <jeanne> q+ Glenda
16:40:32 <Joshue108> ack jf
16:40:32 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to confirm that FPWD is also a good time for wider review
16:40:33 <JF> ack me
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16:41:49 <jeanne> JohnF: I want to follow up on JamesN comment. The FPWD is an opportune time for wider review.  My plan was once we had a FPWD to then collect more comments internally and comment then.  I'm concerned about signal to noise
16:42:39 <MichaelC> q+ to explain FPWD process
16:42:57 <jeanne> ... it is a firehose of information.  I'm trying to stay on track of the relevant things, and wait for a stability point to comment.
16:43:37 <jeanne> Josh: What we really want to talk about now is glaring errors.  There is some vetting done by the SC Managers and the Task Force.
16:43:51 <jeanne> ... once it is published, then we will look at it in more detail.
16:44:28 <jeanne> JohnF: There are a lot SMEs in Deque, and I want to gether them around and submit a coordinated response.  Many people whose feedback is valuable and useful
16:44:28 <Joshue108> ack jeanne
16:44:45 <Joshue108> JS: Returning to Kathys comment..
16:44:57 <Joshue108> JS: I would not like to see important SCs defered..
16:45:14 <Joshue108> JS: When a mod to an existing SC in 2.1 could address the issue.
16:45:30 <Joshue108> JS: It thought that the pointers were a good example of making a change to an existing SC.
16:45:37 <MichaelC> q+ to say we shouldn´t be deferring anything to Silver yet
16:46:12 <MichaelC> q+ to address delta SCs
16:46:15 <jeanne> Kathy: we have existing success criteria that are complex with a lot that needs to be considered. There is a lot in keyboard and carefully thing about.
16:46:30 <AWK_> q+ to say that the reason that 59 is recommended to defer is that no use cases where the issue only impacts people with disabilities were identified (instead of users in general)
16:46:38 <Rachael> q+
16:47:01 <jeanne> ... I agree with Jeanne, that if we make changes to existing SC, that would address some of it, but the Working Group had said that we would not make changes to existing SC.
16:47:22 <jeanne> ... if we can't make changes to existing SC, then it would have to be deferred to Silver.
16:47:24 <MichaelC> ack me
16:47:24 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to explain FPWD process and to say we shouldn´t be deferring anything to Silver yet and to address delta SCs
16:47:38 <jeanne> Michael: It's way too soon to defer to Silver.  That should be at the end of the process
16:48:03 <jeanne> ... in regard to delta success criteria, the decision was not to change existing SC at the beginning.
16:48:20 <Rachael> q-
16:48:30 <laura> q+ to say Animation from interactions #18 has consensus from the people participating in the issue. Pull request is ready.
16:48:38 <jeanne> ... I would suggest that you put in a delta success criteria, with details of how it would work with combining with existing SC.
16:48:57 <jeanne> ... the decision should be made later when we have everything in front of us.
16:49:13 <JF> Q+
16:49:45 <jeanne> ... the FPWD has nothing special about it. We can publish new drafts every day if we want. There should be key review points, and let people know that a draft is ready for wide review.
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16:50:27 <jeanne> JohnF: Once we have a FPWD, I thought we couldn't add more SC?
16:50:38 <jeanne> Michael: No, we can continue to add SC.
16:50:50 <jeanne> JohnF: then when should we have wide review?
16:51:01 <JF> ack me
16:51:03 <Glenda> For me, I see defer to silver logical when there are conflicts in solutions needed by different types of disabilities.  (and this may not apply to what Kathy brought up…but I’ve seen decisions in LVTF where we logically defer to silver due to conflicts in different needs of different types of disability)
16:51:04 <AWK_> q-
16:51:04 <jeanne> Michael: I think it should be more toward the end of the year.
16:51:14 <JF> s/JohnF/JF
16:51:45 <David_MacDonald> q+
16:51:56 <Joshue108> ack glenda
16:52:00 <jeanne> Josh: We don't want to publish everything. We want to do some weeding at this point, but we want to the world to see the work we have been working on for years.
