19:52:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:52:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/01/31-aapi-irc
19:52:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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19:53:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
19:53:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
19:53:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
19:53:01 <trackbot> Date: 31 January 2017
19:54:30 <clown> clown has changed the topic to:  https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m111076a5138536589c06d9b5c35ffb51 Meeting Number: 641 707 405 Next Meeting 07-Feb-2017, 20:00 UTC
19:54:41 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:55:30 <clown> agenda: this
19:55:37 <clown> agenda+ GH-ISSUE-513: (All/Joanie) Mapping of role="region" when it doesn't have an accessible name.
19:55:42 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1707 (Joseph/All) pending final review.
19:55:51 <clown> agenda+ (All) Specifying AAPI UIA interface in focus events table
19:55:58 <clown> agenda+ (All) update on AX API GH-ISSUEs
19:56:06 <clown> agenda+ (All) aria-label and the accname-aam
19:56:17 <clown> agenda+ (All) aria-labelledby and the accname-aam
19:56:23 <clown> agenda+ Triage issues/actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23
19:56:30 <clown> agenda+ Triage core-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA
19:56:37 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA
19:56:45 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26
19:56:50 <clown> agenda+ be done.
19:59:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
20:01:58 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
20:02:14 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:02:29 <joanie> scribe: joanie
20:02:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:03:16 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
20:03:16 <Zakim> agendum 1. "GH-ISSUE-513: (All/Joanie) Mapping of role="region" when it doesn't have an accessible name." taken up [from clown]
20:03:41 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/513#issuecomment-276150266
20:03:42 <joanie> JS: This is the recent request to change the mapping for role="region" if it doesn't have a name.
20:03:48 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-region
20:03:56 <joanie> JS: We agreed to the changes, which I made (see URL above)
20:04:40 <joanie> JS: For each AAPI, I added a special case to use the native host language mapping rather than landmark when the region has no name.
20:05:17 <joanie> JS: My feeling is that since Joanie opened the issue in Github, it's her job to close it.
20:05:32 <joanie> JS: That practice is something I've encountered in other projects.
20:05:45 <joanie> JS: So I will leave it to Joanie to close it, unless she says "no"
20:05:59 <joanie> RS: I'm fine with the changes.
20:06:13 <joanie> JS: What is our practice for closing issues in our group?
20:06:22 <joanie> JS: Who has the responsibility or the privilege.
20:06:34 <joanie> RS: I think the chair of the task force has the right to do it.
20:06:41 <joanie> RS: Why should we change what works.
20:06:49 <joanie> s/works./works?/
20:08:08 <joanie> JD: I tend to close issues I am pretty sure I did correctly (e.g. with the ARIA spec, as editor).
20:08:34 <joanie> JD: But I add the comment that if the reporter finds any problems with my change, he/she should feel free to reopen.
20:09:01 <joanie> JD: And it sounds like what you did is correct, though I'm scribing and cannot check.
20:09:05 <joanie> JD: So go ahead and close it.
20:09:08 <joanie> JS: Done.
20:09:11 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:09:11 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1707 (Joseph/All) pending final review." taken up [from clown]
20:09:14 <clown> action-1707
20:09:14 <trackbot> action-1707 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Edit the AXAPI mapping table for roles presentation and none to specify that when applied to tables and lists, the children are exposed as AXStaticText accessibles. -- due 2016-12-06 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:09:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1707
20:09:31 <joanie> JS: This was, up until quite recently, just changing a mapping in AXAPI.
20:09:42 <joanie> JS: But it has since turned into something bigger and more general.
20:09:43 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-none
20:09:50 <joanie> JS: Joanie suggested reversing the text.
20:10:05 <joanie> JS: Link to the general rule first, and then state the specific cases.
20:10:16 <joanie> JS: That's what I've done (see above URL)
20:10:23 <joanie> JS: (Reads from spec)
20:10:53 <joanie> RS: You're saying empty containers should be pruned?
20:10:57 <joanie> JS: Yes.
20:13:14 <joanie> JS: Anything else that needs to be done here, or can I close it?
20:13:21 <joanie> JD: Looks good to me. Rich?
20:13:32 <joanie> RS: Agreed.
20:13:40 <joanie> JS: Closing it then.
20:13:47 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:13:47 <Zakim> agendum 3. "(All) Specifying AAPI UIA interface in focus events table" taken up [from clown]
20:14:02 <joanie> JS: Rich asked me to do this awhile ago.
20:14:10 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#focus_state_event_table
20:14:14 <joanie> JS: I had some second thoughts and so wanted to talk more about it.
20:14:26 <joanie> JS: There's a focus state table (URL above).
20:14:39 <joanie> JS: You (Rich) wanted to know the interface associated with what is in the table.
20:14:57 <joanie> JS: We discussed this further via Skype.
20:15:18 <joanie> JS: And we decided to follow up with Bogdan to get the information.
20:15:40 <joanie> JS: But then it occurred to me that this issue applies to all accessibility APIs; not just UIA.