16:52:14 <Glenda> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/SC_Managers_Phase1#Version_3_Changes_.28Jan_29.2C_2017.29_Incorporating_Comments_Round_2
16:52:23 <jeanne> Glenda: I have changes with Issue 10 Color Contrast.
16:52:57 <Joshue108> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/10
16:53:03 <jeanne> ... this is documented on the wiki, the most important thing is CSS pixels, and adding reference to the CSS pixels that Alastair did on Issue 9
16:53:35 <jeanne> ... there is an example of icons, that were causing issues, so we m oved them to issue 9
16:53:53 <Joshue108> ack laura
16:53:53 <Zakim> laura, you wanted to say Animation from interactions #18 has consensus from the people participating in the issue. Pull request is ready.
16:54:14 <Joshue108> ack david
16:54:14 <laura> Pull Request: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/pull/96/commits/ad8b5f43f707aa58d9257197d33a4b48b035dd0e
16:54:29 <jeanne> Laura: Issue 18 is ready to go for next time, so I will make a pull request.
16:54:39 <Joshue108> Thanks Laura - do pull PR URIs into the Notes and Status section of the SC managers page
16:55:38 <jeanne> David: Going back to Kathy's issue with 59. We need to be able allow ourselves to retire things.  We thought in the working group that it didn't apply to people with disabilities and was usability.
16:56:09 <jeanne> Kathy: There wasn't consensus in the TF about this, and that we have notes that a holistic approach with existing SC would be best.
16:56:19 <jeanne> Josh: There will be more discussion about this.
16:56:32 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
16:56:32 <Zakim> agendum 4. "SC for review by the group https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SC_review_Jan2017/" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:56:48 <JF> I need to duck out now for a client call. Thanks all!
16:56:54 <Joshue108> TOPIC: SC Proposal: accessible authentication #23
16:56:55 <jeanne> Josh: We have SC for review.
16:57:03 <Joshue108> accessible authentication #23
16:57:11 <Joshue108> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/23
16:57:18 <Joshue108> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/91
16:58:30 <jeanne> Josh: Accessible Authentication comments.
16:59:14 <jeanne> JamesN: Is this trying to eliminate passwords? There isn't a widely accepted alternative today, so that this would be making the Internet non-compliant.
16:59:28 <jeanne> ... my reading is that it requires no passwords.
16:59:47 <jeanne> JohnR: That isn't our intent and we will look at it to make it clear.
17:00:44 <Joshue108> q?
17:01:38 <Wayne> q+
17:02:00 <jeanne> AWK: What it seems to be saying is that either:  your authentication meets this, or if you don't, then you need to have an alternative.  I don't see what isn't something that requires memoriazation, even if it is only that you wrote down the password on a piece of paper.  I don't see how we can measure this.
17:02:36 <Joshue108> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/pull/91
17:02:38 <jeanne> Josh: the comments and feedback are rich. There is a pull request available.  I invite people to comment on the pull request.
17:02:45 <Joshue108> ack wayne
17:03:03 <jeanne> Wayne: Explain what you would want to see. What kind of interface would it be?
17:03:14 <jamesn> q+
17:03:15 <jeanne> JohnR: Biometric information.
17:03:41 <jeanne> ... a ring someone wears, or camera to recognize face.
17:03:55 <jeanne> Joah: Is that then requiring Biometric?
17:04:07 <Joshue108> ack jam
17:04:17 <Joshue108> s/Joah/Josh
17:04:22 <Greg> q+ to ask whether a site being compatible with UA password caching would count as complying
17:04:25 <jeanne> JohnR:  No, it is requiring that an alternative be offered.
17:04:50 <jeanne> JamesN: but then you are prohibiting passwords.
17:04:51 <Lisa_Seeman> passwords can be an option but not the only one
17:05:06 <Lisa_Seeman> there shoudl be an alternitive that people can use who can not use passwords
17:05:08 <Lauriat> q+
17:05:16 <jeanne> ... as well as a password, you would have to have some other way of authenticating into a system
17:05:52 <jeanne> James: The others are supplemental to password.  Even on iOS, you have to authenticate with a password.
17:05:56 <Lisa_Seeman> note there is a w3c speck on secure authetification that supports mulitple methods with handshaking
17:06:04 <Lisa_Seeman> using that spec supports conformance
17:06:09 <Glenda> I think the intent has to do with authentication that asks math questions
17:06:13 <Joshue108> ack greg
17:06:13 <Zakim> Greg, you wanted to ask whether a site being compatible with UA password caching would count as complying
17:06:27 <jeanne> James: 3rd party authentication is prohibited in some industries because people can lose control it.
17:06:39 <Greg> If a site is coded to be compatible with UA password caching, it offloads the memorization burden from the user.
17:06:41 <Joshue108> ack Laur
17:06:58 <jeanne> GregL: If people use @@@, then that would comply.
17:07:07 <Lisa_Seeman> note without this many many people can not use the website
17:07:38 <Joshue108> +1 Shawn
17:07:39 <jeanne> Shawn: Since this is not dependent on the authors themselves, I don't see how it would apply to authoors.  We need to get someone to help with security expertise.
17:07:43 <jeanne> +1 shawn
17:07:49 <jamesn> +1
17:08:04 <shwetank> with regards to alternatives to passwords, we should also keep in mind potential privacy issues, so big +1 to involving people proficient in the security domain to review that SC
17:08:23 <Greg> To answer the point raised, a site can be coded to be incompatible (or less compatible) with password caching. A simple example is where the username and the password are entered on separate pages, or where custom input controls are used.
17:08:25 <Lisa_Seeman> note that the w3c security standard support compliance
17:08:26 <jeanne> Josh: We will come back and review this
17:08:41 <Joshue108> q?
17:09:14 <jeanne> Wayne: If we can get the security issue to a reasonable amount, we should publish it  so we can get feedback from the wider security community.
17:10:10 <Lisa_Seeman> we did discuss it at TPAc with the security WG, this is completely compatable. authers just have to use the standard
17:10:16 <jeanne> RESOLUTION:  Issue 23 Accessible Authentication is not approved at this time and needs further work.  The SC manager will reiterate
17:10:18 <Greg> s/To answer the point raised/To answer the point raised by Shawn/
17:10:29 <Lisa_Seeman> Completely disagree
17:10:34 <Joshue108> TOPIC: SC Proposal: Manageable blocks #24
17:10:38 <Lisa_Seeman> please renter this when I can explain
17:10:43 <Joshue108> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/24
17:11:29 <jeanne> Josh: 4 Yes, and 5 Nos
17:12:10 <Lisa_Seeman> it was in the text
17:12:15 <Lisa_Seeman> of the SC
17:12:22 <David_MacDonald> q+
17:12:23 <Lisa_Seeman> benifits and techneques
17:12:45 <Lisa_Seeman> people should have to read the whole thing before voting against including people into accessibility
17:13:07 <Lisa_Seeman> if anything I said was new then people voted to exclude people without bothering to read the whole SC
17:13:17 <Wilco> +1 on reproduce argument
17:13:22 <jeanne> JamesN: SOmeone would have to read all the text to determine if it has only one idea.  There is no automated way to do that.  The first exemption could be apply to everything.  The last exemption would require user testing.  That will be impossible to reproduce.  People could disagree whether it passed.
17:13:43 <Joshue108> I like the sound of breaking up vids to shorter chunks also.
17:13:52 <jeanne> ... I like the media side, breaking media into smaller units is a good idea, but 6 minutes may be too arbitrary
17:13:54 <alastairc> Lisa_Seeman where was the security spec? I didn't see that in the github description, could you add that as a comment please?