20:15:50 <joanie> JS: So do we really want to do this?
20:16:08 <joanie> RS: They have a bunch of control patterns in UIA.
20:16:37 <joanie> RS: Maybe it doesn't mater if Microsoft is going to do manual testing.
20:16:50 <joanie> JS: But they started the whole manual testing.
20:17:16 <joanie> RS: They may have had a change in available resources, but they do not have an ATTA.
20:17:34 <joanie> RS: I'm writing tests and I need to know what tests to write for automated testing.
20:17:50 <joanie> RS: Joanie has provided some mappings for ATK/AT-SPI2.
20:17:56 <joanie> JS: But not for the focus table.
20:18:04 <joanie> RS: Right, not for the focus table.
20:18:26 <joanie> RS: UIA has properties and all these different interfaces, so I've had to look around to see where things are.
20:18:36 <joanie> JS: I can then go ahead and email Bogdan.
20:18:45 <joanie> JS: But just for the focus table, or for everything?
20:19:06 <joanie> JS: I'm looking at the mapping for progress bar, and the control pattern is progressbar.
20:19:16 <joanie> RS: But now you have a range value pattern.
20:19:33 <joanie> JS: Yes, it has the range value pattern too, but I don't know where that is.
20:19:55 <joanie> RS: I'm looking at the test harness for range values.
20:20:08 <joanie> RS: As an example, scroll bar.
20:20:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#default_values:_role.3D.22scrollbar.22
20:21:08 <joanie> RS: (Reads from URL above)
20:21:34 <joanie> RS: I can figure it out for testing purposes.
20:22:11 <joanie> JS: I think the person running the test needs to know about the patterns and how to access them.
20:22:40 <joanie> RS: But it would be nice to have more specific information, especially for automation.
20:22:55 <joanie> JS: So do you want it for all tables?
20:23:13 <joanie> RS: There are already places we do this in the spec.
20:23:19 <joanie> RS: And I think it's good to be specific.
20:23:34 <joanie> JS: I'll ask Bogdan for this information.
20:24:15 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:24:15 <Zakim> agendum 4. "(All) update on AX API GH-ISSUEs" taken up [from clown]
20:24:38 <joanie> JS: There are a whole bunch of Github issues for AX API mappings.
20:25:00 <joanie> JS: As Joanie goes through and looks for things for WebKitGtk, she will tell us if anything is being done for these issues.
20:25:13 <joanie> JS: And we can update things as we go.
20:25:36 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:25:36 <Zakim> agendum 5. "(All) aria-label and the accname-aam" taken up [from clown]
20:25:57 <joanie> JS: I've been getting hit with emails and Github issues related to the AccName computation.
20:26:06 <joanie> JS: aria-label was done entirely via email.
20:26:26 <joanie> JS: I seem to have addressed James Craig's concerns and no one has objected.
20:26:33 <clown> "if the current node has an aria-label attribute whose value is not the empty string and does not consist only of white space"
20:26:41 <joanie> JS: He was concerned about what does "non-empty" really mean?
20:26:51 <joanie> JS: So I proposed the text I've quoted above.
20:27:04 <joanie> JS: Anyone object to that change?
20:27:09 <joanie> RS: No
20:27:30 <joanie> JS: There's a similar statement related to aria-labelledby, and a similar concern.
20:28:52 <clown> Current wording is:  "if aria-labelledby is non-empty, then …"
20:29:23 <clown> First suggested change:  "if the aria-labelledby attribute is non-empty and contains at least on vaild IDREF, then …"
20:29:54 <clown> Second suggested change:  "if the aria-labelledby attribute contains at least on vaild IDREF, then …"
20:30:39 <joanie> JS: Before I make the change, I'll propose it on the Github issue and see what he thinks.
20:31:11 <joanie> JS: Does anyone here have objections to those changes?
20:32:05 <joanie> RS: I think it's fine.
20:32:38 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:32:38 <Zakim> agendum 6. "(All) aria-labelledby and the accname-aam" taken up [from clown]
20:32:56 <joanie> JS: We just talked about this under the previous item.
20:33:00 <joanie> Zakim, close this item
20:33:00 <Zakim> agendum 6 closed
20:33:01 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:33:01 <Zakim> 7. Triage issues/actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23 [from clown]
20:33:05 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:33:05 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Triage issues/actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23" taken up [from clown]
20:33:30 <clown> actions-1681?
20:33:35 <clown> action-1681?
20:33:35 <trackbot> action-1681 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose new wording, as an editorial change only to clarify the inclusion rules in section 5.1.2 -- due 2016-12-06 -- OPEN
20:33:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1681
20:33:45 <joanie> JS: I'm working on this.
20:34:01 <joanie> JS: We had a bunch of rules in the spec regarding when role presentation is overridden.
20:34:12 <joanie> JS: Rich added text to the ARIA spec.
20:34:24 <joanie> JS: I need to make corresponding changes in Core AAM.
20:34:31 <joanie> RS: I thought you'd done this already.