17:14:03 <Lisa_Seeman> look at the links
17:14:13 <Lisa_Seeman> they show the reserch behind the 6 minuetes
17:14:25 <Lisa_Seeman> well based
17:14:35 <jeanne> JohnR: James, how can we make it better?
17:15:06 <jeanne> JamesN:  I haven't looked at everything, and haven't had time to be able to come up with ways of solving it.
17:15:37 <Wayne> q+
17:15:38 <jeanne> Josh:  These have been out for a while, and they are open to make more comments.
17:15:43 <Joshue108> ack david
17:16:10 <Joshue108> Would like the group to note that they can come back to these SCs over the coming weeks.
17:16:39 <jeanne> David: As someone who evaluates websites, I don't see how I could test it.  I could pick representative pages and extrapoloate, which we do in some areas.  It's a big requirement that is hard to test.
17:16:57 <Joshue108> We dont expect people to have perfect solutions instantly - the suggested SCs need time to percolate.
17:16:59 <Lisa_Seeman> As somone who test website I disagree
17:17:18 <Glenda> David, it made me think that if I had to test this…I would need a tool like the Hemingway App http://www.hemingwayapp.com (not to say this is a solution we would all agree on…but it was a possibility of how I could approach testing).  Then I felt like I was playing English teacher.
17:17:42 <jeanne> David: It is somewhat arbitrary and its a burden on corporations that are spending thousands on remediation.  I am open to change.
17:17:44 <Joshue108> ack wayne
17:18:19 <jeanne> Wayne: What is the scope on this kind of information?  It seems like a narrower scope of types of paragraphs. Would this be limited to instructions?
17:18:46 <shwetank> +1 to David's point of people testing internationally not being super  fluent in the language of the site being tested. Happy for comments who could change my view.
17:19:50 <Lisa_Seeman> scope is Important information. this has been defined
17:19:52 <Joshue108> I could see this working well as a recommendation or best practice but as a success criteria.
17:19:59 <jeanne> Wayne if it is something new written on the web, the writer may not have figured out the main point yet, but if it is instruction, then it makes sense for it to be restricted to one item. I think the scope need to be tightened.
17:20:43 <steverep> present+steverep
17:20:48 <jeanne> Josh: You are welcome to re-iterate and bring it back to the group. There are substantial points being made.
17:21:01 <Glenda> John, we moved to “essential” information instead of “important”.  You might want to think about that http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#essentialdef
17:21:23 <jeanne> JohnR: I think Accessible Authentication has a better chance, and I will work on that, and then work on Manageable Blocks.
17:21:51 <JohnRochford> * Thank you, Glenda.
17:22:01 <jeanne> RESOLUTION: Issue #24 Manageable Blocks was not accepted by the group and may have another iteration
17:22:14 <Joshue108> TOPIC: SC Proposal: Resize Content #77
17:22:16 <Joshue108> q?
17:22:22 <Joshue108> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/77
17:23:18 <jeanne> Josh: Resize content is issue 77.  7 people who accepted, and a few with recommended changes
17:23:21 <alastairc> BTW: Several comments on 77 were for the old text, please see https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/77#issuecomment-274900369
17:24:03 <alastairc> That's for JamesN, AWK, Greg
17:24:07 <jeanne> Glenda: I support it and just want clarity that it applies to all content.
17:24:19 <Wayne> q+
17:25:17 <jeanne> JamesN: I am concerned about applications that are emulating native, it seems to require responsive design and not every application should use responsive.  I'm thinking about IDE on the web, but toolbars could result in massive vertical scrolling
17:25:18 <Joshue108> ack way
17:25:20 <JohnRochford> q+
17:26:16 <jeanne> Wayne: This is taken in context with the ability to reflow.  When you start making extensive changes to the size and layout.  This is a tool for people who want to look at a page and use it, but not to the extent of doing deep work on it. It's a compromise betweewn the two.
17:26:48 <jeanne> Wayne: We don't care if you have to horizontal scroll to get to a block, only about horizontal scroll to read the block.
17:26:59 <alastairc> JamesN: Does the exception not work for that? Displaying code that doesn't reflow seems like essential to it's use.
17:27:09 <jeanne> Wayne: We dont' want people to hscroll to read a paragraph.
17:27:23 <Wilco> +1 to rewording, this isn't all too clear from the text
17:27:30 <alastairc> "Content can be resized to 400% without loss of content, functionality or requiring two-dimensional scrolling, except for parts of the content where fixed spatial layout is essential to use or meaning."
17:27:32 <Glenda> +1 to Wayne’s focus on horizontal scrolling on each line.   (horizontal scrolling for a block is okay)
17:27:48 <jeanne> JamesN:  You need to reword to address that, and it is not clear in the SC as is.
17:27:49 <shwetank> +1 to rewording from my side too.
17:27:52 <David_MacDonald> q+
17:27:56 <jeanne> Wayne: We will owork on this
17:27:57 <Joshue108> ack john
17:28:22 <Joshue108> s/owork/work
17:28:46 <jeanne> JohnR: The manageable block is 5 to 4.  What is the criteria that we reject it?
17:29:12 <KimD> *I voted late, it's 4 accepts and 6 do not accept
17:29:12 <Glenda> For Issue 24, at least 2 of the “accepted” are on the condition that it move to AAA
17:29:31 <jeanne> Josh: There were substantial objections. The criteria for acceptance is that the group thinks it is on the right track.
17:30:04 <jeanne> ... what are the nuances at any particular time?  We have to make a call on it.
17:30:22 <jeanne> ... there may be objections, but you may get a good idea and know how you want to address it.
17:30:32 <Joshue108> ack davi
17:30:37 <Joshue108> zakim, close queue
17:30:37 <Zakim> ok, Joshue108, the speaker queue is closed
17:31:00 <jeanne> David: Blocks of text instead of text as a suggestion for Wayne on 77
17:31:20 <jeanne> RESOLUTION: Issue 77 Resize Content is accepted with minor changes
17:31:52 <jamesn> there is an accept with changes in #9
17:34:20 <David_MacDonald> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/58
17:34:50 <jeanne> (discussion of the survey structure and what links to the survey. )
17:35:10 <jeanne> Look for more information in the survey, the links may not always be obvious.
17:35:12 <Glenda> Congrats on the Charter!  Well done, y’all!
17:35:34 <jeanne> RESOLUTION: Issue #9 Informational Graphic content is accepted by working group
17:36:38 <jeanne> Issue 58 will stay open to be addressed next week.
17:36:50 <laura> bye.
17:36:55 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
17:36:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/31-wai-wcag-minutes.html jeanne
17:39:00 <KimD> KimD has left #wai-wcag
17:43:24 <Lisa_Seeman> I added the link in the comments
17:43:33 <Lisa_Seeman> it was brought as the first tequneque
17:44:07 <Lisa_Seeman> my 2 cents if this SC does not go though then WCAG 2.1 is a jolk
17:44:15 <Lisa_Seeman> not a funny one
17:44:29 <Lisa_Seeman> (Accessible authetification)
17:45:55 <Lisa_Seeman> A basic question we need to ask is if we need wcag to enble content to be accessible to people with any cognitive disabilities
17:46:07 <Lisa_Seeman> and is that an important thing
17:46:18 <Lisa_Seeman> if we do we need to find ways to include this stuff
17:46:27 <Lisa_Seeman> and if we dont we are weisting our time.
18:01:10 <laura> laura has left #wai-wcag
18:46:55 <jeanne> trackbot, bye
18:46:55 <trackbot> trackbot has left #wai-wcag
18:47:16 <jeanne> rrsagent, bye
18:47:16 <RRSAgent> I see no action items