20:34:41 <joanie> JS: No, but I hope to have it done by next week.
20:35:02 <clown> action-1732?
20:35:02 <trackbot> action-1732 -- Michael Cooper to Work on conformance section for mappings (note there is a section, but change id=conformance so respec picks up) -- due 2015-10-14 -- OPEN
20:35:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1732
20:35:18 <joanie> JS: On action-1732, I'll ping Michael Cooper.
20:35:26 <clown> action-2056?
20:35:27 <trackbot> action-2056 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Coordinate the mappings for the various AAPIs of the enumerated aria-haspopup values -- due 2016-06-07 -- OPEN
20:35:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2056
20:35:44 <joanie> JS: This might be not relevant any more
20:35:57 <joanie> JS: There's a discussion between James and Rich about relationships.
20:36:05 <joanie> JS: Is this one of the Github issues?
20:36:13 <joanie> JS: What James is saying is that we don't need this.
20:36:43 <joanie> JS: (Reads from issue)
20:36:58 <joanie> JS: But James has not made any other comments in tracker.
20:37:04 <joanie> JS: I'll check Github.
20:37:14 <joanie> JS: I don't see a Github issue for this. Why not?
20:37:36 <joanie> RS: I don't think we made an issue to this.
20:37:50 <joanie> JS: Should I put "unimplemented" in the Core AAM?
20:38:01 <joanie> RS: No. Microsoft is doing something similar.
20:38:23 <joanie> JS: There are mappings in AXAPI, show-menu and press actions.
20:38:33 <joanie> JS: Microsoft has the expand/collapse pattern. That's it.
20:38:45 <joanie> JS: I'm inclined to close this action if it's alright with everyone.
20:38:48 <joanie> RS: Ok.
20:39:26 <joanie> JS; Closed.
20:39:33 <joanie> s/JS;/JS:/
20:39:47 <clown> action-2017?
20:39:47 <trackbot> action-2017 -- Cynthia Shelly to Look at annotation overlap with aria-linktype -- due 2016-03-04 -- CLOSED
20:39:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2017
20:39:52 <clown> aciton-2057?
20:39:59 <clown> action-2057?
20:40:00 <trackbot> action-2057 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Suggest that axapi mapping of role="form" should be a landmark in the AXSubRole. -- due 2016-05-03 -- OPEN
20:40:00 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2057
20:40:24 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-form
20:42:01 <joanie> JD: I've done a number of the WebkitGtk + Safari issues (and in some cases implementations).
20:42:17 <joanie> JD: But right now I cannot recall if I did this or not, and would need to review my commits, etc.
20:42:28 <joanie> JS: Ok, I'll leave this open and not change the due date.
20:42:30 <joanie> JD: Fine.
20:42:50 <clown> action-2117?
20:42:50 <trackbot> action-2117 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Update core-aam to not expose aria-details relationships that reference elements that are hidden. -- due 2016-09-22 -- OPEN
20:42:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2117
20:43:24 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaDetails
20:44:34 <joanie> RS: The problem is that if you go there and there's nothing there to navigate within, you wind up in the aether.
20:44:36 <clown> https://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-details
20:44:46 <joanie> JS: The spec URL is above.
20:45:06 <joanie> JS: Looking at the example 18 you have a paragraph that might be hidden.
20:45:37 <joanie> JS: I can see why you wouldn't expose it, because there's nothing to expose.
20:45:50 <joanie> JS: The mappings on all platforms is a pointer of some kind.
20:46:12 <joanie> JS: So is this as simple as adding a sentence, if the details element is not present, do not expose a relationship?
20:46:22 <joanie> RS: If the *referenced* details element is not present....
20:46:31 <joanie> JS: In the accessibility tree.
20:46:42 <joanie> RS: I'm sure the browsers handle this already.
20:46:53 <joanie> RS: Do we have to write a test for this?
20:46:59 <joanie> JS: We probably should.
20:49:03 <clown> "If the referenced details accessible object is not present in the accessibility tree (e..g,. because the details are hidden), do not expose {the relationship}"
20:49:16 <joanie> JS: Proposed text above.
20:50:01 <joanie> JS: For each accessibility API, I'd adjust "{the relationship}" to reflect that API's mapping.
20:50:13 <joanie> JS: I'll reassign this issue to me.
20:51:42 <clown> action-2130
20:51:42 <trackbot> action-2130 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Determine if AX AXPI supports an event if the accessible description changes. -- due 2016-12-20 -- OPEN
20:51:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2130
20:52:59 <joanie> JD: I emailed Apple, I need to follow up.
20:53:10 <joanie> JD: But the short answer is "no".
20:53:53 <joanie> JS: I've heard this is handy for tooltips.
20:59:06 <joanie> JS: Can you (Joanie) update 2130 and then change the owner to me?
20:59:09 <joanie> JD: Sure.
21:00:40 <joanie> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
21:01:05 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
21:01:22 <joanie> Zakim, part
21:01:22 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Bryan_Garaventa
21:01:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
21:01:30 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop